Pocharngo vs. Primal Chaos

[Ali the Helering]

47 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I mean, he only went bad after he was summoned from Hell by Argrath; before that he was an anti-Lunar hero.

Not all of us are fans of Argrath, either 👺

[scott-martin]

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Red Emperor doesn't really count when the husband is a different mask from the father, IMO.

Naveria, on the other hand, ...

More THOUGHTS later but negotiating these symbolically necessary but unspeakable relationships may be how the imperial mask system evolved in the first place. The people come and go and the relationships get complicated. The eternal drama persists.

Something similar in Pamaltela for Bolongo, whether he was introduced or promulgated there as a useful technology for exploitation. 

[Ali the Helering]

2 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

More THOUGHTS later but negotiating these symbolically necessary but unspeakable relationships may be how the imperial mask system evolved in the first place. The people come and go and the relationships get complicated. The eternal drama persists.

Something similar in Pamaltela for Bolongo, whether he was introduced or promulgated there as a useful technology for exploitation. 

It depends upon your culture as to whether such relationships are, indeed, unspeakable. Quite a few RW examples exist. 

[scott-martin]

Just now, Ali the Helering said:

It depends upon your culture as to whether such relationships are, indeed, unspeakable. Quite a few RW examples exist. 

Oh yeah. Just quoting my Totem & Taboo.

[g33k]

10 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

For a RW example of people who did absolutely horrifically monstrous things that at the same time many in this thread would probably find it hard to discount as complete monsters in and of themselves, just look to European colonialists and the transatlantic slave trade.

I certainly count the slavers themselves, the merchants, the captain/officers of transport ships, as "complete monsters."

I am willing to (in a few cases) cut some slack for buyers/owners.  Not many cases, but a few.

 

[g33k]

7 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

If the Vadeli are so evil, how could such an act be regarded by them as perverse?  If it wasn't, why would it produce a succubus?

The Vadeli can rape, and the victim experience this as evil & perverse, and the Vadeli use this in their ritual.  They don't have to personally see it as evil & perverse, any more than they see the succubus they created as evil and perverse.  Each is a means to an end, steps on a pathway... no more.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

6 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Not all of us are fans of Argrath, either 👺

the ancient enmity between Gbajitude and Arkatheit is one thing, but why would a Sheng Seleris fan hate Argrath? Sheng Seleris had been tortured in a Lunar Hell into madness, he hadn't escaped on his own. I fully believe he was still trapped by madness because he wasn't ready to return yet on his own.

Unless you meant because of the Lunar Empire. Well, I can like the Lunar Empire's theory and hate its praxis. I certainly adore the Lunar birth but it went... bad. Mostly I think the corruption is due to the death of Monsoon at the hands of the Sultanate of Tork, after which he was clearly tied together with a lot of string and duct tape. The old Lunar guide was pretty explicit about this.

[Ali the Helering]

6 hours ago, g33k said:

The Vadeli can rape, and the victim experience this as evil & perverse, and the Vadeli use this in their ritual.  They don't have to personally see it as evil & perverse, any more than they see the succubus they created as evil and perverse.  Each is a means to an end, steps on a pathway... no more.

 

I take your point. My comment is based on rape as violence and violation rather than a perverse sexuality. All a matter of which psychs one has read. I can't say that I have any desire to defend the Vadeli further! 🤢

[Ali the Helering]

5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

the ancient enmity between Gbajitude and Arkatheit is one thing, but why would a Sheng Seleris fan hate Argrath? Sheng Seleris had been tortured in a Lunar Hell into madness, he hadn't escaped on his own. I fully believe he was still trapped by madness because he wasn't ready to return yet on his own.

Unless you meant because of the Lunar Empire. Well, I can like the Lunar Empire's theory and hate its praxis. I certainly adore the Lunar birth but it went... bad. Mostly I think the corruption is due to the death of Monsoon at the hands of the Sultanate of Tork, after which he was clearly tied together with a lot of string and duct tape. The old Lunar guide was pretty explicit about this.

