Sir_Godspeed

A turning point for Rokarism itself could potentially be someone finally figuring out the spell that Theoblanc is using to kill dissident Zzaburi. Sounds like Hrestoli Man-of-All questing time to me! Stand before the Inquisition and rebuff their demons! Amaze the masses!

Minor apropos, I think we all know that those extended, sorcerous Farsee spells take the form of literal crystal balls, because how could they friggin' not?

I... never realized that.

Jon Pol Joni.

I am obviously way, way out of my depth here, but a few thoughts: - Given what we know of Malkionism in the current vision of Glorantha, it is largely a Zzaburi-affair, ie. more like schools of philosophy managed by professional philosophers and not mass-movements or denominations in the modern-day sense, with mass conversions and public liturgy and the like. I have some issues grokking this given the history of Malkionism in Glorantha, but I'm going to give it my best shot. - In this context, even if the Rokari declare Navigationalism a heresy, this practically means that they're mostly just out to kill or displace their rival Zzaburi. Obviously, this overlaps with the more overt power struggles of the states involved, as the Seshnelan realm is also using this to consolidate its power in the region and getting rid of rivals. So far, no issues. - However, this seems to imply that there is no real need or want to disrupt, for example, the Dronar populations. In the current vision of Malkionism in Glorantha, Dronars have effectively no input on the cult activity, and are therefore not *really* heretics? Basically, the basic assumption of heresy would perhaps work differently in Malkionism than, say Christianity or Islam. - Anyway, long preamble, but my end-point is basically this: would it not perhaps make sense for the exodus to largely by one of the elites (Talar, Zzaburi, Horali) and not really Dronars? This would push the expected number of exiles pretty far down, one would assume. - I realize that this might not be such a big issue, since agricultural serfs and manual laborers probably were never going to be able to get onboard a boat anyway (excepting house servants, perhaps). On the flipside, it does mean that prominent artisans who might conceivably have the resources to buy themselves passage away might simply sit tight and wait for the new governmental superstructure (Rokari Zzaburs and Seshnelan Talars) to roll in. Business as usual once the fires die down. And of course, on the flipside of the flipside, a lot of people might just want to get away regardless, simply due to the level of devastation that a brutal siege is going to cause. But here's the kicker: they might actually be just as likely to just travel up into Tanisor. Again, if we're assuming Dronars don't really engage in the whole sectarian nature of Malkionism, and if indeed one Zzaburi is as good as another to them. I honestly don't really know.

Simply put, the artist is busy with other Chaosium products, iirc.

Jesus, reading this PDF gave me some severe flashbacks to my national service days I had hoped were forgotten. It's eerie how spot-on everything was. I don't know if you're taking suggestions, but I have a couple that I think(?) might be near-universal: - Because troops always are tired, they will take any and all opportunities to sleep or nap. Opportunities to sleep include riding in a bumpy, uncomfortable vehicle, lying in a foxhole or trench (while being certain that someone else is keeping watch) or literally just standing or sitting somewhere when you're (rarely) not currently being expected to do anything. Doesn't matter if it's 5 or 20 minutes. You're probably not getting any later, so might try to catch some now. - In-group and out-group dynamics produce weird, inconsequential rivalries that do not actually mean anything, but are a distraction from misery, so why not. Are you an infantryman? Then you know that cavalry/recon are lazy, incompetent ninnies. Even more locally, your sister unit is obviously not as skilled as yours, and everyone in it is an idiot (except that one dude you know, he's all right). Or maybe they are better than yours, but only because they are the COs pets. Their particular set-up in gear is utterly alien and absurd. Yours is the right way to do things. Shit like that. - Gossip and drama are common topics of discussion, partly because troops are often drawn from highly different backgrounds, so have little in common besides their current predicament. During deployment, the ability to get info from the outside is also highly limited, further increasing the need to draw on very immediate topics of conversation. Additionally, troops are in a constant deficit of information (information trickles downwards, and only when necessary), which fuels the rumour mill. The ability to fact-check is minimal. ----------- I'm also pondering what an academic version of this would be like, for "civilians" without a background in higher education playing professors, doctors, etc.

