Shiningbrow

I'd just like to point out that this is circular reasoning... (It's not important and so I am ambivalent. My ambivalence comes because I don't think it's important) If Greg wasn't ambivalent, and decided that it was important (canonical), then his interest/excitement/whatever (i.e., lack of ambivalence) would be just as well warranted.

Very cool what you've done ! I had always thought that a) the Red Moon was MUCH bigger, and b) the White and Blue Moons would be much smaller (barely perceptible), otherwise they'd have a much greater cultic following. I don't recognise Polestar, which I would have expected to be fairly central to upper central, and pretty much in the same spot. And more obvious than most other stars/planets/gods/spirits.

Sorry - I'm not disagreeing with that part! I was only focussing on how to have some other aspects of it as an RQ mechanism....

It's an unfortunate word - to have two distinct meanings. I prefer "Lhankoring magic". What would you call a LM who focuses their studies on and devotes their life to learning all about sorcery? (bound to be a few in Esrolia)

I sort of agree... but I presume there should be some sort of RQ mechanism to depict/define such people. Certainly, I'd suggest not only skills, but probably also Passions and maybe Runes (with associated personality traits). Reputation should also count. Depending on the position and the need for a certain cult member, Rune Points to the relevant god (in this case, probably Orlanth... although maybe Elmal or Humakt). And, if you're talking a pentathlon or similar, the numbers on a wide range of skills. (Orate actually probably being more useful than a weapon skill... along with (Homeland) Lore)

Well, true. But I find it difficult to imagine that in the same book that has large sections on the Uz and their culture, people, etc etc, that the word 'demon' would later be a substitute for them. I'm not saying there wouldn't be some trolls in the area. But 'demon' shouldn't be an automatic translation for 'troll' for all 240,000 of them. (PS - they 'qualify' only if you don't bother looking at the Bestiary)

I mean, those sorcerous perspectives still recognize the gods as in some sense real, they just don’t recognize them as being worthy of worship. They’re fully willing to accept that theistic worshippers are seeing some portion of a truth, at least truth as they experience and draw on it, but that’s qualified by the fact that it’s only a part of a greater entity within a much, much bigger story (hence the monomyth). There’s a reason the God Learners could (and did) tap myths and otherwise twist and alter them to gain incredible power, and why the gods themselves broke the compromise to doom them. And not even true for some sorcerers who are also theists - such as the current option to play a 'sorcerer' - a Lhankor Mhy initiate. I'm quite sure an LM initiate thinks LM is very worthy of worship, and their sorcerous abilities given to them ... by? ... LM are reason enough for that. LM gave them sorcery... pretty strong reason to see the merit in worship.

Thanks for the presumption of my stance/position... 🙄 I shall emphasise the thing I take issue with ... Granted, DrG took it a bit out of context. It doesn't have the 'theism' specific element, and doesn't include your follow-up about shamanism or mysticism.... which is - largely - where I was coming from. You made some very strong, very generalised statements regarding the practices of literally billions of people (real and fictional). And that's why I said it's not true. It appears to me (given some of your specific references), that you were focussing your attention on only a small subset of those people and religious practices (i.e., central/western European). Or perhaps you were using very specific definitions when you were writing this. You're obviously correct that no-one on Earth in the ancient days worshipped Orlanth or Ernalda (literally), but I'm taking the 'like' as an important word here. In Glorantha, there are many ways to follow (or not) certain gods (or great spirits... or even minor spirits) which parallel some ancient (people/individuals) religious (and social) practices.

What about herd-men? (how many are there???)

The Guide, around P473-478, makes no mention of trolls, and specifically mentions demons (and their human allies). There's a tunnel down to a hell on one of the islands.

I think you're doing a dis-service to the believers of those times. Considering that sometimes they would be under the influence of hallucinogenics (and sometimes without being aware of it), and being in an ecstatic trance situation, they would experience their gods. And when things out of the ordinary would happen (or when they needed it to be), again, they'd see their gods intervening. Luck, chance, fate, accidents, coincidence, synchronicity... Sure, it's not quite the same as in Glorantha, and the priests (and initiates and other Rune levels) can't make it happen on command. But other than that, there's not that much difference.

This is an important point. Gloranthan religions do work differently, because of the magic that comes from the gods. Seeing and experiencing that has to have an effect. Except - it's not true. Many in the ancient world (and not so ancient world) practice religion like in Glorantha. The only difference is that in Glorantha, other gods are just as real as yours. IRL, that's not true (mostly). This thing about magic - believe me when I say that people have believed in miracles (or magic) from various sources for tens of thousands of years. We should look at it like a rather weak god with little Rune Magic.

I'm confused. What culture are you referring to here? Because I see Orlanthi culture as quite dogmatic, priest-ridden (although perhaps not as much as IRL, but then we don't have Rune Lords either... or say, in Esrolia), obsessed with the life to come, and most definitely in charge of morality (albeit, not ours), and do see the gods as figures to emulate... (in some ways, to some extents...). While some players and GMs might approach RQ like that, that's not actually how the gods and people in Glorantha have been portrayed. Very specifically to your quote, kinslaying is evil (aka, chaotic). Now, this I sort of agree with... certainly with your other statement about PC's religions becoming more PC to fit 'modern' morals and standards. Runequest has become more woke... and that disappoints me. As mentioned before, the gods are real. Your character has seen this reality, multiple times. Their parents have, their grandparents have, all your friends, kin, kith, and all those around you have. The only time you meet up with someone who hasn't is usually when you're about to stab them in the face (well, abdomen... left leg??). And so, since you know they're real, you won't ever question any morality that they do or don't show. So, for the most part, yes - power is what gives you a sense of morality. We players get to read through various source books and decide on what we want to play, what cults to be a part of, what background we want. Characters don't. And just as the vast majority of humanity on Earth never seriously consider the beliefs they have been brought up with (over the last few tens of thousands of years), neither will the PCs and NPCs. Regardless of how (in)sane that religion may be. Social pressure, backed up with the literal force of the gods.

