Feedback on my Spol writeup?

[davecake]

On 9/2/2019 at 8:56 PM, Byll said:

The Pyramid of Derdromus at Karresh and it's underworld connection is probably relevant to your 'Greater Spol' cultural area.

Natha's Well is also part of the Greater Spol cultural area, though it is on the other side of the Oronin to Spol proper. Entakosiad pg 66 implies that this was where the Spolite Empire reconstructed the city of Hagu. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by davecake

[Joerg]

7 minutes ago, davecake said:

Natha's Well is also part of the Greater Spol cultural area, though it is on the other side of the Oslir to Spol proper. Entakosiad pg 66 implies that this was where the Spolite Empire reconstructed the city of Hagu. 

The Oronin river, surely?

I keep wondering whether the inverted pyramid in the copper tablets in the view from above should have been northwest rather than southwest. (Guide p.115-117)

[davecake]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Oronin river,

Corrected. 

 

10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I keep wondering whether the inverted pyramid in the copper tablets in the view from above should have been northwest rather than southwest. (Guide p.115-117)

I can't think any particular reason to associated Suvaria with a pit, and it is in about the right position for Gerra's pyramid or Natha's well. 

[Tindalos]

16 hours ago, davecake said:

Corrected. 

 

I can't think any particular reason to associated Suvaria with a pit, and it is in about the right position for Gerra's pyramid or Natha's well. 

Given it's position between what would be Hamados (modern Karantas -- the Red City) and Alkoth (the Green City), my guess that may actually be the Ebon City (aka the Black City) with its sacred place being the cave leading to the fourth hell.

 

Edit: Oh, also although called the Descending Pyramid, Gerra's Pyramid as described in the Entekosiad is actually a regular one. The top is a square block, and its sides are tall and steep.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Tindalos

[Nevermet]

Labour Day and prepping for the fall semester ate up this week.

I'm going to read through and make comments over teh course of the day.

 

And again, thank you for the feedback! This is awesome.

[Nevermet]

On 9/2/2019 at 1:51 AM, Crel said:

As a neophyte, relatively speaking, I'm really enjoying what I see as I skim through your writeup. One of my challenges when venturing out of Dragon Pass/Prax is that the cultures overlap and tangle atop one another really quickly, and I start to feel lost in the distinctions. (In particular, I feel this increases the farther north I wander.) In contrast, your writeup feels concise and consequentially more engaging. I really like the "What my Maskmaker told me" section. I also like how this writeup interacts with and justifies human sacrifice, describing what Earth humans see as dark and awful in a... well, still somber, but more acceptable and necessary sense.

I could see myself trying to play a Spolite, is what I'm trying to get at. And that's not often my reaction to Gloranthan religion/culture writeups.

Thanks for sharing your work.

Thanks! 

That was my goal, and I'm really happy it was successful for you.  As fun as it is to try to organize the myths or figure out the sociopolitical reality of Glorantha, at the end of the day it is a RPG setting, and therefore one of the purposes of a good setting is to facilitate play.  If a culture makes no sense, that's a problem, especially in Glorantha which feels so anthropologically rich.  The Spolites may be good or evil or something else, but they're human beings, and their culture should make sense.

[Nevermet]

Regarding Talargs / Elves

 

On 9/2/2019 at 6:56 AM, Byll said:

This is a really interesting viewpoint on Northern Pelanda. I've been meaning for some time to do something based around the unusual local rules-of-engagement in Human-Tararg waves of afforestation and deforestation where there seem to be well defined refuge areas in which 'defeated' enemies are allowed to congregate under relatively benign oversight of the victors. Much to chew over. The Pyramid of Derdromus at Karresh and it's underworld connection is probably relevant to your 'Greater Spol' cultural area.

 

Yeah, I really need to make more sense of pre-Spol Pelanda, the Lendarshis, and the Talargs of Greenwood.  The info from the Guide and the maps in the Fortunate Succession suggest conflicts, and I like your idea of refuges.  I also like the idea that not all the humans supported the Lendarshi.

