Sir_Godspeed

My impression is basically that "exceptionally powerful, driven and ambitious people find a way". What that way is exactly seems to vary and to be somewhat obscure (intentionally).

The original was already great, but it's still quite an improvement! And he's wearing trousers! I love it.

I assume you don't just mean Frozen? EDIT: I'm not sure what the esteemed gentlemen think - but The Wizard of Oz strike me as very, very Heroquest-y.

Gotcha! No worries.

From what I understand, the common reaction to an Orlanthi clan becoming too big (above 1500 or so, if I recall correctly, but I might be off) is for a portion of it to organize into a new splinter-clan and move off. Now, granted, for all I know it's probably equally possible for individual households to simply move off an join a nearby, less crowded clan (possibly as half-free cottars) which sounds a lot less dramatic and thus would probably get a lot less press in a cool storyline about wandering into new lands and doing heroic deeds and all that. My question is mostly this: if there is a new clan broken off from an old one, how do they choose a name, do they continue to remember/mark their origin from another clan, do they preserve the mythic traditions of their previous clan (I'd imagine yes, can't see why not, unless they make some new connections in their new area, like finding a nymph or something). Realistically, how many people, and how far can you imagine moving off? (this will be mostly women, children, elderly, farmers and livestock after all, not a band of dedicated warriors) Is this even a feasibly tactic in the more densely populated areas, such as in Heortland? Do you think it's common to send out an exploratory party first? Can one perhaps negotiate with a clan that has a claim to an area, but can't effectively populate it? (of course, this would call in question their claim to it, so the point might be moot).

Wouldn't there be literal (tens of?) thousands of individual steads?

When earlier we discussed the origins and nature of the horse in Glorantha, some posited that the Galanini pony emerged independently of the horses of the Pelorian basin - albeit through a similar mythical process. From your notes, however, it is *possible* that some enterprising Hyalorings or Gamatae travelled over the Rockwood Mountains, spreading the horse and their god. But which god? Kargzant or Yelm? What about native(?) Ehilm? And how early could they have come? Something to ponder.

Which was what I meant by "understanding the sentiment from a creative/design viewpoint". From a customer's viewpoint, however, it will of course more naturally be compared to other entertainment products (because that's what the customer is purchasing), so that was the comparison I argued was more apt when discussing Glorantha in the context of new players/readers.

I'm in no way a content designer - but it could a kind of overview of a hypothetical "typical" Heortling clan first and foremost - but then go into some specific example, choosing different sizes, different mythic past, different areas, and being involved in different events - and show how the basic structure could be varied and implemented in different campaigns. Is that feasible? I dunno. Would it be popular? I have no idea.

That's what makes him so dreamy, pubescent Mistress Race trolls say.

Virtually no premodern culture is going to adhere to any kind of "universal humanism", and so in their dealing with an out-group will emphasise their own group's interests in a very obviously biased - and to our modern eyes, deeply "hypocritical" manner, imho. "It's all right for us to steal cattle, but it's bad when others do it", is essentially a moral code to many groups worldwide, historically (and also presently, but that's another topic). I will agree that the Storm people are less squeamish about being open about this, and perhaps due to Umath setting the example of the action-oriented, heroic disturber of order, is more open for things to get shook up, but they also have traditions and laws (such as they are). Anyway, this is a bit of a pointless quibble - I think it fair to say that Orlanthi society is probably more used to low-intensity violence and endemic warfare than say, Dara Happa or Seshnela, but then so is probably Prax too. With no central authorities in place, and with a less heavily stratified society, people are more used to carry the threat of violence - retributional or preventational - with them in their daily lives. Whether this translates to whatever our individual understandings of the word "bully" means is... I mean, take a pick.

Bohemond's explanation is very succinct and useful, as it explains not just the how, but the why as well. Once you get the underlying logic, it's easier to implement it into a story, I'd imagine. EDIT: I don't know if Orlanthi use third-party witnesses/arbitrators in restitution negotiations, but in those RW cultures that do that, the third party might be entitled to some minor share of it (probably a fixed size, so as to not make them biased in making the restitution as large as possible). The conclusion of the negotiation might also be marked by a common meal - sharing a meal is almost universal cultural language for "no hard feelings" (even if it's only for pretend - optics matter).

