Cult of the Bloody Tusk - Initiation

[Ian Absentia]

Following on from the Peaceful Cut discussion elsewhere, I stumbled into the description of the Bloody Cut skill in the entry for Tusk Riders in the Gloranthan Bestiary, which in turn led me to the description of initiation into the Cult of the Bloody Tusk.  In particular, for non-Tusk Riders, the initiation rite involves wrangling a Tusker with one's bare hands.  Acknowledging that this "initiation rite" amounts to a characteristically cruel joke at the expense of the petitioner, the Tusk Riders sometimes "offer" the rite to their captives, presumably with predictably bloody results.

But what happens if the petitioner actually succeeds in subduing the Tusker?

My thoughts:

1. For a non-captive petitioner, the initiation will be technically honored, but an incessant string of personal challenges will continue until the non-Tusk Rider succeeds in subduing the tribe as well as the swine.
2. For a captive sacrifice, the Tusk Riders never promised acceptance into the tribe, but would keep them on as a slave instead.
3. Riffing off No.2 above, the Tusk Riders never promised that initiation into the cult would provide protection against summary execution.  Maybe they give you a head start before chasing you down.*

As Glorantha's own orcs, I decline to accept the notion that they're looking for converts to the cause.  The results of initiation for outsiders is going to be consistently nasty and unwelcoming.

!i!

(*Don't worry!  Tuskers -- and wild boar -- only have DEX=1d6 in Glorantha.  Roll to dodge!)

Edited September 30, 2019 by Ian Absentia

[Qizilbashwoman]

I know the Tuskers are savage, but I think they would accept the bloody offering of a successful Bloody Cut. That's the entire purpose of their lifestyle. They might well release someone who managed such a feat!

[Ian Absentia]

39 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I know the Tuskers are savage, but I think they would accept the bloody offering of a successful Bloody Cut. That's the entire purpose of their lifestyle. 

Too true.  I imagine they'd appreciate the effects of the Stockholm Syndrome on an involuntary convert, too.  Also, perhaps there might be a form of protection against killing a new initiate -- voluntary or otherwise -- to the Cult of the Bloody Tusk.  Spirit(s) of Reprisal.  As long as the ritual of Tusker-wrangling isn't staged as a sham, the SoR of any or all of the three different spiritual entities composing the cult "board of deities" may bestow some grace and protection on the newby, and the Tusk Riders would be aware of it.

!i!

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

but an incessant string of personal challenges will continue until the non-Tusk Rider succeeds in subduing the tribe as well as the swine.

That's standard for any normal Tusk Rider who wants to rise in power!

2 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

The results of initiation for outsiders is going to be consistently nasty and unwelcoming.

MGF, if you win that battle and want to become a Tusk Rider, I think you've proved it.  And likely you now have your own Tusker to help you solidify that claim!

[Ian Absentia]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

And likely you now have your own Tusker to help you solidify that claim!

You know, I discounted the fact that the successful petitioner would have at least two new allies on their side: Gouger, the god of Tuskers, who presumably approved of subduing one of its own; and the subdued Tusker itself!  Whether or not the Tusk Riders themselves like the survivor of the rite, they'd have to extend them at least grudging respect.

So, is initiation to the Cult of the Bloody Tusk de facto initiation to a tribe of Tusk Riders?  I mean, no one else bends a knee to the Bloody Tusk, do they?

!i!

Edited October 1, 2019 by Ian Absentia
Punctuation!

[jajagappa]

10 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

So, is initiation to the Cult of the Bloody Tusk de facto initiation to a tribe of Tusk Riders?  I mean, no one else bends a knee to the Bloody Tusk, do they?

I'd certainly expect so! If you've gone to the trouble of initiating, and Gouger has accepted you, who are the rest to argue? (Well, they all might, but why else did you want to join?)

[Ian Absentia]

50 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

(Well, they all might, but why else did you want to join?)

I was thinking more along the lines of the involuntary candidates who're "volunteered" for the initiation rite, and who, maybe, just maybe, survive the ordeal whether they wanted to join up or not.  I guess, ultimately, Gouger wouldn't have let you live if you didn't have being a Tusk Rider somewhere deep in your heart.

!i!

[PhilHibbs]

7 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Whether or not the Tusk Riders themselves like the survivor of the rite, they'd have to extend them at least grudging respect.

There's an implication there that Tusk Rider society is bonded by affection ahead of grudging respect. I'm sure it was unintended.

Edited October 1, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Qizilbashwoman]

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

There's an implication there that Tusk Rider society is bonded by affection ahead of grudging respect. I'm sure it was unintended.

you guys are mean to the Tusk Riders. you can have a truly abhorrent society focused on murdering to escape censure and even prove your true worth to your weird hybrid Darkness and angry Earth punishment spirit triad and still form social bonds.

they certainly eat much fewer of their own children than trolls do.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Ian Absentia]

52 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

you guys are mean to the Tusk Riders.

