Darius West

Starbrow's Rebellion is in 1613, while the First Invasion of Prax (the one we are discussing) is in 1608, so I can't agree with your initial statement as it doesn't fit the chronology Soltkakss. In fact, the Second Invasion of Prax happens in 1610 happens prior to Starbrow's Rebellion in 1613 too. Given that the line of Dorasar, which is part of the Lineage of Sartar is still alive in New Pavis, obviously the Lunars have a vested interest in wiping it out, and of course many Sartarites had been fleeing East to New Pavis since the Lunar conquest of Sartar in 1602, so Prax and New Pavis certainly wasn't short of Sartarites who hated the empire, but that doesn't seem to have been the motive for the first invasion.

These are good points Corvantir. The territory could (logically, if not practically) be conquered quickly with limited forces, and the Sable Riders should logically come to the support of the Lunars. Of course the land itself is not exactly economically enticing to the Lunars, given that it is a great big prairie and the Lunars would regard that as a desert. As to the city controlling ancient artefacts, if the intention was to invade New Pavis then the Lunars really came up short on that one in Invasion of Prax 1. This leads me to David Scott's observation about New Pavis hiding Sartarite royals: Well, the Lunars do have a vested interest in wiping out the Sartar Royal house, and they have their own dedicated assassins. You have to assume that they have captured enough household archives and retainers that they can figure out that the Line of Dorasar is a remote but plausible threat to the occupation, especially if someone who has some ability to see through Time gets a vision that the Empire's problems start in New Pavis, as some of the HQ literature alludes to. So the notion that the aim was to conquer New Pavis is not implausible, and was certainly on the agenda in Invasion of Prax 2 (Electric Boogaloo?). As to the notion that the aim was to take/ create a blue water harbor at Corflu, my reading might be superficial, but I get the feeling that this became a mission of the occupation under Sor-Eel the Short, and turned into a massive Bubble economy for the Empire due to frontier corruption, mainly created by Sor-Eel the Short (who we might imagine as being Danny De Vito playing Julius Caesar as if he were Al Capone, or at least that's how I think of him 😁).

