Leingod

But there are always going to be some who want to be egregiously awful about it.

IIRC the logic isn't "only Bronze Age terms will do" but rather "we don't want people - especially new players - to think the Orlanthi are just Norsemen/Saxons." A lot of decisions in recent portrayals of the Orlanthi have apparently been conscious efforts to divorce them from how they were previously often portrayed in art as almost 1:1 with Norsemen, Saxons, and/or Iron Age Celts. The idea is to get across that the Orlanthi are their own thing, which is also why Mycenaean terms haven't been used to replace them. Personally, though, I'm fine with keeping the old terms. I do think the replacements we have now sound kind of drab and not the kind of terms the people in-universe would be likely to use in their everyday language. I can't really picture someone introducing himself proudly as a "semi-free tenant" of the Ernaldori clan. I don't feel strongly against the decision, though. I get why it was done and I don't actually disagree with it from the standpoint of not wanting new players to get the wrong idea about how to portray the Orlanthi in new books. But in play I'm almost certainly going to default to using "cottar" rather than "semi-free tenant." YGWV and all. Really, it's not much different from how pre-imperial titles of Chinese nobility are typically translated using European equivalents, so that you have historical figures from that period being referred to as the "Marquis of Jiu" or "Duke of Zhou" and such. This obviously has the problem that Bronze Age Chinese feudalism was necessarily very different from Medieval European feudalism, just as the social structure and culture of the Orlanthi is obviously very different from any of the many Earthly inspirations they draw from, and that it might cause people to mistakenly assume the two are more similar than they really were. But much as with the case of pre-imperial China, I don't think the alternatives (using a different language's terms, or using the indigenous terms as-is - which in this case would require constructing at least part of a proper Theyalan language group - or going for more literal translations, which is what Chaosium has chosen) are necessarily better for adequately describing things, and IMO they're less fun to say.

How so?

Lukarius did destroy the city, but he was also the one who initially formally recognized the Septopoli to which the "Seven Servants" are apparently meant to symbolize. As this was done upon his enthronement, Mernita hadn't yet rebelled. Khordavu was the one who rediscovered the feathered Cap/Crown of Mernita, which had been lost since the reign of Urvairinus. So there's that, I guess.

In the normal Gloranthan canon that's true, but in the context of this game specifically Reladivus is actually the son of Elmal and served as the city god of Nivorah (basically, Elmal and Reladivus were to Nivorah as Shargash and Alkor are to Alkoth). His promotion to full-fledged Son of Yelm and face of the Lightfore deity in Peloria almost certainly comes later as a result of the curse Manarlavus laid upon the Nivorans when they refused his idea of hiding beneath a dome (though on the other hand the Samnali/Wheels still worship Reladivus in some form even after leaving Nivorah, so maybe that also plays a part of it). Come to think of it, if we accept the above, and also that Elmal and Kargzant are indeed merely different masks of the Lightfore deity, then it means Manarlavus's curse on the Nivorans that they would forget their god's name was a great deal less successful than Plentonius claims it is (though what else is new when it comes to Plentonius and claims of an emperor's efficacy?), since it means they literally just slapped a new name and some new traits (suitable for their new lifestyle) on their god and went on with their business. A relationship to Redalda is unlikely, since she's actually born within the timeline of the game and plays a major role in its ending, though not in a way that establishes a preexisting connection to Relandar or other Nivoran deities. It actually might be both, now that I think of it, because Relandar is worshiped by both of the major groups of the Nivoran diaspora. These being the Hyalorings/Riders and the Samnali/Wheels (who are probably ancestral to all the chariot-riding Horse People at the Dawn). I hadn't caught the use of the symbol by the Golden Men, that is odd. Though this is all kind of made weirder by the fact that the Golden Men seem to be "solar fragments" of some sort, little pieces of the dead and shattered Sun, at least some of whom are apparently mortal. Which I guess fits with them being Golden Men, who can use the bones of dead Fire gods to make more of themselves.

