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Indeed not! And I wasn't trying to deny that "Lunarization" is a real thing in many Dara Happan cults, including (and very specifically, for this discussion) Dendara. I'm asserting, however, that Sedenya provides women a pathway to growth that "Lunar Dendara" does not... and that it's (at least potentially) a pretty subversive thing, from a Solar perspective. And hence, sometimes a private matter, or even something covert, amongst (some of) the Dara Happan nobility. You aren't wrong; but the point I'm making -- or at least, trying to make (sorry for being unclear) -- is a different one. I'm explicitly avoiding religious & metaphysical implications, and looking strictly at the socio-cultural & political: Yelm worshipers know of Illumination, know that "oddities" result. This gives a context that Dara Happans can accept (when a Yelm-worshiping noble does something as weird as Sedenya-worship (wtf dude!)). Also, the cultural norm of the ruling class isn't violated by worship of a non-ruling deity, another (imho critical) element. This is a purely social/cultural/political analysis. It's a flimsy thing, really, in a mytho-magical world like Glorantha! It's wallpaper covering broken supporting walls. But... it's all the Solar Way has to cling to! You're right: there's a HUGE metaphysical problem waiting in the wings! Essentially-feminine Sedenya has conquered and rules over the masculine patriarchal Dara Happan nobility. Solar purity is polluted by the Lunar embrace-of-all -- explicitly even including Chaos! -- and by Lunar cycles ascending over Solar singularity, and... it's hard to find anything (other than the grossly material question of "rulership") that they have in common! The Solar Way is working really, really hard to ignore these problems. The "problems" are really ONE thing, and it isn't going away, no matter how hard they ignore it. But at least the wallpaper is intact! edit: dragging it back to Initiation -- I expect both Yelm and Dendara have straight-to-Sedenya paths, not passing through Initiating to the Seven Mothers

I'm looking at the question socially, culturally, rather than from the religious/metaphysical cultic POV, and "theorycrafting" (rather than explicitly citing canon) from the single basic fact (which IS in canon) that adult male nobles of Dara Happa all worship Yelm. For those boys who just WILL be Yelm-worshiping nobility -- no real choice or question in the matter -- joining Yelm straightaway seems like the only likely course. It differentiates from the teeming masses It's a display of purity and commitment It circumvents opportunities to experiment or dabble (that might cause "embarrassing" devotions elseDeity) Since "everyone knows" the lads will join Yelm's cult, all the reasons other groups have for not doing so... just don't apply. # # # Turning to Dendara, then... I look for an essentially identical cultural expectation. Because of her emphasis on "doing the right thing," on fulfilling the right roles, in the right way, it's probably even stronger in the female enculturation than in the male. The girls of the nobility will of course be joining Dendara! And of course they'd never consider anything else! Moving out of girlhood is identical to joining Dendara (or maybe (just an idle thought) there's even an earlier path to jointure, a pre-Dendaran "children's cult" that allows moving from being a dutiful child to being a dutiful woman? There is that whole "Legion of Infants" business with Jar-Eel...). Where I suspect Dendara worship differs, is that I think there's a strongly subversive element of Sedenya worship in the women of the Dara Happan nobility. I think some (and I'm VERY unclear how many!) Dendara worshipers become Red Goddess worshipers (possibly without ever Initiating into any of the Seven Mothers). Sometimes this is an open thing, but I expect that sometimes (especially for married/affianced women) it's kept secret: the feminist Lunars rule the patriarchal/misogynist Solars, and the Solars are busily trying not to notice or acknowledge this humiliating truth; when one of Dendara's "good girls" Initiates to that ultimate Bad Girl -- Sedenya -- it's particularly hard for them to maintain the self-deception. If the Yelm-worshiper is Illuminated, I expect this becomes a non-issue (or rather, the issue becomes more a PR/social one, than a cultic/metaphysical one). Yelm-worshipers becoming Sedenya-worshipers is ALSO a thing, of course; but IMHO it's a less problematic thing: it's rulership-to-rulership, and both Cults have strong traditions of Illumination (which to non-Illuminates often just appears as "dude, that's weird!" but provides some traditional context of the weirdness being, oddly enough, a normal thing: a known, recognizable, and acceptable thing.)