Pleased to hear it scott-martin, and I must say I am very gratified by the quality of the comments, so, thanks to everyone. I enjoyed your contribution so I have a few questions to tease your thoughts out a bit more. This is interesting, given that the high command is Fazzur at the time, and he's generally regarded as being the apogee of Lunar military genius. I suspect the reasoning for the attack was likely very logical, and the desperation set in later. My revised theories on that motivation are these: (1) The First invasion was a "punitive" expedition after the Roman and/or European Colonial model. The Praxians had raided into Sartar and clashed with the Lunars, and the Lunars felt that they had to punish the Praxians. The seeming lack of motive is then explained, as punitive expedition tend to have very vague objectives of 'hurt the Praxians', and that lack of clear motivation is then expressed in a lack of a clear strategic objective to fulfil. Given too much rope, the expedition commander proceeds to be given command of the wrong type of units, misjudges the style of warfare (they should be following the Yara-Aranis, anti-Pentan doctrine), and it is a bit of a wonder that the force manages to get out of Prax without being massacred. This theory imo is a good fit for the evidence we have. (2) The First invasion is an unprovoked rush for the sea. The Lunars are hungry for access to the Homeward Ocean, and having been denied ports by the Holy Country, they want to set up a port on the Delta of the River of Cradles. They follow Caravan Alley trying to make a B-line for their objective, trying to garrison and control the oases along the way, but forces left behind don't have adequate time to fortify and get wiped out. Due to the presence of the Antelope Lancers, the army is able to survive in Prax better than might be expected, and that, along with some fast talking diplomacy in a desperate situation prevents the massacre. (3) This leads on from your Belintar reference. The aim of the First Invasion was to provide a system of supply depots for a future invasion of the Heortlands from south of the Stormwalks, aiming to capture God Forgot and the southern Heortlands, rather than trying to tackle the more obvious path through Hendrikiland, where they might well find themselves facing a Second Building Wall Battle if they try. This is how the Empire will get their blue water port, and perform a surprise attack on the Orlanthi who will all be looking to their northern frontier. (4) Some charge crazy Rupert managed to convince his majesty that Fazzur lacked vision, and that Rupert (thanks to his superior inbreeding) could conquer the whole of Prax easily as the Praxians are just ignorant savages, armed with bone tipped tools, who ride silly animals. It is only due to the quality and training of the Lunar Officers under Rupert that the force manages to maintain cohesion and a complete disaster is averted while Fazzur tut-tuts into his beard in Boldhome, determined not to pull Rupert's fat out of the fire until he squeals uncle. It is an interesting idea Scott-martin save for the pronounced paucity of evidence. If the Lunars were aiming to hijack Mostali tech, there are closer and richer places to go after. If they have done any research at all, they will likely realize that the dwarves of the Big Rubble and Copper Caves aren't replete with guns like some of the other Mostali settlements. The notion of using the tunnels of the Copper Caves to go after Diamond Mountain is interesting, but logistically unsupportable. I mean... Carting enough supplies for an army into the middle of a desert so you can then mule train them through a cave system following your Lunar Spelunking Corps won't scow imo. The easier approach would be a major diplomatic push for Isidilian's support in Dragon Pass and then betray him and steal his tech. Except that I thought that the Dwarf Plan incorporated and foretells of the rise of the Red Moon as part of the repair of the world machine and sees the Lunars as a good thing. Potentially this is a source of fresh allies for the Lunars, and an existential threat to the Orlanthi I would suggest. Well, given that the sub-kingdoms/satrapies of the Holy Country incorporates all the Elemental Runes into its terrain except the Moon, this would track. The logical place to look would be God Forgot. The Red Moon Goddess spent a long time being dead and broken, and God Forgot also has a problem with its gods being a bit non-existent too. Perhaps there is a correlation?

First, thanks for the detailed replies David, they are appreciated. As to Dwarf Knoll and the Copper Caves, I suspect that one of the old machines is leaking or diverting a considerable amount of water, enough for it to produce a reliable oasis. The old Prax Map from RQ2 definitely includes Dwarf Knoll as an oasis, and other publications have made mention that it has its own human population of Oasis people living there, as well as Mostali in the Copper Caves that lie beneath the Dwarf Knoll. Do you perhaps mean that the Lunars hope to release Wakboth from under the Block? 😈 Well, technically you are absolutely correct. There are zero oases on the Pavis Road. In practice however, diverting off to Moonbroth and Dwarf Knoll for a day or so is a pretty normal behavior for merchants and other travelers using the road, assuming that they are otherwise welcome in the territory, and far from unthinkable for an army that needs a water supply. Of course it is highly unlikely that the Lunars were welcome at all, and likely had multiple Praxian warbands 'nipping' at them the whole time. Heh, this makes a lot more sense given the new RQG maps than the old RQ2 one. I would describe this as pretty much a Caravan Alley invasion route, and I tend to agree with your interpretation of the campaign route. I wonder if Chaosium will ever officially comment on the issue.

The term investments is a modern one, but essentially it means spending money to acquire assets that will generate wealth, and it has been going on since before humans invented agriculture in one form or another. Educating your young? That's a retirement investment to a tribal person. In terms of Sartar, roads, cities, inns and libraries are all investments, like it or not, and if they can be invested in, why not industries too? If the Prince owns his own herd of horses, or his own estates, that is an investment as well, and frankly for any crown authority not to control some sort of industrial monopoly on something would be just odd, historically speaking. The classic bronze age example of such a monopoly is that monarchs owned tin or copper mines and/or smithies, and the smiths were often slaves, better treated than most, but crippled deliberately to stop them fleeing with their metallurgical secrets (hence the crippled smith archetype best personified by Hephaestus), the research for which had likely been funded by the monarch, and they didn't want that information being spread.