I suppose it all comes down to a liking for the horsemen of the steppes. 

Argrath was a self-serving adventurer, never caring about the good that was destroyed to achieve his goals. Ditto Sheng Seleris. Argrath had a better propaganda machine. 

Sheng Seleris is a hero as long as he serves the purpose of bringing down the Empire, after which he is a disposable annoyance. 

Moonson was a self-serving monarch with a well-organised propaganda machine. Ditto Sheng Seleris. 

Not too sure that there is a great morale imperative here. 

But I do like horses and the steppe😎

[davecake]

On 8/7/2019 at 7:26 PM, Joerg said:

Actually, they learned this in one of their defeats,

Yes, but that was very early. They learnt the lesson well  - we later see them, for example, separate the Matter and Energy of the entire Tadenit, give the bodies to the dwarves, and take the matter for themselves. Though I guess you could interpret that story as offering the Mostali just a bulk lot of human meat for canning, I prefer to think it is offering zombie labour. 

On 8/7/2019 at 7:26 PM, Joerg said:

I have no idea when or why this became a deity of its own.

I am positing that after the Vadeli turned wholesale zombification into a somewhat regular tactic, this great sorcerous energy complex later became a chaos god, perhaps by some sort of 'misapplied worship' by the Artmali, perhaps intentionally. But much later - during the Vadeli Empire. 

On 8/7/2019 at 7:26 PM, Joerg said:

The denizens of the Sex Pit apparently would have been known even prior to the Vadeli conquest of Chir and Poto.

More or less - though of course the Vadeli are mostly unlikely to use an Orlanthi myth. I don't think the Vadeli are the first people to discover that taboo sex has magical power - I am suggesting that the Vadeli might be the first people depraved enough to magically weaponise it on  a broad scale. 

On 8/7/2019 at 7:26 PM, Joerg said:

If incest creates succubi, then all first generation sacred ancestors will have produced many of these. The term "sister-wife" is fairly common in Gloranthan writings.

Yes, but confusing the sacred genealogies of deities with that of actual humans is a very different idea to positing that incest (an almost universal taboo) between close family members is psychologically healthy. I was also only mentioning it as an example - I think the Vadeli engage in a wide variety of cruel and sexually perverse behaviour, much of it around sadism and humiliation and worse. 

[davecake]

On 8/7/2019 at 8:47 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

For a RW example of people who did absolutely horrifically monstrous things that at the same time many in this thread would probably find it hard to discount as complete monsters in and of themselves, just look to European colonialists and the transatlantic slave trade.

I think the Vadeli of Chir would have looked at the Belgian Congo and nodded approvingly. 

On 8/7/2019 at 8:47 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

The difference, I suppose, is that the Europeans were preoccupied with justifying their acts with reference to their God, whereas Vadeli... don't? Or do the Vadeli believe in an Invisible God that they either are spiting, or perhaps worshipping in the "only real way"?

I think they are culturally nihilists, more or less. They cooperate with one another out of a combination of a need to maintain immortality, familiarity and shared background, and a sort of cultural game theory that says they need to punish one another for major transgressions. They don't need to justify acts against non-Vadeli by anything other than personal benefit, and a shared agreement that the course of action is logical. 

[davecake]

21 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

If the Vadeli are so evil, how could such an act be regarded by them as perverse? 

The universe can have different opinions to the Vadeli. This really the same idea that if ogres find cannibalism to be fine, why are they evil just for thinking other people are food animals? I don't think acts such as rape, torture, etc can be dismissed as being without moral weight, there are limits to the moral relativism of the Gloranthan magical world. And something being taboo or wicked it not the same as not doing it - I think the Vadeli feel the same visceral response of something being taboo that normal humans do at incest, torture, sadism etc - they just find the taboo nature adds to the excitement, they are entirely without empathy, and have convinced themselves that there are no real logical consequences to giving in to such indulgences in regard to other, lesser, humans if you can do so. Basically a lot of serial killer type psychology among the Vadeli. 