Now for another question I'd like to pose for those more well-versed in Pelorian history than I am (not a difficult feat, admittedly): Does anyone recognize this symbol on Relandar's (at right) chest? That might shed some light on who exactly Relandar is, from a Pelorian/Dara Happan perspective, because when I think about it he's pretty odd. Obviously he's essentially Lhankor Mhy... but he's not Buserian, who has also been equated with LM before. Your clan can worship Buseryan as a separate god who provides different magic (namely that of literacy and record-keeping), whereas Relandar is a god of lore, wisdom, and tradition. He's the "god of elders," basically. So I guess in that sense he and Buseryan are essentially Lhankor Mhy split into two aspects: The urban scribe and the rural wise man. The weird thing, though, is that he's consistently claimed to be Elmal's brother, which would make him a son of Yelm. So unless he really is "Nivoran Buserian" (which is weird since, again, your clan can choose Buseryan as one of the old gods of Nivorah you kept that others lost) he doesn't seem to fit that schema of Yelm's known sons, since he doesn't have his own city to rule or have a name that resembles any of them. Actually, the closest name to his own seems to be that of Reladivus. He might be some Nivorah-specific god unacknowledged by the rest of the empire, perhaps? It just seems weird to me that he's specifically Elmal's brother. That just seems like it would have certain connotations. And he doesn't seem to be a recent thing, either; the Wheels strive to innovate as little as possible and seem to only grudgingly accept new gods like Dostal and Inilla out of sheer necessity, but they like Relandar so much that your odds of getting them to show up for your rituals goes up if one of his worshipers is sitting on your Clan Circle.

The Ergeshites explain when asked that they worship Father Goat (a.k.a. Sidar Goatfather) and Mother Goat (who they don't explicitly call Uryarda, it's your own clan who makes that connection, though they also don't dispute it at all), so that checks out. Interestingly, @Sheliak noticed in the debug files that the Northern Wheel kingdom of Naztalvan is identified as Garsting, and that the clan you can make friends with there is the Gar-Astin, whose chieftain Varairunas embarks on a ritual that brings him to the Sky World, from which he returns glowing like the sun and living as an ascetic in a "specially constructed solar dome."

So, in the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm there's a brief mention of "Seven Servants" who attended Emperor Khordavu in his enthronement; the only two mentioned are "Alkothi soldiers" and "Yuthuppan priests." The wiki says these are a class of officials who represent the Septopoli of Anaxial and Lukarius, and adds the Imperial Falconer and Imperial Bowman to the list. Indeed, these can be found (though not explicitly named as part of the Seven Servants, as far as I can tell) in the GRoY. The falconer would thus represent Verapur and the bowman Elempur. So that leaves three cities unspoken for: Raibanth, Nivorah, and Mernita. I suspect the Servant representing Nivorah would have something to do with horses, but that's all I've got. Does anyone know (or is willing to hazard a guess) what those three might be? Also, are the Seven Servants still an extant official position maintained in the Third Age, or is that an archaic thing that isn't terribly relevant anymore except that it might be handed out as a sinecure or something?

Also hey, look at what I literally just realized was right there in the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm the whole time (pg. 27):