Significantly more sporting than how the Castilians went about it in the New World.

Sounds like a great adventure hook for a Caladralander hero.

While parts of Prax(?) had giant redwoods, I'm not sure if the entirety of the Waste/Pent would be forest, I dunno. I'm still imagining expansive mixed grasslands easily traversed by relatively unbothered bands of hunter-gatherers and pastoralists. Maybe even family-bands of giants, or perhaps more accurately, restless bands of mirthful bachelor giants. Potentially bothersome, but not ill-willed. Presumably we would also have some massive rivers going through, the ones nowadays only seasonally active, dried up completely, or going underground. Gallery forests along there would make sense. Lush marshlands might also exist in places. I like that idea. Scary and potentially dangerous, but non-aggressive and really just uncaring more than anything. One of many reasons why settling big cities out on the plain or forests is ill-adviced. Stick to the foothills of the Rockwoods or Shan-Shan, or the few hills dotted around. Also, keep around one of Genert's Giants. They know how to scare the worms away with some well-timed jump-stomping. Vibrations and all. Then remember to give thanks to your local giants with music and dances or whatever. One thing I've been thinking about is the form male Earth Sovereignty would take. You'd think a surviving Genert, or Tada, would take wives from other gods, or even mortal heroines, but iirc, Tada married his daughters to Vingkot, and I wonder if that might be their default approach to alliance building. Potential outcome: Genert effectively becomes the Father-in-law of Orlanth and Yelm in this alternate mythic reality. Through this bond, he can assert familial pressure to lessen Central Genertelan hostilities. Plausible? Who knows, Sun and Storm still fought when he was alive, so maybe not. But one can dream. If Genert took a wife, perhaps it would be a female Sun, or a female Air? Or a large river going through his lands that does not exist in the Original Timeline. Or even something more "universal", like Uleria? Or perhaps he simply dallies around, or retreats and act as a largely benevolent, if tired, Elder. No idea what his relationship with dragons would be. I suspect not much would change for the 'newts. Interesting pondering what Kralorela would be like with a much more friendly climate and (potentially) cultures to their west though. Perhaps draconism never quite took off as much as in the OT? Fever Trees might've been a fully fledged Aldryami forest, as might the Redwood Forest. Teshnos might have traded more easily with the west, although, on the other hand, with all those forests and rivers and potentially fewer horses and riding animals, perhaps they would have been EVEN MORE isolated? Weird thought, but who knows. Rivers might've made north-south trade easier though, but not sure who would be interested in it. Oh, and megafauna. I just like megafauna. So I decide there would be more megafauna. Besides the worms, of course.

The parallel between Zzabur and Malkion vis a vis Acos and Larnste is genius, well spotted. Really gets the noggin going.

I believe "Ezel" just means "Her Place" or something like that, iirc. ("Her" being Ernalda, or the Earth in general), However, it's also known as "Asrelia's Hut", which reflects on the myth that this is where the young Ernalda grew up as a girl. There's more to it, and importantly, myths frequently disagree with each other (as they do, of course). Going off memory, Ezel is this giant cleft or depression in the landscape, where everything inside the cleft is part of a massive temple complex, and there being some residential servant quarters outside. There are eleven main temples inside, that are basically carved caves, dedicated to different goddesses or aspects of the Earth. These main eleven are known as the "Eleven Wombs", but there are also lots and lots of smaller temples and shrines and niches, to the point where it's almost impossible to catalogue them all.

Esrolians regard Ezel as, essentially, the original cave/womb of the Earth Goddess (Variously Asrelia and Ernalda, afaik). It was present already in the Green Age, and has been there ever since. It was also a survival site during the Greater Darkness.