[davecake]

19 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Something similar in Pamaltela for Bolongo, whether he was introduced or promulgated there as a useful technology for exploitation. 

I think Bolongo is a native Pamaltelan Trickster. 

[davecake]

On 8/7/2019 at 7:26 PM, Joerg said:

I would expect that rather than creating new deities, these rituals enslaved and then twisted and tainted deities into new ones.

I think to the deep sorcerous world view of the Vadeli, this isn't that much different. They understand that deities are just abstract energy clusters, that acquire any concept of personality etc through magical interaction with mortals. 

On 8/7/2019 at 7:26 PM, Joerg said:

If that's what you want from your purely evil Vadeli, go ahead.

Well, I've literally not seen anything written about the Vadeli to suggest they are misunderstood. 

This the description of the Vadeli from the Guide

Quote

Despite being descended from Malkion, the Vadeli reject Malkion’s laws utterly and their culture deliberately and knowingly transgresses against the laws of the universe. All Vadeli are notable for their lack of empathy, cold- heartedness, egocentricity, superficial charm, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, impulsivity, criminality, lack of remorse, and a complete disregard for morality.

if you can find much positive about the Vadeli in there, please talk them up. But that is pretty much just someone listing the diagnostic criteria for sociopathy, only a little worse. 

On 8/7/2019 at 7:26 PM, Joerg said:

The attack on the Tadeniti wasn't unprovoked - it was the consequence of Zzabur using Tadeniti magics to skin the Vadeli leaders for his books of magic.

I don't think there is any evidence to suggest this, rather than Zzabur doing so later during the war period. But even if it was so, the Vadeli would still be sociopaths, practicing genocide to spite Zzabur. 

[Joerg]

22 minutes ago, davecake said:

The universe can have different opinions to the Vadeli. This really the same idea that if ogres find cannibalism to be fine,

Ogres don't usually practice cannibalism - at least I have seen nothing to indicate that ogres devour other ogres regularly, or as the result of a victory in intra-racial disputes. Ogres prey on humans. That's similar to chimpanzees preying on monkeys.

 

Quote

why are they evil just for thinking other people are food animals?

It isn't "other people". It is other species. The uz are a lot more problematic with their harvesting of trollkin.

 

Quote

I don't think acts such as rape, torture, etc can be dismissed as being without moral weight, there are limits to the moral relativism of the Gloranthan magical world.

The main difference between unicorns and broos is that the unicorns target only females (though it isn't clear whether they are attracted to first estrus or whether they claim virgin heard beasts) and that the birth of a unicorn is less likely to lead to the death of the mother. Boo propagation is nasty, but so are the larvae of parasitic wasps.

Other forms of forced consensualities with dependants are common, and little better. Stand-ins for a deity in a rite aren't always volunteers, as Biturian's visit in Sun County shows. (But then his relationship with Norayeep doesn't exactly start out as healthy, either.)

Tusk Rider sacrifices experience massive torture. Apparently "corrective disciples" in Kralori reorientation camps fare little better. In either case a transcendence of the soul is what this is about. The troll rite of rebirth is another form of transformative torture.

Initiatory rites contain torture elements, too. And cults that you are born into which require voluntary self-mutilation (e.g. Gerra on the Descending Pyramid of Dezarpovo) are problematic, too.

We accept other behavior in our alter egos, like killing fellow humans or sapient beings for money or favors. Little of all that is actually morally healthy.

 

Quote

And something being taboo or wicked it not the same as not doing it - I think the Vadeli feel the same visceral response of something being taboo that normal humans do at incest, torture, sadism etc - they just find the taboo nature adds to the excitement, they are entirely without empathy, and have convinced themselves that there are no real logical consequences to giving in to such indulgences in regard to other, lesser, humans if you can do so. Basically a lot of serial killer type psychology among the Vadeli. 

The Vadeli race is cursed. Cursed by Zzabur. That's quite similar to the Telmori curse pronounced by Talor.