Agreed.

I have looked into Tekumel, actually. It's quite the beast. Sadly the published material for it is somewhat lackluster, and ditto on online resources.

Comparing it to real history is a bit unfair (although I understand the sentiment from a creative/design viewpoint). It's an entertainment product, and if you compare it to a lot of other entertainment products, it is an extremely dense, at times vague and self-contradictory, self-aware and deliberately deconstructive setting. I'm not really talking about learning lists of cults and spells and character names and all that (sure, these can be dense, but it's a fairly straightforward kind of density, just data at the end of the day) - but it deals with themes, ideas and concepts that, well, require that the fan actively think about certain things, and it might not click immediately (ie. immersing yourself in Glorantha is less about data collecting, and more about actively analyzing the data you get). And isn't that part of why so many of us like it? I mean, I've delved into a lot of fantasy universes in my life, and for the most part, "mainstream" fantasy universes are fairly content to replicate some Tolkienesque tropes and use pseudo-medieval aesthetics, combat and an approximation of medieval politics - but also for simplicity's sake inject a hefty dose of modern/contemporary sensibilities to make it more approachable. And don't get me wrong - that is a perfectly valid creative direction and style (I enjoy doing it too), but let's be frank about them relying on commonly known and accepted formulas that players and readers mostly take for granted. Glorantha, on the other hand, seems to me to very deliberately try to make the player or reader rethink their assumptions about what fantasy, myth (and society) is. It throws a good deal of "discombobulations" at you, so that you are shaken off your footing. Then you can climb back up after a while once it makes sense a little after a little. I mean, Glorantha is pseudo-bronze/iron-age, not pseudo-medieval. It features characters from collective clan societies instead of insular, atomistic adventurers. It has five base elements instead of the classic four, and air is a separate element from sky (do you know how utterly WEIRD this was to me in the beginning? That's the power of shaking up internalized tropes.). Elves are trees. The mythical past is eternally reoccuring in a kind of parallel dimension where there is no linear time. There is no "canon" creation story that you can just open up to resolve debates. Rivers flow down because they are answering a call from the main sea god, not because of gravity. Horses are closer related to birds than to ungulates and explaining why is actually a compelling story. I could go on, but at the end of the day it seems almost like some of the veterans here might forget just how much Glorantha shakes stuff up to most newcomers. And it's not "oh there are so many named people in the dynasty of Sartar and how can we tell the exact Colymar tula borders" or whatever that's the issue. That's just a matter of memorizing names and events. It's rejigging your brain to shake off decades of built-up mainstream fantasy tropes that do not really fit Glorantha. You know what reading a lot of Gloranthan material reminds me of? Taking Anthropology 101 back in the day. It's not so much the specific ethnographic information - but rather the process of having to realize that your old perception of "how things just are" is just one very narrow understanding, and that there are entirely different ways of interpreting the same phenomena and processes out there. Five elements, and air is not sky, man. It frustrated me so much to begin with, but now it feels so incredibly natural - just like opening my text book in anthro101, and learning about how the patriarchal matrilineality of Melanesia, where boys inherit their uncle's property instead of their dad's, because they are more closely related to their mother's lineage, really confused me at first, but now seems just as rational as any other system of inheritance. And that is, after all, why I think Glorantha is pretty dang neat: it's about opening up your mind to different perspectives and self-reflecting over it. A bit more work, but very, very rewarding. It's a density of ideas rather than density of data that makes it challenging but fun, imho. (This is also why I've never really managed to get into most DnD lore I've seen out there. So much of it feels like reading index cards in some butterfly collection and memorizing stats rather than examining beliefs, hopes, dreams, fears, social fissures, etc. But that's a different matter.)