Umm... Or you can read that as her being an utterly unspeakable bitch to her boyfriends, many of whom leave after they discover that they cannot trust her an inch, or get killed in nasty ways following her agenda. As for being obsessed with Lancelot, well (a) everyone is obsessed with Lancelot, he's a perfect Mary Sue who is only redeemed to literary humanity by his adultery, and (b) Imagine the damage Morgan could do with Lancelot in her camp. I have read uncharitable souls who describe the Arthurian Romances as the "Apotheosis of Simping", which I thought was very uncharitable but viciously funny nonetheless. In the case of Morgan Le Fay, I'd say that the relationship became intolerably abusive even for the poor masochistic souls who would normally be prepared to knee-walk from Camelot to Inverness for the sake of Fine Amor.

She would be pretty weird for a XU priestess (or maybe she didn't like the party much). Xiola Umbar priestesses have no restrictions on killing after all, and that used to be most of the attraction to playing them, they were the only non-pacifist healing cult for quite a while back in RQ2 times. In my experience, Xiola Umbar priestesses weren't exactly front line fighters, but they were very partisan and were quite happy to stave in the heads of wounded enemies and then dig in and eat the brains before they got cold. They were only remotely sentimental about troll lives for the most part, oh, and ransoms; they really got sentimental about ransoms.

So here's the thing. What was the Lunar motive for the invasion? We know that the Lunars were more than a little interested in having a path to the Ocean, but they needed a context for an invasion. Had the Praxians been raiding into Dragon Pass or even raiding Etyries merchants going to New Pavis? Or perhaps the Praxians had been offering protection to members of the Sartarite Royal house? Which oases did they get to and in what order? It is logical to assume that they started in occupied Sartar, but did they follow the Pavis Road or did they go down Caravan Alley? At what point in the campaign do they head home? Did they make it to the oases in the Head Acres? We can assume that the treaty meeting in the Paps didn't involve the entire Lunar army encamping there. Who led the Lunar expedition? While we can assume that Fazzur is in charge of the army, was he the leader of this campaign? Was this Sor-Eel's first foray? Whoever led the invasion hardly covered themselves in glory, and no doubt the propagandists had to work hard to make the fiasco seem like a victory of sorts. Which tribes were involved in harrying the Lunars? It is more than likely that the Bisons and Impala's were involved, but who else? Had the Sables gone fully pro-Lunar yet? Were the High Llamas involved? What about the morokanths, ostriches, bolo lizards, pol joni? We can assume the foot tribes weren't especially interested or necessary for this one? Which Lunar units were involved? Were they cavalry-heavy or mainly hoplites and peltasts? Which units went? Does Nomad Gods perhaps have a scenario that might be the first invasion? (Idk, as I don't own Nomad Gods).

Does anyone know where to find more info on this than is in the RQG rules?

Ah, Rurik. I remember when he got into his first fight in Gimpy's. He was using a club no less, and badly. I doubt he's even allowed to touch a club unless he's being belted with one these days.

The Crimson Bat isn't a primordial bat deity. It is a perfectly ordinary bat that fell into chaos ooze and rolled well on the Chaos features table. I am pretty sure it turned into a broo though.😈

Hey, np, glad to be of service. My take on ancient theology is that the gods, being outside of time, were always able to predict events in advance, and keep themselves out of all but the most avoidable trouble. Daimons however were just powerful, but the gods could always predict them into a corner they couldn't get out of if the Daimon became a problem.