We don't know when and how Zzabur cursed the Vadeli. We know why - they wouldn't obey him and obstructed his plans. The Vadeli took on themselves terrible vows to enact a revenge on Zzabur, and that pushed them into the behavior they are loathed for.

How different are they from the Hellwood Elves? Or from the rebeling Veldang in Fonrit? Or from the Lunar uprising against the Bull Shahs?

[Joerg]

10 minutes ago, davecake said:

I don't think there is any evidence to suggest this, rather than Zzabur doing so later during the war period. But even if it was so, the Vadeli would still be sociopaths, practicing genocide to spite Zzabur. 

That is the story where the Vadeli are part of the six tribes of Malkion, and where Vadel starts out as an agent of Zzabur.

 

The Brithela story has the Vadeli as the original human inhabitants of Brithos/the West, pushed out of their inheritance by the upstart children of Malkion the Founder (and they are not descended from him in this story). After a period of genocide and expulsion, the Vadeli find or steal sorceries to counter Zzabur. The Blue, Red and Brown books of Zzabur happen here, too. So everything Zzabur stands for or enforces is regarded as evil - even basic social rules. It is part of their magic to resist the overpowering magics of Zzabur.

 

Yes, the Vadeli are sociopaths, but Zzabur is every bit as sociopathic as the Vadeli.

[davecake]

On 8/7/2019 at 11:06 PM, Ali the Helering said:

Some of us actually rather admire Sheng Seleris…..

He has some remarkable qualities, but I don't think admiration is the term I would use. 

On 8/8/2019 at 12:36 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

I mean, he only went bad after he was summoned from Hell by Argrath; before that he was an anti-Lunar hero.

This is very much like saying Stalin is an anti-fascist hero during WW2, after the Holodomor. I mean, sure he murdered millions through an intentional famine (hey, just like Sheng!), sure he viciously purged thousands (hey, just like Sheng!), but we have a mutual enemy. Sheng also murdered thousands in cold blood just to provoke a response from the Exarchs. 

When literally the best thing you can say about Sheng as a ruler is that he tortures because he genuinely believes that enduring torture has spiritual value, that is pretty damn bad. 

The excerpt from the story of Greya Two-Eyes, written by Greg, excerpted in Moon Rites has details about life in Peloria under Sheng when describing her childhood. It talks about her eating centipedes, leaves and cockroaches out of starvation (she is not breast fed because her mother is also starving and has no milk). The 'demons' who are Sheng's troops come around regularly to rape all the women they can find, and murder those who resist - Greya is hidden (buried with only her nose out of the dirt, then covered with boards and weeds) and so not raped that time (her mother is raped and her aunt killed), but is raped by the nomads later in her life. They are able to save her the first time because the rape and murders are not a surprise, but a regular expected thing. The famine is mostly because Sheng has basically destroyed all the farms, because he hates agriculture. Though his men do also steal what other food they can find. 

That is life under Sheng. 

He may be an anti-Lunar hero, but he is also a monster. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by davecake

[scott-martin]

56 minutes ago, davecake said:

I think Bolongo is a native Pamaltelan Trickster. 

Great to see you so active lately!

For me he's complicated by the "bad things come to Pamaltela from the north" theory where he goes away and sends spirits and monsters back. That sounds like a cult that either collaborates with foreign forces or gets coopted. Of course there can be many Bolongo . . . there's also "his best known tale" of taking over the Artmali Empire through parody where foreigners are intimately involved. (Whirlwind people? Keraun's people or someone else?)

Sociologically of course the mask is a very useful technology for expressing impulses that otherwise don't fit into the structure and one's everyday role. This is how you break taboo and skirt the consequences. In the Arbennan system, that's explicitly the flayed Bolongo face that presumably anyone can put on at any time and become someone new. More generally all the esiti must have their sacred costumes that differentiate the dancer into the god . . . figuring out the principle through which that operates is heavy magic as the Garangordites discovered. To pick a mask from the ancient gallery, as it were, allows the magician to transgress with something like impunity. After all, you can theoretically always take the mask off and then it gets blamed. 