EDIT: I went a bit too long here, pardon the indulgence. In terms of literature on Amazonian animism, at least - the widespread fear of cannibalism is tied into this. If everything in nature is sapient and related, then everything you eat is essentially an act of cannibalism. This is why certain entities like Game/Animal Mothers are sacrificed to before or after hunts, or why the specific animal's spirit is appeased after it is killed (presumably an idea not entirely unlike the Peaceful Cut, albeit with the killing-appeasing switched around, as the Praxians are pastoralists rather than hunter-gatherers). The implication is that, yes, everything is intelligent - but it's not the same kind of intelligence. To parahprase a text: jaguars have villages, but their villages are invisible to human senses because human senses are not jaguar senses - and so forth. There is a rich tradition of Amazonian storytelling where people have to conduct seemingly bizarre and nonsensical actions in order to "realign" their senses with the realities of an otherworld. For example, a man who falls in love with a woman who belongs to the underwater people tells him that he must walk backwards on the path, and make the morning-call of a bird in the middle of the night in order to be able to breathe underwater so that he can visit her there. Amusement aside, the purpose of these stories is partially to show how different "person"-beings coexist without normally coming into contact as "inter-personal" relations, but as prey and hunter, or what have you. This also means, however, that animals, plants, spirits have their own version of shamans - who are able to change bodies and take on the sensory perspective of another lifeform, and engage in making deals with other beings. For a human, this can for example be to turn into a jaguar to parlay with the jaguars so that they won't attack the village, or steal prey, or it can be to enter the deer village to try and make a deal for a certain number of them to willingly give up their flesh, in return for propitiatory sacrifices. But a village may also have a scary story of a strange man arriving in a village, wearing strange spots on his skin, and eating only meat, while requesting that the tribe avoid a certain part of the woods. When he leaves, people see that he only left paw prints, not foot prints: so he was obviously the Jaguar's "shaman" (or a were-jaguar, although they may sometimes be considered the same thing, it varies hugely between groups). It sounds a bit bizarre, but those are the examples I've seen written about. Anyway, to cut a long story short - it is entirely possible that in the Praxian worldview, the animal members of the Covenant of Waha* are seen as naturally conducting a Peaceful Cut (or bite) when eating flesh. Moreover, this might be something your average Praxian takes for granted, or has never really thought about at all. Animals do what they do, and it doesn't really require lots of concern. You might get laughed at or given strange looks if you brought it up to them. A shaman would perhaps consider it more carefully, though, or even be surprised that you have insight into secret/privileged lore. It's like going up to a medieval Christian farmer and asking him what happens to an animal after death. Who cares, you know? Ask the priest - the farmer is busy. So you go asking the priest, and he gets upset because your question might be taken for implying heathenry or heresy, or he may explain to you how souls were doled out during the creation of the world, or whatever. (*It's my understanding that it is the membership in the Covenant that dictates whether someone is a relevant partner to the Peaceful Cut, whether as cutter or cut. If bugs aren't a part of the Covenant, a question over whether they need to the Peaceful Cut is rendered moot. I could be wrong, of course. It might apply to every living animal. Since Votanki also use it(?) it might be universal for the animist groups in Glorantha.)

It is, of course, also a deterrence. Realistically, I wouldn't be surprised to see significant deviations from the numbers we see in the texts. That's usually how things go IRL, especially when there's no central authority around. Granted, it can be a gamle. If a powerful clan uses its power to bully a weaker clan into not claiming full weregeld, other, neighboring clans might use this as an excuse to not honor their own weregeld obligations to the first mentioned clan. If the weaker clan can ally itself with another clan, it might even form the basis for a feud. There's a lot of room for scummy "politics" in here, and I fully expect any one clan to be full of stories about various cases where someone didn't do things right, and how it offends them. Like suburban families quarreling over who is not following the bylaws of the Houseowner's Association properly: mostly simmering under the surface, but possibly erupting should power balances shift, or particularly egregious cases come to light. Woops. Didn't mean to quote this section, but now I can't seem to remove it. But at any rate - this seems accurate.

The gods wall contains gods which at least by Plentonius in the First Age was believed to be representation of "Erlandus" and "Erlanda" - arguably Orlanth and Ernalda. If memory serves, their characteristics as described by Plentonius was more about their unbridled sexuality and promiscuity than anything else - setting them apart from civilized Dara Happan restraint, of course. We also have Orlanatus as an alternate title for Rebellus Terminus, but this again is probably a First Age construct. (And it is equated with Umathum, ie. Umath). Then we have the mention of "The Ram God" of the Ram people who invaded Peloria during the Storm Age. Of all the Storm deities, Orlanth is the one most commonly associated with the Ram (also via his son/younger form, Voriof). There are other Storm Hordes as well, but they're associated with different animal imagery. So, from what I can tell, it's a bit vague to what degree Orlanth as we know him today was known to the Dara Happans, or Pelorians at large in the God Time. Sometimes these name-similarities seem to be a product of the synthesis of the Second Council - other times it might go back to the God Time - I dunno.