The doc is linked in that thread; do you have more work not in that doc? I don't want to step on any authors' toes (or rights), but I think it should get the widest possible distribution!

If Chaosium produce something based on the same material that differs greatly from Martin's, it's like to kill some people from the shock!

I had seen that "1610's" thread as it began, but never saw the summary and posted doc -- thanks for pointing it out (and of course, many thanks to @Puckohue !!! )

As noted in this thread, many Tricksters are deadly-serious & "decidedly un-comical." Also, the essence of Trickster is to flout convention and contravene the norms. An association with Magasta is hardly something Trickster-proof. (my two bolgs)

*eep!* Note that in character-generation -- even if you fought on Harrek's side -- you can end up with the Passion, "Fear: Harrek the Berserk"

There's a bunch of countryside deities, too! And I think those various deities (of city and country) form the majority of Dara Happan worship. I expect these deities may be approached more like the laity do in Sartar, a bit more gently, with the newly-initiated-adults doing some exploration and experimentation, meditation, counseling with religious figures, etc etc etc. And of course many never DO pursue Initiation! Sartar's high proportion of Initiates (with Rune Magic) is part of what makes them unusual. But the automatic "you're in this one" is the Dara Happan Imperial identity with Yelm the Emperor. Boys, I expect, move straight into Yelm upon becoming men; girls into Dendara.

No worries, man. I think the claim is bogus. D'you have ANY notion how many geeks had the hots for Padme Amidala??!? They'd ALL make that claim, if you gave 'em half a chance...

I think it's a question of how many people -- what percentage, roughly -- will be "harmed" (for a loose value of "harm") by the lack of spoilers. As the Good Master Storm Spear has pointed out... there's a substantial influx of newbies, to whom all this stuff is ... well, new. Some level of consideration for them seems apt! Of course, some of them are GM's, who are "immune" to spoilers... GM's, after all, are made of spoiler. So... how many people? Gee... I dunno. I don't really have any answers for you, Bill. Only an admission that the issue is... not complicated, exactly... let's call it nuanced.

I'd go to Chaosium directly with this (e-mail) not just hope that "somebody" will notice a forum-post... customerservice@chaosium.com I mean... somebody over there may very well notice! But nothing gets the attention like an e-mail in the inbox (well... OK... the tip of a rapier at the throat can sometimes get as much attention).

It's worth reiterating, I think, that "geting initiated into adulthood, as a member of the clan & tribe" is separate from becoming an Initiate of a Cult (Deity). Its another of those instances of "overloading" a term -- same word, very different contexts. I expect that SOME people initiate straight into a Cult during adulthood rites, but I expect that's more unusual (at least in Sartar). I think that -- for example -- the Dara Happan nobility might just have young adults move straight into Yelm or Dendara.

Hey! Wait just a bloody minute, here! Oliver Dickinson's Griselda, anyone???!? ... Bueller...? ANYONE?

Gaming is rife with "overloaded" terms, and always has been. "What level did you get to?" in D&D might have meant what character level, how deep into the dungeon you delved, or how potent a spell could you cast. Is "Ernaldori" any worshipper of Ernalda, or a member of a specific clan? Vinga-the-Deity has some elements not conforming to binary M/F gender. "Vingan" then may mean any mere worshippers of Vinga (who may in fact have cisfem gender (or may not)) OR someone whose non-binary gender relates mythically to Vinga's... But AFAIK such people needn't even be Vinga-worshippers!

I prefer (and I'm not alone in this) tracking the ACTUAL hp's per-location, rather than Major Wounds (those folk are heathens I tell you, HEATHENS!!!). It's a bit grittier, because while "major" effects are similar in both system, an unlucky series of minor wounds to one Location can be equally disabling. But I enjoy those narrative results. The rising tension, as couple of minor wounds render a location vulnerable to even 1-2 unlucky HP's of damage. The OMG as a solid (but not decommissioning) hit does the same. It doesn't always happen that way... But there's always that risk!

Gonna Taiko up an' HomboboBOOM you, you ain't careful son!