Flaying also happens to be a key zzaburist trope as a colleague would say. He is mask maker extraordinaire, only he binds faces together and calls them his books. I find this most useful when inverted: is it possible someone we know has been wearing "zzabur" like a mask for a long time now? And in that case, can we trust anything he tells us about how awful this other people he calls the "vadeli" really are or were?

Somebody invaded the south and ran amok in Brithos. IMG the rest may not be straightforward. 

In terms of the canon I'm not sure when or even if the original Vadelites received the Law. In the paracanonical Dawn Age, Hrestol comes to teach the matriarchal people of the islands it's possible to transgress and survive but somewhere between then and now they seem to have evolved. For one thing, there's no room for a "Vadel" in these stories unless Vadela has gone through changes of her own. She had many husbands but none named like her. So who, I wonder, is the "Vadel" who shows up in RM?

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by scott-martin
this is how you break taboo

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Ogres don't usually practice cannibalism - at least I have seen nothing to indicate that ogres devour other ogres regularly, or as the result of a victory in intra-racial disputes. Ogres prey on humans.

Ogres are humans with a chaos rune, that's the entire point of ogres. The entire point of it is cannibalism and incest to steal and intensify power of the bloodline - but it's a human bloodline, no matter how corrupt. The Red Cow clan introduction has an entire bit about this...

[Ali the Helering]

10 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Ogres are humans with a chaos rune, that's the entire point of ogres. The entire point of it is cannibalism and incest to steal and intensify power of the bloodline - but it's a human bloodline, no matter how corrupt. The Red Cow clan introduction has an entire bit about this...

IIRC (no books in front of me) they have different stats to humans. Which makes them no-human in the same way gern and Agimori are non-human.  Not a value judgement, simply the way they are. 

[davecake]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Vadeli race is cursed. Cursed by Zzabur. That's quite similar to the Telmori curse pronounced by Talor.

The Vadeli are cursed because they are sociopaths and nihilists.

Some of them survived Zzaburs - but none of the yellow or blue vadeli, and I do not think that is a coincidence - Zzabur tried to destroy them all, but prioritised destroying their leadership, and that may be a specific curse than simple targetting. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

3 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

IIRC (no books in front of me) they have different stats to humans. Which makes them no-human in the same way gern and Agimori are non-human.  Not a value judgement, simply the way they are. 

Wait, Agimori aren't human?

Did you mean Agitori (the immortal ones)?

Although I agree with the overarching point that we know cannibalism occurs (trolls and trollkin, and in the extended "sapient-eating-sapient", trolls eating humans, elves and dwarves too) without this appearing to be Chaos-inducing in itself.

I doubt we'll reach any consensus on the degree to which Glorantha as a Physical and Moral Cosmos has objective boundaries across all sapient species and cultures. It's too vague, imho.

[davecake]

5 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Which makes them no-human in the same way gern and Agimori are non-human. 

I do not think the Agimori/Men-and-a-half are non-human, just humans significantly altered by long term magic. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

Just now, Ali the Helering said:

Agimori

uhhh maybe you mean Agi. Agimori are people - they are one of the Praxian tribes, they include the Doraddi, they include half the Pygmies of Glorantha, and they also make up the population of one of the nations of the West, having arrived by boat to fight (apparently) Nysalor.

And they represent the indigenous inhabitants of Pamaltela. Saying Pamaltelans are nonhuman would uhhh not be a good look.

Also, the Blue Peoples are human even if they came fromfrom 1. the Moon or 2. the Blue Planet  in the Green Age.

[Qizilbashwoman]

7 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

they have different stats to humans

this is a terrible way to determine if someone is human, because stats are relative. inbreeding and Chaos features of the cult change them but don't remove their humanity. also, stats change based on gear and power levels, which ogres gain by eating people...