 

And as you point out, a lot of this comes to a head at Karresh, which is where a Spolite Emperor was born, has Elves and humans living near one another peacefully with one another since God Time.  The apparently stable relationship between underworld worship, elves, and the Spolites is very, very striking to me.

 

I am very curious what happens in Northern Pelanda during the Reforestation of the Hero Wars.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Hm... the primeval tree canopy absorbs the light, making the underbrush dark and shadowy.... Too literal thinking, or extended allegory?

(Greater Darkness notwithstanding)

[Nevermet]

Regarding Sorcery & Necromancy

 

On 9/1/2019 at 11:00 PM, davecake said:

Also, a modern (definitely Carmanian, rather than Pelandan) Darkness based sorcery tradition, focused on summoning underworld beings, including necromancy. Which of course has suspicious links with vampiric sorcerous traditions. 

I completely agree that there is darkness sorcery in Carmania.

Also, could someone confirm for me that necromancy is defined as sorcery focused on the underworld? I honestly cannot remember if I made that up in my head, or if that's an actual definition for Glorantha.

 

In either case, reading the Entekosiad, I would argue that there is a case to be made for pre-dawn sorcery in Wendaria / Pelanda from several sources:

1. Yargan.  It can be debated how sorcerous Yargan was personally, but he clearly had sorcerous minions, and it appears Yargan had associations with both water and death (and therefore the underworld).
    
2. Gurgo.  Gurgo is a a sorcerer who helped Daxdarius force his way into the High Gods.  To me, this sounds like anti-theist sorcery.  Additionally, this story feels thematically similar to Velortina developing a set of rites that allows humans to break connections to a god with no negative consequences.  The ideas that mortals get to boss gods around does not really feel like Storm or Sun Tribe myths to me, and they feel rather sorcerous in attitude.
    
3. Third Eye Blue Tribe.  Sorcerous metalworkers in the Brass mountains.  Trying to smooth out the continuity for this as they appear in the Entekosiad and the Guide to Glorantha will be a nightmare, and I'm not up to the challenge right now.  Suffice to say: sorcerous metal-working based on Mostali knowledge.
    
4. Idovanus.  This one is very tenuous.  However, I think one could make the case for communication-based sorcery being associated with Idovanus, whose name literally means the bearer of speech.

The reason why I wanted to go through that list is that there is no pre-Dawn tradition of darkness sorcery, and darkness only seems to be expressed explicitly in terms of the underworld.

 

So where does darkness sorcery come from?  My best guesses are the fight against Nysalor lead to it being invented locally, and Carmanians as you said.  I increasingly like the idea of vampires being involved in the Spolite Empire

[Nevermet]

26 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Hm... the primeval tree canopy absorbs the light, making the underbrush dark and shadowy.... Too literal thinking, or extended allegory?

(Greater Darkness notwithstanding)

That could work.

And also, frankly, I can imagine a gruesome symbiosis between humans and Talargs during the Bleak Times, when the world is breaking and survival is near impossible:

Humans sacrifice themselves to the Elves, allowing the forests to grow.  In exchange, Elves allow humans to feast upon the fruits of the woods, allowing humans to be fed.  It's a twisted sort of reciprocal cannibalism.

[Nevermet]

Regarding Darkness Goddesses and Umbarism

Regarding Netta/Xentha and Subere, I see the Spolites as directly connected to Velortina of Hagu, and as such, I view Spolitism as having a pretty maleable list of gods at any given point in time, even more than others.  So, after its established that Spolitism is about darkness and the underworld, they probably grabbed any divinity they could that fit that mission, and started editing out gods that didn't fit well.  (On another issue, I;d imagine that Spolites have a very complicated relationship with Humakt)

So, yes, I completely agree that modern Spolitism has a place for Xentha, Xiola Umbar, and Subere.  I'm tempted to equate Xentha with KataMoripi the Dead Sky, but I suspect that won't work in the end.

 

As for Azerlo, I equated Azerlo with Xiola Umbar because I wanted to find a Pelandan darkness goddess of compassion, as this is the brief description of Xiola Umbar and I was trying to figure out where the term "Umbarism" comes from.  Azerlo was the closest I could find in The Entekosiad.  That being said, she's not a great fit for a few reasons, as people have pointed out.

