Shiningbrow

I just did a search for the word, and I haven't found that to be the case in most instances. Only a couple of times does it appear to be less categorical, and on those occasions it's phrased in a way that they are called a demon by some, but doesn't otherwise imply that they are. OTOH, the other uses of the word leave no doubts (unless one wants to add something that wasn't obvious... such as when they say "Demon Lord of...", or "Demon Lobster" etc.) Yes. Some (most?) are able to form a body in the material world (like a wraith or dryad), and so they'd have 'flesh and blood' (of a type). But they can be summoned as a spirit (the way that material world physical species can't be).* (*Noting that those called by Summons of Evil are 'called' rather than 'summoned' in the magical sense).

One thing I want to point out is the distinction in definitions will depend on which angle one is looking from If you're looking at it from within Glorantha, then the "Easy, it is not one of us, it comes from hell, it eats us... it's a demon! " will work - but only for them! However, if you're looking at this issue (as with many others, such as magic in general) from the perspective of a player or person here on Earth reading a fantasy TTRPG book, then the definition for a demon becomes a lot more specific. in this case, it's an embodied spirit from an underworld, with AP equal to HP equal to MP (according to the Bestiary). One simple first test should be - can it be summoned as any other spirit (like elementals, ghosts, guardian spirits, etc)? If yes, then it's not a troll! (obviously bypassing the 'ghost of a troll'

But, somehow, we're not supposed to take that to mean "all".... right! 🙄 Ummm - no. Just because something comes from the underworld does not make it a 'demon'. (except to certain cultures within the fictional world). I doubt many players would ever use the term 'demon' to refer to a 'troll'. Demons are explicitly stated as being embodied spirits. Trolls are not considered to be embodied spirits. And other than your photo, and "trolls come from the underworld", there is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever in the guide to suggest that this is the case, for any trolls, gargoyles "and the like" - let alone a large amount (however, not all). There is very good evidence that makes it pretty clear that this is not the case - as per my post above. Obviously, you can feel what you like about it, and make your Glorantha your way... but it's not supported by anything in writing from anywhere remotely official!

Again, I disagree. The GtT is quite happy to list numbers in the Population tables that go as low as 1000, and regularly mentions 5000. The maps, OTOH, regularly have numbers in the 2-4K mark (the lowest I noticed across the two books was 1K). So, if there were trolls (or gargoyles) in any amount higher than 1000, then there's a good chance they would have been specifically mentioned. If there was more than 5000, they most definitely would have been mentioned! And... less than 1000 trolls amongst a group of 240,000 demons.... sure, some of those Uz are pretty insane (ZZ), but not something I'd be willing (as an Uz PC) to put myself into. So... assuming 'demon' also means 'troll' (or 'gargoyle') is a pretty wild (and completely unwarranted) statement. Also, the Bestiary is reasonably clear about a couple of things (which GMs can freely ignore, of course). Firstly, demons are underworld spirits. I don't think that trolls are considered spirits just because they (sometimes) come from an underworld. Secondly, they have APs and HPs always equal to current MPs. Again, something trolls don't have. Sure, the Bestiary was written years after the GtG, and nomenclature may not be the same. But it is another piece of supporting evidence against there being a confusion between the two.

Ohhh... it was the colour (and the black background where I could still see stars) that threw me!

Hmmm.... I'd like to think (for a real contest), that A is good at some things, B at other things, and C at still other things... so not so easy to think there is one simple best candidate. (in the end, I still think Orate would be the most important of skills... enough to talk oneself into the position).

Apparently..... 😓 Again, i didn't think those would be so large (especially compared to the Red Moon...) I had envisaged most things in the sky to be somewhat small(er) - other than the aforementioned.

True. you didn't. But again, if that were the case, I still think that 'demon' wouldn't include them for the same reason I mentioned above. I think that it would be mentioned there there are more than humans and demons in the area (unless, of course, the number is so small as to be irrelevant and insignificant... ie, only a handful of the 240,000. (i.e., numbering less than even 100 - because I think even that many would be noteworthy)

I'd just like to point out that this is circular reasoning... (It's not important and so I am ambivalent. My ambivalence comes because I don't think it's important) If Greg wasn't ambivalent, and decided that it was important (canonical), then his interest/excitement/whatever (i.e., lack of ambivalence) would be just as well warranted.