In Glorantha, a demon seems to be any entity summoned from another plane that you don't happen to like. You could say that there is a degree of demonization going on. 😈 IRL, the term demon comes from the Greek word Daimon, which referred to non-divine supernatural beings of great power, including the spirits of heroes and some lesser gods and demigods. The crucial distinction between a divine entity and a mere daimon is discussed at length in Iamblchus' "On the Mysteries", wherein the Hellenic-Egyptian Priest Mantheo (in the Roman Era) discusses at length a great deal of the inner workings of pre-Christian theology with a Greek Philosopher. The TL/DR version is that true deities, 'divinities' are separated from daimons, because divinities are extratemporal and thus can perform reliable prophecy and divination. So the word 'divine', actually references the practice of 'divination'. It is an interesting distinction, because in essence it means that in the ancient world, a deity could be able to pull down mountains, but if they couldn't provide a Divination spell, they weren't a real god, if translating Hellenic Egyptian theology into RQ rules terms. Obviously the term demon is now synonymous with the Christian idea of demons i.e. hostile supernatural entities, but that is based on the hostile reinterpretation of what Daimons were. For example, if someone developed telekinetic power, or was fantastically strong, within the context of ancient Greece, you could say they had realized their Daimon. The term has much in common with the idea of a guardian angel, an idea that has often skated the borders of heresy in Christianity. The fact is that in Glorantha there aren't any rules of classification for what is and isn't a demon unless we invent it and retrofit the definition to cover all the facts.

You can buy up pasture and cropland, or have land cleared. You can invest in roads and bridges that you can then tax. You can invest in merchant trains to expand them in return for a portion of the ongoing profit, or start your own. A ruler may well want to invest in a winery so that you won't be at the mercy of the local market. It makes sense to invest in quarries as few people besides kings can afford major capital works. If you can obtain title to a mine, that is an excellent money maker, assuming it isn't tapped out. As guilds exist by and under the authority of a royal charter, the ruler has the ability to make a demand for X number of goods they make, by a certain date, and at the market price, and may then dispose of those goods as they see fit provided they don't abuse the terms of the guild charter. As all authority for the minting of coins is ultimately sovereign authority, a ruler has the right to own, build, and expand their own mint. There are lots of other examples.

1. If a feast is thrown, people are supposed to make a show of themselves. You should wear your best clothes and bring your prettiest weapon. Humakti will have their "money sword" for such occasions. 2. The feast will likely have guards present who are supposed to keep the peace. They will have arms and armor on, but will mainly protect the doors and the person throwing the feast. Everyone is honor-bound to behave civilly by the rules of hospitality. 3. Guests are also expected to dress well and wear their prettiest weapon. If you front up in stinky hunting skins and carrying a spear, you will likely not gain admittance until you change into something more befitting, unless you have an important message for the Chief or something. 4. Yes, but a chief can command more security. 5. Likely to have less security.

I am of the opinion that a hide of land can potentially produce far in excess of the 80L mentioned if a herd of horses is what is managed there. A herd of only 50 horses will produce 10 animals of "meat" standard every 2 years which can sell for 40L, so after the first year's investment that is a bare minimum of 400L which is in keeping with the figures for a hide in RQG p405. If however you are training Darons to cavalry standard over the course of the year 1-2, then those 10 animals (150L each) are worth 1500L at market, less 200L for maintaining the hide and its services.

Yes there are tricksters who fall into this "other" category imo. Orlanthi society has groups of people who live on the fringes of normal life. Uroxi roam the land looking for chaos, often putting aside clan and tribal loyalty in order to kill chaos. Shamans live away from the rest of Orlanthi society because they (a) spend a lot of time in the company of spirits and (b) the concentration of spirits in their vicinity makes casual contact potentially dangerous for those around them. Humakti and Yemlalios mercenaries will sell their services to clans and tribes, and spend plenty of time on the road between jobs and settlements. Orlanthi rebels are often hiding out in the woods. Issaries merchants may be 'of the travelling kind', rather than shopkeepers. There are plenty of fringe dwellers, and many tricksters are able to slot themselves into such transient societies for a short while at least. Arguably the Puppeteer troupes have lots of tricksters in them to provide illusions, as well as Donandar initiates. There are references to Trickster Bands, such as the one that Oddi the Keen hangs out with riddling long into the night who illuminate him (Cults of Chaos p53 & 87). This suggests that in Dorastor at least, there are groups of tricksters who move about together (what a nightmare!). Who would seriously want to mess with a band of tricksters? Left to their own devices they will endlessly torment each other, but may unite against a common threat. It may be that some tribes who understand the benefits of having a trickster around to augment their hero quests may also keep a spare trickster or two in the clan line-up in case the chief's bonded trickster dies. Now, being a bonded trickster is potentially a pretty cushy gig, but even at 1 bonded trickster per clan there aren't enough of those jobs to go around. Most tricksters in Sartar will be unbonded; perhaps as many as 90% imo, but their lives will be like trollkin; brutish, nasty, hungry and short.