Recently started playing the game again, so I decided to also resurrect this thread again to talk about yet more stuff I've noticed in terms of lore. For now I'll be talking about the names (or potential names) of the local clans. First, the Riders: Your own clan also has its own pool of default names. The ones I can recall right now are: Blue Arrow, Burning Axe, Golden Hand, Night Shield, Star Dancer. There's at least a few more I'm forgetting. I've only split my clan once, but it seems there's a separate pool of names for that, as the name they chose for themselves that time was "Sunflower." (Incidentally, the name I give my clan pretty much every playthrough is "Golden Axe." 😉) Anyway, other than the obvious reference in that list ("Blackspear" clan, huh?), there's not much to talk about there except for the name Zar Hawk, which I've already done. Though on that note, I will point out that "Zarkos" is actually one of the potential names for an Ergeshite lion-warrior who comes to duel one of your clansmen in an event, so that's interesting given what @jajagappa had to say about it the last time I brought it up (though it seems the Ergeshites either are, or are predecessors of, the goat-herders known as the Sidarsi at the time of the Dawn). Actually, one question: Does anyone know of an important Gloranthan constellation with seven stars in it? Next, the Wheels: This all means nothing to me (though I do at least notice the "Yu-" prefix, which you also see in "Yu-Kargzant"), so I have even less to say here (I'm really only going to be talking about the Rams, honestly). I'm mostly just hoping someone more familiar with stuff like the GRoY might notice something meaningful in this. All I can really conclude is that this naming scheme is probably just another indication of how stuck in their ways the Wheels are; it's been several generations since the exodus from Nivorah and the language of the Riders and Wheels has changed (when you meet Imperial refugees from Orlentos, the event says they speak an "archaic version" of your own language). Most likely, the Wheels are still using the archaic form for things like the names of their clans and other uses, even though in everyday use they seem to speak the same version that the Riders do. As an aside, though, I love how many different peoples you can integrate into your own clan well before the marriage of Beren and Redalda that will give rise to the Berenethtelli. You can adopt Yeleni hunter-gatherers, Ergeshite goat-herders, and Orlentosite refugees, each of whom has something useful to teach you. Anyway, the Rams: One notable feature is the use of a few names that will recur later, most notably "Orlmarth." Another is that all of these are derived from personal names (presumably of ancestors), and that this seems to hold true of all the Rams you can encounter in the game; all of them lack "descriptive" names entirely, much as the Rider clans have no clan names derived from personal names. More importantly, though, two of these names are particular familiar and interesting. "Kastwalting" seems to be derived from Kastwall Five, husband of Penene Winter and co-founder of the Penentelli with her. However, interactions and events seem to indicate that at least most of the local Ram clans broke off from the Infithtelli. Perhaps those only make up the bulk of them, and the Rams who've settled around the Black Eel river valley have diverse origins? That might be part of why they haven't formed their own tribe. Just as interesting is the name "Lastraling," which seems to be derived from Lastralgor, founder of the Lastralgortelli. That tribe has already disintegrated by the time the game starts, as the Forosilvuli are in this game and that was one of the two tribes formed from the Lastralgortelli remnants. Perhaps even more evidence that the "Kestaytelli," as the Infithtelli call the hated Rams of your home valley, have more diverse origins than I'd previously assumed. There are other names that seem derived from names that appear in the Book of Heortling Mythology, but almost certainly aren't in-universe references to those exact personages, due to the timeframe involved: "Kestangi" seems to derive from an Uz-fighting hero of the Vulture Camp in the Greater Darkness, for example, which hasn't happened yet (though maybe he was around long before the Vulture Camp?). Ornolsting" seems to come from Ornolsta, a beautiful queen of the Koroltes who was defended by Deskedov the Punisher, one of Heort's ancestors. "Orvisi" likely comes from Orvis, a king of the Garanvuli. "Soranding" might be from Sorandessa, a heroine of the Human Resettlement, which happens all the way in the Third Age(!).

There is that, but as (Tar)Heler(a) proves, gender tends to be a fluid concept when dealing with the powers of Water.

A Free Sartar ripe to be turned into the foundation of Argrath's empire, presumably just yet another conquering boot trodding everything underfoot and calling its naked imperialism glorious and just. I'd like to think the irony wouldn't be lost on her.

It seems like you could milk some kind of cruel irony out of this: Part of the reason for the rise of the Yelmalio cult in Sartar was the tribal Elmali feeling sick of being treated like sidekicks and playing second fiddle to Orlanth, so they revolted, had this big revelation about an independent Cold Sun, left behind their old clans and tribes and way of life and moved to the Sun Dome. Where you can't actually live with your wife and kids and have to follow a bunch of stifling taboos, but you're in charge! You're the bigshot now, lording it over your Ergeshi helot caste! ... And then some Yelmites blow in and get to treat you like underlings, and you just kind of have to take it because you're a "loyal son." The more things change, huh?