If I was wrong about this association, and it looks like I was, then I'm still left without a clear explanation of why Spolitism is called "Umbarism" in Dara Happa, given that Xiola Umbar is not a name in either Pelanda or Dara Happa. I hate to blame the Uz, but I don't feel like I have a better answer.  (New Umbarism and My Good Old Shadow are other headaches I'll worry about later).  Given that Umbarism shows up immediately after the fall of Nysalor, I'd imagine that Arkati Uz and Spolitism filled a power vacuum and were blended in various ways.

Of the suggestions, I lean toward thinking Azerlo is Annara Gor.  She's ugly, and rules part of the underworld.  It would also then work that Vaskerele, Son of Turos and current regent of Hell, would also be Deshlotralas.  Mother and son ruling the underworld as Turos parties it up and Derdromus is pouting and scary people.

[Nevermet]

Illumination

A few people talked about this, but here's my take.

IMG, the illumination offered by Spolitism was based on a transcending of the opposition of life & death.  In doing so, it drew from the experiences of Gerra and Vogestes.  Vogestes taught sacrifice and hunting and worshipping death and was "inspired".  Gerra is an extremely undeveloped character who somehow was regenerated after allowing herself to be tortured, impaled, and annihilated by demons.  From inside their religion, Spolitism isn't about balance as much as a certain version of DerMaElsor that is defined as uniting life and death.  Natha has a role in that, but the beginning of this path is rather different than Jernotian balance.

 

I also agree with Davidcake that Black Sun Worship seems to have developed separately.  That said, I do find some things intriguing.  Specifically, the idea that human sacrifice is necessary to maintain reality.  I read the entry in the Guide about the Black Sun, but I don't know enough to really say more than this.

[Nevermet]

On 9/1/2019 at 11:12 PM, MOB said:

Make sure you read this story by @Nick Brooke!: http://rpgreview.net/mob/yolanelaspurned.htm

Now THATs fun.  I have a few things I'm now wondering about

First, are the children she mentions children that have already been born by 1621 (the time of the Guide to Glorantha)?  If so, I assume that would be Saranko, the High Priest of Invisible
Orlanth, and/or Alehandro of the Brass Arm, Satrap of Spol.  If not, the we're talking about new children.  Either way is interesting.

 

Second, who in the North?  An Eolian hero? I can imagine Yolanela being interested in Door Stones.  Or perhaps a Char-Un Kahn?  I assume that the Char-Un and Spolites don't really get along, but I'm sure she could look past that in the name of power.

[Nevermet]

Also, um.... my responses were excessive.

Sorry

[Joerg]

37 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

Regarding Sorcery & Necromancy

 

I completely agree that there is darkness sorcery in Carmania.

Also, could someone confirm for me that necromancy is defined as sorcery focused on the underworld? I honestly cannot remember if I made that up in my head, or if that's an actual definition for Glorantha.

Two major necromantic entities (Vivamort/Nontraya, Zorak Zoran) are associated with the Underworld, as are the realms of the dead.

One problem with the term "necromancy" is that it has plenty interpretations.

Communication with the deceased via Axis Mundi or similar means might be regarded as necromancy, as well as interaction with ghosts.

Animating dead bodies like apparati, by inserting random (ghoulish) spirits, or by returning a semblance of the previous identity, is another typical effect in necromancy.

Draining Life(force) is a necromantic trait.

37 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

In either case, reading the Entekosiad, I would argue that there is a case to be made for pre-dawn sorcery in Wendaria / Pelanda from several sources:

Definitely.

37 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

1. Yargan.  It can be debated how sorcerous Yargan was personally, but he clearly had sorcerous minions, and it appears Yargan had associations with both water and death (and therefore the underworld).

And Yargan may only have been the second of the blue people sorcerers. Already King Oronin is likely to have been (or brought) riverine Waertagi with him.

The nature of Yargan is less easily recognizable. Yargan was a foe of King Oronin who slew the original King Blue, then sort of inherited the title.