According to RQG page 404 a Hide of land is between 80 and 120 acres of land. While you can keep a horse alive for a year on a single acre of land, realistically you would do far better and require a lot less maintenance and extra feed with 2 acres, with 1.5 acres being able to produce about enough grass for a horse to survive comfortably enough but not optimal. Note that horse pasture is only producing grass and need not be the most fertile land, but a years worth of horse droppings will go a long way towards fertilizing the field. That means that a hide of land devoted to nothing other than raising horses can feed between 53 and 80 horses. Female horses can be bred from age 2, but it is safer from age 4 onwards and they can generally foal about 16 times. Wild Horses can double their herd size in 4-5 years, indicating a fertility rate of 20-25% in the wild. That means that a herd of 53 horses will produce about 10-11 foals per year (on average), while a herd of 80 will produce 16 foals without humans managing their fertility. You can also add a lot of value to horses by training them according to the price guidelines on RQG p410. Historically, raising horses has been an immensely profitable line of pastoralism to get into, but the capital outlay to buy up a breeding herd of good stock was prohibitive. Remember that not every horse has the stats to be worth training as a warhorse however.

I hope this renewed interest indicates that the Prince of Sartar webcomic will continue.

In the specific case of an Orlanthi being adopted by Praxians, there has been constant contact between these cultures albeit not always friendly. Cult tolerances are important here too. Waha and Orlanth are friendly to each other, and that matters. Waha is the child of Stormbull and Eiritha, and as Stormbull is Orlanth's older brother, that makes Orlanth Waha's uncle by human standards. Relations are sufficiently good that the Pol Joni tribe is allowed to exist as a half-Praxian half-Orlanthi community on the border between the two societies. While the Pol-Joni exist, and Sartarites settled New Pavis, and Praxians do raid into Sartar now and again, there are relatively few areas of territorial dispute between the communities. Sartar doesn't want to rule Prax, and Praxians may raid Dragon pass, but they don't want to occupy it. Relations further improve with the rise of Argrath Whitebull, as he is able to weld the Praxians into a confederation against the Lunars, and then he comes to power in Sartar (and eventually far beyond that). Now, an Orlanthi probably can't initiate into Waha, as acceptance is largely dependent on being born into Praxian tribe and being male. The normal path for an outsider in Praxian society therefore is through the cult of Stormbull. Conversely, Orlanth is more tolerant and will accept any air-breathers. The state of being between these two cultures is already relatively un-exceptional prior to the period post 1602 when Sartarite refugees move into Prax, seeking a life away from the Lunars in New Pavis. After Argrath becomes king in Sartar, with the Praxian White Bulls as a cavalry mainstay of his armed forces, it only becomes increasingly normal. While both Praxians and Sartarites are pastoralists (they herd), the Praxian nomadic way of life is very different to that of the Orlanthi. Orlanthi are technologically superior to the Praxians, having access to a wider array of tools, materials, gods and lifestyles. On the other hand, Praxians are extremely difficult to conquer, as they are able to survive in the Wastes, and pursuing armies (unless Pentan), cannot. Outsiders will be struck by how the Praxians use leather, sinew, stone, and bone to solve the technical problems of their survival. An interesting development in the RQG rules is that the house campaign pre-generated characters Vasana and Harmast both ride Prax beasts due to their time with the White Bulls. This may indicate a trend in Sartarite cavalry in the future. Perhaps we will see a wider Praxification and a de-horsing of Sartar's forces in the future?