I like everything you said here, but especially wanted to call out this bit! Truer words never spoken... And I generalize it, for folks new to "crafty" activities: whenever you launch with a new medium or material, try a "junk" sampler first, something where you don't care if the product is awful and the materials wasted. Maybe second too, third, etc. Before you commit anything irretrievable or even expensive to replace (like a unique piece of wood, a brace of fresh Char your buddy brought on ice back from the Arctic Circle, or that one 40-year-old dungeon you prize above all others) be sure you test any method or technique with "ordinary" materials, until you are confident that you can do justice to the materials or opportunities that you CARE about. I learned the hard way... more than once. I hope the lesson has finally stuck!

Play strings? Play brass? Wotchoo got against reeds???

Vol.1 His Majesty's Dragon... You don't have to wait, the novels are available now! 😁

Naomi Novik wrote a series... Ya know how Traveller & StarTrek other sci-fi in the genre that has days-and-weeks-and-sometimes-even-months in space, is sometimes likened VERY directly to "Age of Sail" fiction? Captain Kirk as Horatio Hornblower in spaaace!, etc? So she went back to the ACTUAL age of Sail, the Napoleonic war. With one, tiny, difference... It turns out, with the right lighter-than-air (presumably helium) pseudo-scientific biological handwavery (you mustn't look TOO close, because it's actually impossible... but there's no other pseudo-science or other "magic" in the setting, so lean in HARD on suspending disbelief) ... It turns out dragons can fly! And in addition to armies and navies, the Napoleonic War was fought with an Aerial Corps. Horatio Hornblower of the skies! But also, the dragons can speak; so it's the story of the sea-captain who became an at-first-reluctant air-captain, and how his dragon won him over. ohyeahalsosomedragonscanbreathefireandsomecanspitacidandsomecanroarsonicattacksandDAMMITALLITOLDYOUTOLEANINHARD!!! But seriously, suspend the disbelief, accept the singular magic of dragons, and the series is a delight!

I'm afraid I won't be able to offer you every single new as it occurs.

Now you're just blowing things out of proportion!

Map it out for us, Bill!

You were specifically arguing "gameplay" -- i.e. at-the-table stuff, about PC's. @Minion1stClass suggested it wasn't a gameplay issue, and you explicitly disagreed. Now you seem to be backing away from that, and going to those broad background/setting topics; which is fine, let's talk about that! Population dynamics where a substantial part of the military are women, vs the question of military stability, etc... and... GO! *** I will point, first off, to the several nations who DO require (or encourage) women in the military. Scandinavian ones, China, Israel (they're maybe the most famous?), and more. I'm going to take Israel as my exemplar, because (AFAIK) the numbers are particularly-available (maybe my Google-fu just failed me on the others? Feel free to search them out, because the facts from Israel... do not support your POV). Wikipedia says that in 2016, the IDF considered about 1.5 million each (women and men) as "available for military service" (slightly fewer as "fit for military servce"). They figure about 60K of each gender, each year, joining the military for the minimum term (although it's true that "minimum" is only 2y for women, vs 3y for men). OECD (which covers most of Europe and a smattering of other countries (including the USA) nevertheless finds the Israeli population-growth to be TRIPLE the average for OECD countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel NOBODY thinks the IDF is struggling to be effective or hampered by their female soldiers, DESPITE the fact that their foes mostly do NOT allow female soldiers -- a striking disparity! China also drafts men and women, and famously struggles to keep their birthrate DOWN. This issue isn't actually an issue... not even for mundane/Earthly militaries and the (stable or growing) populations they serve! *** Then we add in the Gloranthan angle -- various magics that ease discomforts and/or allow full activities even in fairly advanced pregnancies: Gloranthan women are even MORE able to serve in the militaries than in the Real World! Also, even in advanced stages of pregnancy, many Ernaldans &c can perform military roles other than shieldwall duty -- summoning elementals and other spirits, for example -- from the back ranks and/or more-remote locations. Pregnancy just isn't the "problem" you seem to think it (militarily) is. EDIT: SORRY, JEFF, JUST SAW THAT I CROSS-POSTED WITH YOUR DIRECTIVE BACK TO OP-TOPICALITY OF "VINGA" edit 2: we can always spin another thread, if needed.

2-3 years onward & (afaik) no map ever got released... maybe there's a new Furthest product coming, and this is being rolled in??? Any update? Any ETA? Anything at all? Frothing fans want to know!