37 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

1. Gurgo.  Gurgo is a a sorcerer who helped Daxdarius force his way into the High Gods.  To me, this sounds like anti-theist sorcery.  Additionally, this story feels thematically similar to Velortina developing a set of rites that allows humans to break connections to a god with no negative consequences.  The ideas that mortals get to boss gods around does not really feel like Storm or Sun Tribe myths to me, and they feel rather sorcerous in attitude.

This depends on when exactly you place the emergence of Pelanda from Wendaria. Wendaria has all those cute nude folk doing all kinds of First Deeds all over again after being cast out from the functional parent and firstborn son.

37 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

1. Third Eye Blue Tribe.  Sorcerous metalworkers in the Brass mountains.  Trying to smooth out the continuity for this as they appear in the Entekosiad and the Guide to Glorantha will be a nightmare, and I'm not up to the challenge right now.  Suffice to say: sorcerous metal-working based on Mostali knowledge.

Not that much in terms of gods-affecting sorcery, though.

37 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

1. Idovanus.  This one is very tenuous.  However, I think one could make the case for communication-based sorcery being associated with Idovanus, whose name literally means the bearer of speech.

Lord of the higher energies, possibly more a source of magical energies than of spellcraft. The twin brother of Ganesatarus in the womb of Uleria, according to Fortunate Succession: Carmanian Sources. Basically a necessary pre-read to the Entekosiad.

37 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

The reason why I wanted to go through that list is that there is no pre-Dawn tradition of darkness sorcery, and darkness only seems to be expressed explicitly in terms of the underworld.

And the Underworld/Darkness/Dead Realms are fairly hostile to the entire concept of sorcery and access to the pure energies. Unless this uses something like the second principle of thermodynamics that says as long as there is a lower level of energies, a flow from the present to the lower level will provide the energy to power magic.

37 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

So where does darkness sorcery come from?  My best guesses are the fight against Nysalor lead to it being invented locally, and Carmanians as you said.  I increasingly like the idea of vampires being involved in the Spolite Empire

YarGan as worshiper of Ganesatarus is a likely candidate to have brought it. It is all very much pre-Arkat. Yes, the faithless guardian of Subere's treasures later known as Vivamort may be a bridge.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

First, are the children she mentions children that have already been born by 1621 (the time of the Guide to Glorantha)?  If so, I assume that would be Saranko, the High Priest of Invisible Orlanth, and/or Alehandro of the Brass Arm, Satrap of Spol.  If not, the we're talking about new children.  Either way is interesting.

There is also Brostangius Archmoor, the Hierophant of the Cult of Idovanus, another son of Yolanela, and "seven knights of renown" (Men-of-All of renown?). Guide p.324. And yes, all these boys were born well before 1605. With 10 known sons and probably roundabout a half dozen daughters, it is possible that there are more, younger children (especially among the daughters) which still may have to prove themselves.

 

9 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

Second, who in the North? 

And how far north?

9 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

An Eolian hero? I can imagine Yolanela being interested in Door Stones. 

They are the Thunder Delta slingers, with possible paths to Umath even the Orlanthi are ignorant of.

9 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

Or perhaps a Char-Un Kahn?  I assume that the Char-Un and Spolites don't really get along, but I'm sure she could look past that in the name of power.

While the Char-un come across as a lot less benevolent than Lendarsh and his regime, there is mythical precedent for horse warlord rule in Spol long before Sheng Seleris. Dranz Goloi might be another variant of the horse warlord from the north.

 

Poralistor riverine Waertagi are a possibility. Altinelans are one. Denizens from Valind's Winter Palace are possible. Or a Rathori hero.

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Two major necromantic entities (Vivamort/Nontraya, Zorak Zoran) are associated with the Underworld, as are the realms of the dead.