Well...yes.  Isn't everyone?

52 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

you can have a truly abhorrent society focused on murdering to escape censure and even prove your true worth to your weird hybrid Darkness and angry Earth punishment spirit triad and still form social bonds.

Point taken.  What I'm trying to grok, though, are the circumstances under which they'll extend those social bonds to outsiders -- rare in the extreme.  And, in particular, the even rarer event when some hapless sacrificial captive throws a wrench in their fun and actually bonds with the tusker intended to kill him.  With personal experience in certain fraternal organisations, I'm keenly aware that being initiated and "accepted" do not necessitate affection.  Sometimes your brothers (and sisters) are the worst dicks imaginable.

!i!

Edited October 1, 2019 by Ian Absentia

[Qizilbashwoman]

10 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

Well...yes.  Isn't everyone?

*sadly* nooooooOoOoooo *kicks a rock*

the depressing thing about the historical queer-coding of monsters is that queers tend to, uh, identify with the monsters. there's a reason gay ladies play, like, orcs in WoW and D&D a lot.

anyway.

in 13th Age: Glorantha, Tuskers and their Riders are bonded for life. Kill one and the other won't last long. I really dug that off-the-cuff riff, which was I believe explicitly stated to be a mechanical hack (13th Age is usually extremely explicit about its design). I really thought that brought a new level to the game of What Do Tuskers Do And Why? Suddenly we had a kind of Elfquest-y depth!

Edited October 1, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Ian Absentia]

Now you're making me feel bad.  Well, Power Up to the Uz, though, yeah?  And I'd argue that Orcs have been co-opted into the mainstream now, thanks in no small part to Sandy Petersen's Trollpak.  One of Us...  One of Us...

I just find it endlessly amusing that, several decades on, there are still very situation- and probably campaign-specific provisions for initiation into the most reviled society and cult in Glorantha.  Says a lot about our hobby!

!i!

[scott-martin]

5 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

Point taken.  What I'm trying to grok, though, are the circumstances under which they'll extend those social bonds to outsiders -- rare in the extreme.  And, in particular, the even rarer event when some hapless sacrificial captive throws a wrench in their fun and actually bonds with the tusker intended to kill him.  With personal experience in certain fraternal organisations, I'm keenly aware that being initiated and "accepted" do not necessitate affection.  Sometimes your brothers (and sisters) are the worst dicks imaginable.

Heh. The brothers will fight. Sisters more so.

IMG modern Aramites are what we would consider a mess without a lot of hierarchical structure. Today's king bully (call him Jack) treats everyone else like furniture because he can and does kick their ass if they defy him. Persistent defiance has three outcomes: you escape to found a new gang, he kills you, you find out how to kick his ass and break his spirit permanently, one way or another. Jack has his coterie who amuse him in some way or are just tough enough to make suppressing them inconvenient or unsatisfying in some way. These medial figures get to torment those below them until you get to actual Piggy on the bottom.

But Jack is superstitious enough to fear the Beast, their pig god in the depths of the stink. And the Beast talks to some people, often under duress, so you get a cycle where the most broken members occasionally scare the bullies at the top by presenting Words Of The Pig Who Must Be Obeyed. However this doesn't really make anyone happy.

Someone very brave, very motivated and extremely tough could probably reach out to the suppressed "Ralph side" of the cult by subjugating a tusker / piggy and being nice to it, all the while fending off the usual casual violence endemic to Aramite life. Heal the god, drive off the demon, the nation will follow. But unless that person is captured and has no choice in the matter, I don't see that kind of heroic effort being made.

[Ian Absentia]

5 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Someone very brave, very motivated and extremely tough could probably reach out to the suppressed "Ralph side" of the cult by subjugating a tusker / piggy and being nice to it, all the while fending off the usual casual violence endemic to Aramite life. Heal the god, drive off the demon, the nation will follow. But unless that person is captured and has no choice in the matter, I don't see that kind of heroic effort being made.

I see the new, private battle of the Hero Wars before me now.  Healing the Tusk Riders.

Right after I get done killing Argrath and changing the color of the Moon again.

!i!

[scott-martin]

Just now, Ian Absentia said:

Right after I get done killing Argrath and changing the color of the Moon again.

That's the thing. They're never a priority for anyone important so they just stay unrehabilitated. But if someone wanted to elfquest them out I bet it would be wonderful.

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

I see the new, private battle of the Hero Wars before me now.  Healing the Tusk Riders.

Right after I get done killing Argrath and changing the color of the Moon again.