Very cool what you've done ! I had always thought that a) the Red Moon was MUCH bigger, and b) the White and Blue Moons would be much smaller (barely perceptible), otherwise they'd have a much greater cultic following. I don't recognise Polestar, which I would have expected to be fairly central to upper central, and pretty much in the same spot. And more obvious than most other stars/planets/gods/spirits.

Sorry - I'm not disagreeing with that part! I was only focussing on how to have some other aspects of it as an RQ mechanism....

It's an unfortunate word - to have two distinct meanings. I prefer "Lhankoring magic". What would you call a LM who focuses their studies on and devotes their life to learning all about sorcery? (bound to be a few in Esrolia)

I sort of agree... but I presume there should be some sort of RQ mechanism to depict/define such people. Certainly, I'd suggest not only skills, but probably also Passions and maybe Runes (with associated personality traits). Reputation should also count. Depending on the position and the need for a certain cult member, Rune Points to the relevant god (in this case, probably Orlanth... although maybe Elmal or Humakt). And, if you're talking a pentathlon or similar, the numbers on a wide range of skills. (Orate actually probably being more useful than a weapon skill... along with (Homeland) Lore)

Well, true. But I find it difficult to imagine that in the same book that has large sections on the Uz and their culture, people, etc etc, that the word 'demon' would later be a substitute for them. I'm not saying there wouldn't be some trolls in the area. But 'demon' shouldn't be an automatic translation for 'troll' for all 240,000 of them. (PS - they 'qualify' only if you don't bother looking at the Bestiary)

I mean, those sorcerous perspectives still recognize the gods as in some sense real, they just don’t recognize them as being worthy of worship. They’re fully willing to accept that theistic worshippers are seeing some portion of a truth, at least truth as they experience and draw on it, but that’s qualified by the fact that it’s only a part of a greater entity within a much, much bigger story (hence the monomyth). There’s a reason the God Learners could (and did) tap myths and otherwise twist and alter them to gain incredible power, and why the gods themselves broke the compromise to doom them. And not even true for some sorcerers who are also theists - such as the current option to play a 'sorcerer' - a Lhankor Mhy initiate. I'm quite sure an LM initiate thinks LM is very worthy of worship, and their sorcerous abilities given to them ... by? ... LM are reason enough for that. LM gave them sorcery... pretty strong reason to see the merit in worship.

Thanks for the presumption of my stance/position... 🙄 I shall emphasise the thing I take issue with ... Granted, DrG took it a bit out of context. It doesn't have the 'theism' specific element, and doesn't include your follow-up about shamanism or mysticism.... which is - largely - where I was coming from. You made some very strong, very generalised statements regarding the practices of literally billions of people (real and fictional). And that's why I said it's not true. It appears to me (given some of your specific references), that you were focussing your attention on only a small subset of those people and religious practices (i.e., central/western European). Or perhaps you were using very specific definitions when you were writing this. You're obviously correct that no-one on Earth in the ancient days worshipped Orlanth or Ernalda (literally), but I'm taking the 'like' as an important word here. In Glorantha, there are many ways to follow (or not) certain gods (or great spirits... or even minor spirits) which parallel some ancient (people/individuals) religious (and social) practices.

What about herd-men? (how many are there???)

The Guide, around P473-478, makes no mention of trolls, and specifically mentions demons (and their human allies). There's a tunnel down to a hell on one of the islands.

I think you're doing a dis-service to the believers of those times. Considering that sometimes they would be under the influence of hallucinogenics (and sometimes without being aware of it), and being in an ecstatic trance situation, they would experience their gods. And when things out of the ordinary would happen (or when they needed it to be), again, they'd see their gods intervening. Luck, chance, fate, accidents, coincidence, synchronicity... Sure, it's not quite the same as in Glorantha, and the priests (and initiates and other Rune levels) can't make it happen on command. But other than that, there's not that much difference.