Necromancy literally meaning "death-omancy", it can go either way with what you mean by it

The big difference between Vivamort-Nontraya and ZZ, of course, is their characters. The first is a subtle and cruel manipulative Chaos monstrosity, the second is a wild god of hate who has been aimed at Chaos quite a lot in history to very good effect. His undead are very strange and don't act like those of Chaos deities; they are a feature of his endless, undying rage.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Kralorela also has mastered the arts of "industrialized" necromancy. At least enough to row their galley fleets. Who, exactly, in the Dragon Emperor's employ is doing this I'm not sure if we're ever told, nor what kind of magic they employ to do it.

Anyway, I'd hazard a guess that "necromancy" probably is less of a specific discipline of sorcery and more of a catch-all/umbrella term that is contextually sensitive.

[MOB]

5 hours ago, Nevermet said:

Now THATs fun.  I have a few things I'm now wondering about

First, are the children she mentions children that have already been born by 1621 (the time of the Guide to Glorantha)?  If so, I assume that would be Saranko, the High Priest of Invisible Orlanth, and/or Alehandro of the Brass Arm, Satrap of Spol. 

Her children are described in The Guide to Glorantha, and are all adults (all born long before 1621). 

5 hours ago, Nevermet said:

If not, the we're talking about new children.  Either way is interesting.

Even though Nick's story makes clear Yolanela is of somewhat advanced years, she definitely wants another child. My companion story to Nick's, The Son of Light Awakens, discusses that further (it is all about the reason why the envoy in Nick's story is sent with the message from Glamor he gives). Sadly, that tale seems to be missing from the archive where my old website is now housed.

5 hours ago, Nevermet said:

Second, who in the North?

Sheng Seleris.

[Sir_Godspeed]

25 minutes ago, MOB said:

Sheng Seleris.

O.o

[Nevermet]

3 hours ago, MOB said:

Her children are described in The Guide to Glorantha, and are all adults (all born long before 1621). 

Even though Nick's story makes clear Yolanela is of somewhat advanced years, she definitely wants another child. My companion story to Nick's, The Son of Light Awakens, discusses that further (it is all about the reason why the envoy in Nick's story is sent with the message from Glamor he gives). Sadly, that tale seems to be missing from the archive where my old website is now housed.

Sheng Seleris.

I know that Argrath brings Sheng Seleris back, but I'm confused how the geography means he's from the North, rather than, say, the East.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Nevermet

[MOB]

2 hours ago, Nevermet said:

I know that Argrath brings Sheng Seleris back, but I'm confused how the geography means he's from the North, rather than, say, the East.

Pent is to the North (okay, the North-East, for Yolanela) and that's where she will find Sheng when he returns.

BTW, I don't think Y necessarily knows who the "husband" she'll find up there will be, only that it whoever it is will be bad for her enemies.

Edited September 6, 2019 by MOB

[davecake]

On 9/6/2019 at 2:27 AM, Nevermet said:

In either case, reading the Entekosiad, I would argue that there is a case to be made for pre-dawn sorcery in Wendaria / Pelanda from several sources:

Oh, absolutely. If YarGan was not sorcerous (and I think he was at least originally Waertagi), he was certainly an ally of sorcerers (the Logicians who are probably Kachasti). Sorcerer have been in Pelanda since at least then. I think the Darkness sorcery tradition probably predates Syranthir, and is actually pre-Dawn. And like most such sorcery, the Magi disapprove of it and won't go near it themselves (but allow Spolite viziers to use it). 

 

On 9/6/2019 at 3:00 AM, Nevermet said:

I'm tempted to equate Xentha with KataMoripi the Dead Sky, but I suspect that won't work in the end.

I agree that it won't work. KaraMoripi is a dark planet, not the Sky as a whole. Dead Entekos. 

On 9/6/2019 at 3:00 AM, Nevermet said:

Regarding Netta/Xentha and Subere, I see the Spolites as directly connected to Velortina of Hagu, and as such, I view Spolitism as having a pretty maleable list of gods at any given point in time, even more than others.  So, after its established that Spolitism is about darkness and the underworld, they probably grabbed any divinity they could that fit that mission, and started editing out gods that didn't fit well. 

Yes, Netta and Gorgorma and Subere were part of the historical Spolite Empire and modern Spolite practice, but this may not be directly connected to the pre-Time myths, it is pretty malleable . The core of Spolite philosophy is around Velortina and Gerra, but that isn't really the sort of stuff you build an Empire on. 