A smart Hero would link the White Moon Rebellions and the healing of the Tuskers. Get the trolls involved (they like the moon, not the Lunars, and think the Tuskers are some sort of unstable TNT version of made-enlo) and repurpose the non-PolJoni and non-Lunar Praxians against your common foe. Steal Argrath's Eaglebrowns before he gets them on his side.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

they certainly eat much fewer of their own children than trolls do.

You're talking like eating your children is a bad thing. I don't get it.

[Qizilbashwoman]

51 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

You're talking like eating your children is a bad thing. I don't get it.

I know an Eurmali when I see one. Because they have their ass as their image. 😉

[Ian Absentia]

13 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

A smart Hero would link the White Moon Rebellions and the healing of the Tuskers. 

I've seen Princess Mononoke enough times to have faith that Gouger can be cleansed.  Not that it'd be easy.

And in the Dawn Age, the human Aramites worshiped Orlanth, so there's precedent in the Godtime for setting them back on the right track.  Not that the Tusk Riders necessarily need to be purged of their Uz-ness. And I like the White Moon connection.  A lot.

Just to be clear, a redeemed and cleansed tribe of Tusk Riders are not going to be a bunch of flower-sniffing penitents.  I imagine something more like Paul Atreides' Fremen.  Only on pigs instead of worms.  And they bring the White Moon.

As night passes into day,
as summer follows winter,
so shall the White Moon
follow the Scarlet.
The worst war of the world
can only be followed by
the best peace of the world.
The White Moon is the Moon of Peace,
For none can be warlike when
all weapons are broken.
The White Moon is the Moon of Calm,
For none are quieter than the dead.
The White Moon is the Moon of Beauty,
But who shall remain to admire her?

!i!

Edited October 2, 2019 by Ian Absentia

[Bill the barbarian]

On 10/1/2019 at 10:11 AM, PhilHibbs said:

You're talking like eating your children is a bad thing. I don't get it.

I know, eh?

[Austin]

While the topic's on Tusk Riders, quick question: why are they considered an "Elder Race" in the Glorantha Bestiary? Their origin is in Second Age EWF shenanigans, yes? Is it just an organizational convenience—no where else obvious to put them, since they're sentient and non-Chaos—or is there some further puzzle piece I'm missing?

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Crel said:

While the topic's on Tusk Riders, quick question: why are they considered an "Elder Race" in the Glorantha Bestiary? Their origin is in Second Age EWF shenanigans, yes? Is it just an organizational convenience—no where else obvious to put them, since they're sentient and non-Chaos—or is there some further puzzle piece I'm missing?

"Elder Race" is a misnomer for "not-human sapient species", with a humanoid body plan an optional condition. Their lack of persecution by dragons after the Dragonkill War has led to the assumption that the (remaining) Aramites aren't human any more.

We don't know whether there were Aramite humans remaining up to the Dragonkill War. Varankol the Mangler was the Great Living Hero of the Aramites, and in all likelihood the prototype tusked Tusk Rider. Whether uz or dehori parenthood or adoption played any role in this is unclear. Fact is that the Aramites at the Dawn were human in shape and biology, although already riding tusker boars and worshiping the Cult of the Bloody Tusk with the Darkness demon Aram had used to slay Gouger.

Killing the God Beast Gouger did nothing to alienate Aram from Kero Fin (or the avatar of hers, Sorana Tor) at the Dawn, and Aram was considered civilized and peaceful enough to represent the humans on the Unity Council.

The Aramite humans entered the Second Age without any recent population reversals. It is unclear whether they participated in the Battle of Night and Day and what their relationship to the Bright Empire may have been.

Cross-breeding efforts are known from the magical society that enabled the birth of Pavis from an aldryami mother (it doesn't say anywhere which type of aldryami). Pavis was born around 800 ST. A dryad offering sexual service in Karse is documented for about 780 ST.  Dragon Pass was rife with transformative magics - turning both crops and herds into draconic creatures. Some of these energies leaked into the Stitched Zoo project which re-created the Beastfolk from humans and other creatures.

I think there is a significant likelihood that Varankol and his followers had the assistance of the Remakers of Remakerela in adopting their porcine appearance - a magical implantation of tusker boar tusks and a special blessing of the bound Darkness demon are a possible route from human tusker boar riders to tusked Tusk Riders without any Kyger Litor ancestry (unless the Darkness demon bound by Aram was an emanation of the Hellmother, which would raise other questions).

 

That half-troll thingy... this comes from the God Learner systematic presentation of troll skulls in Troll Pak, and quite likely is a theory that originated in Lylket in the Second Age. It was repeated in the Borderlands encounter page without that in-world document context, though.