Remember too, that excess wealth the Prince possesses will be invested into lands and businesses where possible. As the yearly wealth production of the Prince's investments begins to grow, the burden of taxation can be reduced on the economy, leading to a more popular rule.

As you say, she farmed out the heavy lifting to the earth rune girls and kept all the fun bits for herself. I'm sure the later generations of deities were constantly rolling their eyes at the original rune holders and how damn irresponsible they were.😁 Agreed. Today we know that various species of sylphium work as both. They likely knew by trial and error back in the day, and would have credited a deity no doubt, as you suggest. Yes, I freely admit that your interpretation is perfectly reasonable Alex. The reason why I think that contraception would be a substantial factor is that prostitutes were pioneers in birth control, historically speaking, and with excellent economic motivation. Uleria is a party girl imo, and I'm sure that she wouldn't mind if girls wanting to have fun didn't have it ruined by a perpetual litter of kids. No doubt the more fanatical Ulerians wouldn't see it that way. Anyhow, what's she gonna do about it? Curse you with infertility? Well idk the details of what our bad boy stormbull did exactly, but Stormbull has a disorder rune, not a chaos rune, and sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between the two. As to UK law, I hope the matter of proving intent is central to the crime, as our Stormbull is definitely guilty if that is the case. There is actually such a myth written up in Book of Drastic Revelations, and it names Stormbull, but it could feasibly also be Ragnaglar given his failed initiation in the Sex Pit that drove him mad. I suspect that the real answer depends upon who is hero questing at the time. Agreed. I think Stormbull has a bonus with regards to animal rune goddessses, but others are a lot less interested in his form of 'seduction'. As for getting Uleria's consent, seriously? When doesn't she?

Yes, Broos are 'people', but they are disgustingly evil 'people'. Broos are outside the natural cycles of Glorantha. They are in the world, but not of it, in the worst possible way. They are an introduced species that is actively despoiling everything. Broos procreate through violent rape and bestiality that ends in the death of their victim when they give birth. They think that atrocity and war crimes are laudable and entertaining acts that bring the end of the world closer. Is it okay to perform genocide on a genocidal enemy? That is just tit-for-tat, really , isn't it? If your god demands honorable behavior then you owe broos nothing more than a quick death. Of course Lunars don't see it this way... Queue advertisment: Lunar priestess approaches the screen holding the hands of a 3 and a half foot tall ram-horned penis with eyes, bouncing on its testes. She intones: "This is little Thrudmuck. He is just one of the thousands of orphaned baby broos destined for a terrible life of violence, ignorance, starvation, and death through no crime of his own. But for only 1 clack per week on top of your weekly donation to the Seven Mothers, you can make a difference. Your donation will help little broos like Thrudmuck get regular meals, an education, a safe place to sleep, and become valuable members of Lunar society. Won't you make a difference in Thrudmuck's life today?" The priestess then lovingly kisses the little chaos monster on the head. They smile and wave. Fade to next advertisement.

Yes, I can't really accept that the Goddess of Love and bearer of the Life rune would be okay with abortion, as it sort of runs counter to her gifts. Prevention is another matter entirely, and I'm sure that she's fine with giving her worshippers some power over when they conceive and with whom. The idea being that sylphium is not just an abortifacient but an actual contraceptive if taken prior according to some of what I have read. Stormbull initiates aren't under any restrictions as to their relationships. Ulerians certainly aren't. As to the whole "made her pregnant without her consent" bit, well, that is generally called an accidental pregnancy and isn't considered rape. As to Stormbull, remember that he raped Thed while pretending to be Orlanth, and Ragnaglar was their brother who went to the "Sex pit" during their initiations. Retcon as we may, it is all in the literature.

That entirely depends on who you read, but you are not wrong.