Sorry, I should have said "I don't see anything so contradictory that one couldn't do both". I'm aware of the differences in the systems and the implications that may entail. As you said, I figure some can find that middle ground. I'm sure that there would be Mistress Race Trolls that would have the amount of time necessary to achieve the full potential of both! And, probably others as well... but then, what's your definition of "full potential" for either of them?? Because, if I were to answer that, then very very few on the lozenge would ever achieve that "full potential" (ok, Brithini could). I would consider "full" to be able to access all Techniques (1, but that makes most spells expensive - however, so what??) and all Runes (minimum 12 - excluding Chaos). This means a minimum INT of 25. Do you have a different definition for "full potential"? (I'd especially like to read it for Shamans...).

@hipsterinspace You seem to be agreeing with me on the first couple of points, although I'd suggest that the attitude towards shamansim is different on Glorantha than on Earth. I still don't see any contradictions between shamanism and sorcery, and the attitudes you are referring to with the relationships seem to solely revolve around those with spirits (greater or lesser). I don't see a problem with a shaman learning sorcery to, say, Enhance their characteristics (e.g., POW or CHA), or for many of the other mundane effects. Even Lunar sorcery, which manipulates Spirit Magic (although, we're not yet sure if it's actual spirit magic, or merely an imitation of it). I don't know.... are you saying that deeply religious people on Earth (particularly shamans, given our topic) - or others with deep, personal, emotional connections, can't also have the mindset of intense mentalism? Don 't get me wrong... I'm not saying that it would be easy, and definitely not common. Just that it's possible, and some people have done it. (and PCs can do it). Fair point. But I do need to point out again - it's not merely Mistress Race Trolls who can do this... I'm not sure that MRTs would be taught sorcery first... granted, it would make sense doing this because of the years of intense mental exercises, but I can see it going the other way around. Also remember, MRTs have 2D6+12 INT, so yes, sorcery should come easily to them.. (the boosted POW & CHA help too).

Well, no, I don't approach things from that point of view. However, I would certainly think that once someone has become a shaman, then they would be in their 20s or so, and thus haven't had the years of patient, methodical mental exercises necessary for sorcery. I wouldn't say it's "beyond their comprehension", but it's not likely to be something that they'd ever head towards (largely out of need or desire - let alone out of tribal/clan obligations). Even though Uz can combine the training, I strongly suspect that the sorcery still comes first - just because of those early years of mental exercises.

I disagree with your first statement. Because of its very nature, it isn't just another scenario - it's a complete change of normalcy, and so the RQ rules don't apply, Without some form of rules, there would be disagreements between players and GMs. Rules make it easier for both sides to know what to expect, and what can be done, and what sort of rewards one can expect.

Got a decent reference for that? A) while I get the second part,, and I can understand the first part - although I'll question this idea of "souls are big enough" (what's that even supposed to mean in general, and then what's that supposed to mean specifically and mechanically) - that still doesn't help considering Dark Trolls are also able to "contain" (huh??) all 3 as well!

I was actually pretty close to doing a post along the lines of "Well, if you haven't figured it out after all these years, perhaps it's time to pass the ball onto someone else who can...". (then I read a post that said those rules might actually see the light of day... soonish.... as a playtest.....)

Then perhaps you should go back and read what we actually wrote...???? Ummm... while I'll buy it, I can't say it's something that I particularly "wanted" - not without that one thing that would really make it different to what has gone before - Heroquests. I can understand if you don't have any (or much) of the older stuff, which will be reproduced in the upcoming books. But for me (and, quite clearly, others) those HQs would be something that really makes them worth buying and investing in. And yes, I'd happily contentedly wait another year if that would be the case. I wish I wouldn't have had to, and this mess was sorted out already...

I think it stinks... 😁😁😁

Rhetorical, but I'll answer that anyway... The Horned Man? Darkness spirits?? (especially the bigger nastier ones) KL herself? I don't think that Mistress Race Trolls are at the top when it comes to this sort of thing...

I would generally agree with that statement - however I wouldn't say it's a categorical requirement. Besides, I think you may be thinking of Malkioni sorcery with the ... Certainly, the mental gymnastics required by sorcery might suggest it, but I don't think the attitude towards spirits is always going to be one of abuse, as a necessity.

I'm not seeing your point, in either your post of that of the WoD entry. I agree that it would be different - but I don't see it being contradictory. Sure, most never will, but it's obviously possible, because this is something that trolls do! The only reason I can see that sorcerers wouldn't get into shamanism is that it takes a lot of time and effort (and POW) away from sorcery. (they're also arrogant with regards to the spirits and the spirit world!) And one big reason I can see shamans not getting into sorcery is, again, the time, effort, POW, and the fact that being a good shaman usually means having lots of spirit magic spells on hand - and that would take up the Free INT for sorcery. Also, most shamans (ie, the average) won't have the necessary INT to become a shaman, won't be brought up in the right environment, and won't be able to read to a useful enough level. Other than that... I don't see a problem here.