The Tusk Riders are definitely not listed as a product of an attempt to undo the Curse of Kin, and that's the only agenda uz heroquesters have had since the Curse struck when it comes to transformative procreation. That leaves a rather short time window for troll ancestry to enter the Aramite population between the Dawn and the Battle of Night and Day. (Not by way of Aram, though - he would have brought in the divine ancestry provided by Kero Fin/Sorana Tor, as wearer of Kero Fin's Necklace.)

We know that the Second Council did tamper with breeding projects, although we know few details. Seri-phy-Ranor is a Pavis-like mixed breed from the Second Council era, and the leg-less wyrms are blamed on (failed) Second Council attempts to open paths to dragonhood. After Argentium Thri'ile, the need for an alternative cavalry for the wars in Peloria had lessened significantly, and so would have troll willingness to contribute to a perversion like the making of Tusk Riders.

This doesn't necessarily extend to cave trolls, but in that case, I would expect some residual Chaos taint in their descendants. (Come to think of this, Vamargic Eye-Necklace quite likely had such a chaotic taint, given his parentage, even if his birth as Great Troll may have canceled the regeneration ability. But that's a Second Age experiment, again, and in Kitori-controlled forests outside of the EWF.)

[Ian Absentia]

Hey, @Joerg, can you provide me with a few citations for the Tusk Rider history you mention above?  I've been combing through my (admittedly conventional) Gloranthan/RQ sources and finding precious little about them.  The "half-troll" mislead is prominent among them.  I'm guessing that I need to track down the legend of Aram for most of it.

Also, to the crowd, any thoughts on alternative pig-management gods?  If you're going to ouster a cruel, pig-subjugating demon, you'll need to bring a sound alternative to the table.

!i!

Edited October 3, 2019 by Ian Absentia

[Ian Absentia]

[Duplicate post.  Please ignore.]

Edited October 3, 2019 by Ian Absentia
Duplicate post

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Hey, @Joerg, can you provide me with a few citations for the Tusk Rider history you mention above?  I've been combing through my (admittedly conventional) Gloranthan/RQ sources and finding precious little about them.  The "half-troll" mislead is prominent among them.  I'm guessing that I need to track down the legend of Aram for most of it.

Hmm. I mostly pulled this out of memory.

The first description of the Tusk Riders is in the White Bear and Red Moon / Dragon Pass boardgame. Little about their history. The "history of Dragon Pass" section there conflated the Dawn Council and the EWF with its Third Council into one continuous history.

Aram Soul of Udram as representative of the Unity Council, bearer of the Necklace of Kero Fin: Sourcebook p.130. Also Aram ya Udram, or Yu-Adariam in some of the oldest texts about him.

Should also be in Dorastor, Land of Doom, and possibly mentioned in the Broken Council Guidebook.

The Dawn Survival Sites list (Guide p.710, History of the Heortling Peoples) mentions Aram, but not his role in the council.

There is also the description of the Ivory Plinth (with a William Church image) in an early Wyrm's Footprints, and (at least the picture and the poem) reprinted in the Guide p.185

Half Trolls: the skull diagram and explanatory texts in Troll Pak (both 2nd and 3rd edition)

Half Trolls, and distribution all the way to Ralios: Borderlands Encounters.

Afterwards, the Half Troll description was repeated in King of Sartar (CHDP: Inhuman Occupation, and IIRC also in Uz Lore, though in less detail). Basically, this seems to be entrenched as a firm belief by their neighbors, and most descendants of those neighbors who witnessed their transformation perished along with the EWF to the Pelorian invaders of 1042 and 1120 (and, in a smaller number, to the Dragonkill).

Varankol the Mangler: History of the Heortling Peoples (for the Machine Wars) (and the Freeform character material for "Between the Dragon and the Blue Sea", written by among others by Jeff Richard, played by a friend of mine in the Tentacles run that saw me as Vamargic)

 

3 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Also, to the crowd, any thoughts on alternative pig-management gods?  If you're going to ouster a cruel, pig-subjugating demon, you'll need to bring a sound alternative to the table.

Aram the Ancestor, and the fierce black demon he used is the bridle and/or whip with which he overcame Gouger.

And I think I need to set this right: Gouger was an avenging demon sent by the Earth Goddess against impious or blasphemous (former) worshippers of hers. Aram killed it with the aid of the Darkness demon after Gouger had destroyed two cities (indicating that this rampage started even before Ernalda went to sleep, and probably was stopped shortly after she had gone). Gouger is the holy Earth avenger (Babeester wasn't born yet). Aram turned against the divine punishment sent by his own goddess, the fierce black demon being his weapon against the God Pig.

There is no similarity between Gouger on his rampage and the worm-ridden Chaos-plagued boar spirit of Mononoke. Redeye of Pig Hollow is a minuscule version of Gouger. Gouger's rage was righteous and non-chaotic (though utterly destructive), an expression of Earth enraged.