The Prince of Sartar comic was my main introduction to the universe, it is a great, vivid look into Glorantha with a fairly low bar of entry. It also preserves some of the esoteric "don't think too hard about this right now, you'll get into it later" feel of a lot of Glorantha texts.

I know "phenotype" can sound a bit dodgy when applied to humans - but that I'm wondering is if there are any areas where we find people who have similar physical appearance to Native Americans (in its variety) in Glorantha? We do find stepped pyramids and human sacrifice a la Mezoamerica in Bliss in Ignorance, but no mention on the physical appearance of the people there, is it? My second guess was Onlaks or Laskal, partly because, again, there are mention of terraced, stepped pyramid-like structures in some of those cities there (although this might simply be terraced towns without pyramids exactly - though my mind went to the Mississippian culture). I've also been wondering whether Thinobutans - usually described as being of Agimori stock - would be more akin to Native Americans. There's also the Praxians, of course - whose societies are very inspired by post-Spanish-contact plains Indians, but most physical depictions of them seem more Wareran or Vithelan (if indeed they are consistent at all). I suppose it's also possibly that the Dino-Hsunchen of Slon and the people from around the Swermelan sea could have such physical features, but that's more about picking out a random spot on the map than anything else. The God Time myths of those areas seem more Polynesian/Melanesian-based than anything else. I'm perfectly open to there simply being no equivalent to this in Glorantha, of course - I'm just curious.

Is it possible that any of the Star Captains that descended to the surface had iron tools?

Meteors: Usually bits of the Firmament that fall down due to temporary God Time-Mundane World intersections, due to the sheer reverberating power of that conflict. Occasionally these bits also contain the bones of dead gods, or bits of their armor or weapons. The Mostali are hard work at sealing these mythospatial anomalies up. Sometimes meteors may also come from deliberate openings in the Firmament, where the Celestial gods deliver judgment and doom, usually invoked by powerful rituals such as the Treeburn or Skyburn. And sometimes, just sometimes, something else might come through. Something that really not ought to be in the World... (Just some loose ideas.)

Welp, that's interesting.

The issue over to what degree the mundane and spiritual or god planes overlap was made earlier, and I just wanted to add something from RW animism. As you probably know, the God Time concept in Glorantha is an adapted version of the Australian Aboriginal Dreamtime concept. This concept more or less states that the shape of the physical landscape is due to the acts of sapient entities of great power, and that these events continually occur and reoccur outside the normal realms of linear time. A person can partake in this experience by traveling along so-called "songlines", which are paths or tracks which are memorized through songs that commemorate the events that produced the various landmarks (ie. the map of the landscape is a lyrical narrative, navigation is mnemonic as well as sensory, as it were). Through song, dance, and possibly narcotic substances, the wanderer may partake in or act as the great beings that first created these songlines, (and by doing so keep the structure of the cosmos stable). There ARE different interpretations of the Dreamtime and songline concepts, but this is the one I was taught, at least. While these concepts are heightened in Glorantha due to it being fantasy entertainment that seeks to implement myths as closely into practical use as possible, the concept is essentially similar to how the Otherworlds in Glorantha are treated, from what I can tell. My point then, is just to address an earlier concern about the difference between the mundane landscape and the spirit plane or gods plane. I understand that for gameplay purposes, and high fantasy genre purposes, it's cool to have an actual transportation to a different plane - but I just wanted to add that there isn't anything to REQUIRE that one treats these as separate spaces. The physical is spiritual. The spiritual is physical. It's a matter of perceiving and of sacred knowledge. So, in others words, does it matter whether ones meets a spirit in a cave out in the brush, or whether you meet them in The Great Sacred Hollow in the Spirit Realm? Not for practical purposes. Not necessarily. The two caves are the same, yet not. They are different, yet not. If that's how you choose it to be. I understand that some of this anthro stuff gets in the way of conveying a good play session to players, however, so take what I'm getting at with a grain of salt if you will.

This statistical trend is why the Y-chromosomal Adam is significantly more recent than the Mitochondrial Eve, for example.