Annara Gor and Ty Kora Tek are more or less just the Pelorian and Theyalan names for the same goddess. The God Learners would definitely treat them as the same deity. Azerlo is to Annara Gor is to Ty Kora Tek as ViSaruDaran is to Turos is to Lodril (or, I guess, Vekarthan is you wish to be nitpicky). 

Xiola Umbar - I do find the name and Umbarism to be very interesting, but it is literally the only bit of evidence I can find that Xiola Umbar enjoys significant worship from anyone but trolls. And the Umbarism name could be explained other ways, such as Umbar being a title of the deity Xiola or something 

On 9/6/2019 at 3:11 AM, Nevermet said:

I also agree with Davidcake that Black Sun Worship seems to have developed separately.  That said, I do find some things intriguing.  Specifically, the idea that human sacrifice is necessary to maintain reality.  I read the entry in the Guide about the Black Sun, but I don't know enough to really say more than this.

Yes, I think the necessity of human sacrifice is a very primal thing, though, a lot of religions in Glorantha believe in it, it isn't necessarily a link. 

The central rite of the Black Sun is cooking up a big meat stew full of organs and blood, and creating an illusionary (but permanent until dispelled) monster from it. It does't have to involve the death of sentients, but the results are more useful (the monster is intelligent) is you do. 

Edited September 9, 2019 by davecake
Typo

[davecake]

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Anyway, I'd hazard a guess that "necromancy" probably is less of a specific discipline of sorcery and more of a catch-all/umbrella term that is contextually sensitive.

I use it as a term for Death rune sorcery, I guess. But of course sorcery has a very flexible approach to what that means - for a sorcerer mastering a rune means both empowering and removing. It makes sense that for sorcerers, dealing with Death implies dealing with Undeath. And perhaps even some forms of healing. 

[Grievous]

6 hours ago, MOB said:

My companion story to Nick's, The Son of Light Awakens, discusses that further (it is all about the reason why the envoy in Nick's story is sent with the message from Glamor he gives).

The link to Son of Light Awakens is broken, btw. 😕

And ah, that's exactly what you said in your post - sorry for this superfluous note!

Edited September 6, 2019 by Grievous

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Xiola Umbar - I do find the name and Umbarism to be very interesting, but it is literally the only bit of evidence I can find that Xiola Umbar enjoys significant worship from anyone but trolls. And the Umbarism name could be explained other ways, such as Umbar being a title of the deity Xiola or something

IMO this is really another case of a classical language adjective gone weird. Umbra is Latin for shadow or dark. XU uses that in a vowel-consonant position exchange. There is an Anglicized form, Umber, for the dark brown pigment used by painters. The Indo-European cognates interestingly include "rot, rotten" as meanings - so the term covers lots of what we love about Darkness.

And "Umbraism" is hard to pronounce, while "Umbarism" is fairly easy.

The Greek term for dark, "skotos", is cognate of Germanic "shadow" or "shade" (German  Schatten) and sounds too similar to northern Britain...

 

ZZ and XU aren't exactly troll deities. Like AA and Xentha they are worshiped by the uz, but they aren't among their ancestors, unlike most of their deities. (Aranea, Gorakiki and related beast deities are yet another group of semi-related darkness spirits/deities in the troll pantheon.

Finding ZZ elsewhere is easy - the Dara Happans have several cognates of his, lords of their third and fourth hells, and of Alkoth.

XU is a lot harder to find, and to dissociate from Malia before her part in the Unholy Trio. She is associated with pain, and overcoming that. Gerra's martyrium resonates with this, but doesn't suggest any identity.

 

Pelorian Umbarism IMO is referring to the Shadow, the blind spot of the Bright Ones, their unknowable. There is a good possibility that Umbarists never achieved any insights into that unknowable, either, other than faith that it held the answers to the failures of the deities of Light. There seems to be some belief in rebirth from Darkness, but that is shared with the Solar and the Lunar religions and of course with the Theyalans.