Well, obviously pro-Lunar Sartarites aren't going to be fans of Kallyr. Those who are more on the fence about it might resent her because they felt like things got worse in Sartar as a result of her rebellion, or because they lost family or friends as a result of it. Even of those who hate the Lunars, some don't like Kallyr because, well, she lost. She talked big, made a lot of grand promises, and then got a bunch of people killed and fully intends to do it all over again. It's easy to guess why some might not appreciate that, even if they also want a free Sartar. Some of them might not necessarily dislike her, but just question her ability to actually deliver on her promises. She's failed already, after all. And of course at least some of them (*cough* Leika) don't much like Kallyr because they want to be the figure everyone gathers around looking to become Prince of Sartar and don't appreciate her hogging the spotlight.

To start with, someone outlawed for a religious transgression might not really have the option to keep up his normal worship, if his god took offense to whatever he did. Or they might be bitter enough about their outlawing to cast aside the faith of Orlanth and embrace Gagarth to take it out on everyone else, former kin included. Alternatively, if you fall in with some Gagarthi for survival's sake, then your decision is kind of out of your hands. Justifying it from a "what magic does this get me?" standpoint for someone whose occupation is Bandit would probably be akin to that of a Warrior. Orlanth is a good choice for that, but there are more specialized deities for it, like Humakt. In the same way, Orlanth works fine for a bandit, but we might guess that Gagarth is more specialized for it. You could give Gagarth any kind of magic that would make sense for a god of outlaws and bandits: Maybe he can help you sneak around or set an ambush, or he has magic to intimidate your victims so they're too scared to put up a fight. He might also have magic for getting food out in the wilderness, since even the best bandit can't probably get enoughfood just from the people he robs. And since he's the master of the Wild Hunt, maybe a powerful Rune Lord of Gagarth could make his own Wild Hunt out of those he slays.

IRL? The males are sterile and most females are almost totally infertile.

Or very wittingly, if he grew up among the Orlanthi or at least knows the stories from his mother. Though acting like Orlanth to prove your Yelmic-ness seems like the kind of shenanigans that nets you some points for your next Illumination check.

I'm pretty sure a group of clans like that would just split off and make their own tribe.

My own preferred portrayal of Merlin is sort of a mix of the prophetic tradition Merlin and the T.H. White Merlin, with a bunch of meta nonsense thrown in; it's background info the players would likely never need to become privy to, but essentially my thoughts are that the Enchantment of Britain was actually inevitable, and that influencing the snapshot of Britain that it took back into the enduring mythic landscape of the Other Side with it when it ended was Merlin's ultimate goal. I tend to prefer Merlin's father being fae rather than demonic, and while incomprehensible to the humans around him, that goal is probably actually perfectly understandable to the likes of King Today. Perhaps the Ladies of the Lake (some of them, anyway) are directly working with him towards this end. So, his goal is ultimately altruistic in its motivation - he wants the snapshot of Britain that becomes the myth carried into the Other Side and forward into the future to be that of the Good King reigning over a virtuous Age of Chivalry over whatever alternatives might have been on the table - but still weird and unearthly and a lot of people would probably debate whether it's actually worth a lot of the things he did or enabled to bring it about. He does dubious stuff like helping Uther commit rape by deceit, and I'd even go with the idea that he was responsible for the Infamous Feast, either personally or by enabling someone else (such as, say, a vengeful young Morgan?), because Uther's misrule would jeopardize the plan if he doesn't "go out on top," so to speak. I'd probably want to add a few touches of humanizing elements, though. Like, in the GPC Merlin argues against Arthur marrying Guenevere behind the scenes, almost certainly because he knows how it's going to end. I'd keep that, but add that Merlin initially wanted that marriage to happen, maybe even took steps to ensure it, but once it was happening he got cold feet, because maybe without even realizing it he'd gotten attached to Arthur as an actual person, rather than just a character in the story Merlin was putting together. In the end, Merlin's disappearance is for several reasons: The stage is set and there's nothing left for him to do, it's time for him to bow out of the story as a "character" anyway since it harms the narrative if Arthur always has him around to wave his hands and magic up solutions... and also because he can't really bear to witness the ending he's planned out so long in advance anymore. Or maybe he even gets taken out of the picture by his erstwhile accomplices so he doesn't get cold feet and try to change things out of sentiment.