This is an important point. Gloranthan religions do work differently, because of the magic that comes from the gods. Seeing and experiencing that has to have an effect. Except - it's not true. Many in the ancient world (and not so ancient world) practice religion like in Glorantha. The only difference is that in Glorantha, other gods are just as real as yours. IRL, that's not true (mostly). This thing about magic - believe me when I say that people have believed in miracles (or magic) from various sources for tens of thousands of years. We should look at it like a rather weak god with little Rune Magic.

I'm confused. What culture are you referring to here? Because I see Orlanthi culture as quite dogmatic, priest-ridden (although perhaps not as much as IRL, but then we don't have Rune Lords either... or say, in Esrolia), obsessed with the life to come, and most definitely in charge of morality (albeit, not ours), and do see the gods as figures to emulate... (in some ways, to some extents...). While some players and GMs might approach RQ like that, that's not actually how the gods and people in Glorantha have been portrayed. Very specifically to your quote, kinslaying is evil (aka, chaotic). Now, this I sort of agree with... certainly with your other statement about PC's religions becoming more PC to fit 'modern' morals and standards. Runequest has become more woke... and that disappoints me. As mentioned before, the gods are real. Your character has seen this reality, multiple times. Their parents have, their grandparents have, all your friends, kin, kith, and all those around you have. The only time you meet up with someone who hasn't is usually when you're about to stab them in the face (well, abdomen... left leg??). And so, since you know they're real, you won't ever question any morality that they do or don't show. So, for the most part, yes - power is what gives you a sense of morality. We players get to read through various source books and decide on what we want to play, what cults to be a part of, what background we want. Characters don't. And just as the vast majority of humanity on Earth never seriously consider the beliefs they have been brought up with (over the last few tens of thousands of years), neither will the PCs and NPCs. Regardless of how (in)sane that religion may be. Social pressure, backed up with the literal force of the gods.

Sorry, I should have said "I don't see anything so contradictory that one couldn't do both". I'm aware of the differences in the systems and the implications that may entail. As you said, I figure some can find that middle ground. I'm sure that there would be Mistress Race Trolls that would have the amount of time necessary to achieve the full potential of both! And, probably others as well... but then, what's your definition of "full potential" for either of them?? Because, if I were to answer that, then very very few on the lozenge would ever achieve that "full potential" (ok, Brithini could). I would consider "full" to be able to access all Techniques (1, but that makes most spells expensive - however, so what??) and all Runes (minimum 12 - excluding Chaos). This means a minimum INT of 25. Do you have a different definition for "full potential"? (I'd especially like to read it for Shamans...).

@hipsterinspace You seem to be agreeing with me on the first couple of points, although I'd suggest that the attitude towards shamansim is different on Glorantha than on Earth. I still don't see any contradictions between shamanism and sorcery, and the attitudes you are referring to with the relationships seem to solely revolve around those with spirits (greater or lesser). I don't see a problem with a shaman learning sorcery to, say, Enhance their characteristics (e.g., POW or CHA), or for many of the other mundane effects. Even Lunar sorcery, which manipulates Spirit Magic (although, we're not yet sure if it's actual spirit magic, or merely an imitation of it). I don't know.... are you saying that deeply religious people on Earth (particularly shamans, given our topic) - or others with deep, personal, emotional connections, can't also have the mindset of intense mentalism? Don 't get me wrong... I'm not saying that it would be easy, and definitely not common. Just that it's possible, and some people have done it. (and PCs can do it). Fair point. But I do need to point out again - it's not merely Mistress Race Trolls who can do this... I'm not sure that MRTs would be taught sorcery first... granted, it would make sense doing this because of the years of intense mental exercises, but I can see it going the other way around. Also remember, MRTs have 2D6+12 INT, so yes, sorcery should come easily to them.. (the boosted POW & CHA help too).

Well, no, I don't approach things from that point of view. However, I would certainly think that once someone has become a shaman, then they would be in their 20s or so, and thus haven't had the years of patient, methodical mental exercises necessary for sorcery. I wouldn't say it's "beyond their comprehension", but it's not likely to be something that they'd ever head towards (largely out of need or desire - let alone out of tribal/clan obligations). Even though Uz can combine the training, I strongly suspect that the sorcery still comes first - just because of those early years of mental exercises.