Based on (my memory of) the God Learner maps in the Guide, I believe Genert's Garden was basically all of the Wastes (including Prax) as well as large parts of Pent. Presumably, the fertility in these areas would have been significantly greater, removing the necessity for Waha's Survival Pact that Praxians live by, and also, presumably, giving Tada's people (of which the Oasis People is the last remnant... I think?) would be a lot more widespread and presumably not pushed beneath the capricious nature of the Beast Nomads. I'm guessing Eirithia would still be alive, or in a different state than the current one? I believe there are some old ruins along the eastern Rockwoods that may have been once populated by subjects of Genert? There's also the question of Giants. Regardless what type they were, it seems Genert had a number of, well, gigantic followers, and they may or may not have turned inanimate during Time (presuming the God Time ended largely as it did during the Original Timeline) or may have preserved a society of sorts. There's tons more to go through, but this is a start from me, at least.

It's worth considering that the notion of Pamalt being the equivalent of Genert is, as far as I understand, probably a God Learner notion. They identified this big, powerful Earth god associated with leadership in the southern continent, and they made the connections, much as we do, to Genertelan myths about Genert. However, these aren't really native Doraddi concepts, from what I recall. That doesn't mean it's wrong, but it's worth considering. All that being said, I think the implications are that a surviving Genert probably would have produced a more... harmonic and pleasant Genertela, perhaps. But who knows.

I could imagine this pushing certain noblemen to making generous donations to the temples of Dendara, to prostrate themselves before her various images and in general desperately paying their respect. Useful tool, in the absence of overt political power.

My understanding is basically that Nysalorean Illumination was kind of an attempt to mass-produce Illumination, or to almost mechanically reliably cause it, hence the riddles and all that, and hence why it has caught on with mass-movements for centuries afterwards. This seems to have the negative outcome that it doesn't quite have the same "quality control" that Eastern (and other) mystic traditions have, where they (mostly) prevent people who have the potential to go absolute crazypants from going through the steps. It's not really that either kind of Illumination is (inherently) Chaotic, it's more about what kind of experiences it primes the mystic with, afaik.

Well, he did switch cults without apparent consequence.

Even stupider theory: Giant-Mountains effectively act like barnacles, sending out reproductive material to mate with another, however it needs to be done. For whatever reason, this process has been messed up, and so the reproductive material is never properly fertilized, so the Giant Mountains are essentially just budding unfertilized, neotenous forms. The neotenous, immature form is simply more disorderly (moving around is a symptom of that) than the adult forms. This might explain(?) why we don't see "giantesses" or mother giants around. It's not that all giants are male or anything, it's just that none of them are really sexually mature, and are incapable of reproducing on their own. They're like big toddlers roaming about.

Stupid Theory Time: The "Disorder" giants are neotenous forms of "True" Giants. For some reason or another, they are left forever stunted and immature, unable, largely, to grow up and become the (mostly) sessile adult forms.

I don't think the etymology quite works out (Estoro from GanEstoro versus Turos,) but as you said, this is more of a neat idea than anything else.

Another question is: why didn't the God Learners do it? Was it too controversial? No available paths? Or did they actually do it? I wonder how it would be to Heroquest back and speak with Zzabur. Would he know exactly what you were up to, essentially having awareness of the future and the past because it's all interlinked? Or is he bound to act according to the Compromise as the theist deities are?

Simply put, yes. The Guide, writing with focus on the Third Age and the influence of the Lunar Empire, points out that fashions and artstyles for the Orlanthi take a lot from lowland Peloria (including Dara Happa). A high-ranking Orlanthi chief and a Solar noble might not look all that different.

Contrary to what we often think, there are quite a lot of Orlanthi living north of the Rockwood Mountains, in Peloria. There's obviously the Talastari, Aggari and the Brolians along the western periphery, but regions like Vanch, Holay and Sylila are also, in principle at least, Orlanthi lands. Or syncretic in nature. Imther's religions is also Storm-based, I believe, or a mixture of Storm and Sun. This brings the Orlanthi (or local equivalents) right up to the doorstep of Alkoth, basically.

Then there's all these related terms/bynames for Malkion. Kiona. Ferbrith. In the scheme, they are different subgradients of Malkion, but could they have had different origins prior to a hypothetical synthesis?