It's a little weird to me (and probably only me) to see it referred to as a "forgotten" classic, given that I've read a lot of (translated) classic Chinese history texts and other classics and classic literature, all of which often reference the myths of the fall of Shang that were eventually collected into a single coherent and developed narrative (after many centuries of elaboration and additions) in the Ming Dynasty as Investiture of the Gods. But that's just me. Anyway, also very recent (released in 2020) is the Chinese animated film Jiang Ziya, released in English as Legend of Deification. It serves as a (very, very) loose adaptation of some specific parts of Investiture of the Gods featuring Jiang Ziya (who you'll also commonly find referred to as Lü Shang or Taigong Wang, BTW) as the main character. You might be thinking of this: https://journeytothewestresearch.com/2020/05/05/archive-16-creation-of-the-gods-library-of-chinese-classics-chinese-english-bilingual-edition-vol-1-4/

I seem to recall reading that Issaries is at least sometimes stated to be the child of Larnste and Harana Ilor, but I think that's likely a God-Learnerism to refer to the fact that his Runes are Change and Harmony, since if Issaries was traditionally considered Orlanth's maternal uncle (as he would be if he was Larnste's son) you'd expect it to be mentioned in the old myths. Which, as far as I know, isn't the case. Though of course, now that it is apparently considered true, you could probably make something interesting out of that.

There's a list of Grazer gods on pg. 90-91 of King of Sartar. The four sons of Yu-Kargzant are likely just used as the local names/forms of the Imperial Sun's sub-cults (Dastal for Yelm the Youth, etc.). La-ungariant is essentially Dendara, Orest is essentially Ernalda.

Plus the vendref themselves are militarily dependent on the Grazers for protection. Outside the elite Humakti bodyguards that serve the Feathered Horse Queen they're banned from worshiping warlike gods, and it's been noted in text that the major difference between vendref and Sartarite villages is that the former are completely unfortified. Without the Grazers, the vendref would be vulnerable to attack from pretty much all of their neighbors, many of whom would no doubt enslave them or sell them as slaves.

From what I've read, I've gotten the impression that the Grazers rule with a fairly light hand these days; so long as proper tribute is paid, the vendref are left alone to do their work. The Grazers themselves likely credit this solely to the Feathered Horse Queen's influence, as a way to avoid acknowledging the fact that the vendref have used every means at their disposal to ensure better treatment over the years. King of Sartar mentions the vendref have historically resisted in ways both violent (assisting foreign invaders, or even inviting their Orlanthi cousins in to invade) and non-violent (packing up and moving somewhere else en masse) when the Grazers went too far. Add to that, the vendref have made themselves vital to contemporary Grazelands society and enriched themselves in the process by doing work (namely farming and trade) the Grazers think themselves too good for but are now too appreciative of the fruits of to want to go without. Essentially, the Grazers continue to claim the vendref as slaves, and the vendref don't dispute that, but they're more like a separate caste than anything these days, with their own rights and restrictions and with a certain amount of potential for upward mobility. And like most caste systems, however unfairly the hierarchy might be arranged, at the end of the day they're mutually dependent on each other for the functioning of their society. The vendref have even managed to work at least one of their gods directly into the Grazer pantheon: Kanestal One-Hand, the vendref Issaries, is named as the slave treasurer of Yu-Kargzant in King of Sartar.

Something else to kind in mind with regards to Orlanthi slavery is that we know of a myth wherein Orlanth himself is enslaved and only manages to fight his way to freedom thanks to the love of the slave-driver's daughter ("When Orlanth Was Prisoner," pg. 52-53 of The Book of Heortling Mythology). Officially, slaves can't worship Orlanth because they have lost their "breath" (i.e. freedom), but I'd be willing to bet that a secret cult of "Orlanth Enslaved" can be found among those who refuse to let another man decide his worth and will fight, overtly or covertly, to be able to breathe again.. And on the other hand, slaves can and do worship Ernalda, who herself is characterized as having been enslaved by the Evil Emperor in some stories and provides what succor and comfort she can to those in bondage.