The canon cult

[Bill the barbarian]

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Amber Road I was talking about is the Copper Age or older route that provided amber from the cold north to places like Egypt. Probably the luxury good that gave the Myceneans something the Minoans and those beyond would desire. The Unetice folk of Nebra disk fame were intermediaries on this route, as were the Carpathian/Danubian folk who managed to maintain the continental Bronze trade when the Mediterranean and the Fertile Crescent underwent a total close-down of their trade routes.

Tant pis, as my Quebecois buds say (too bad)... As interesting as I find the the great trade routes of the green marble (just see me gushing up above about the Silk Road) I was hoping these were gems of Gloranthan goodness you were taking about...

 

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The salt trade is woefully under-developed in Glorantha, and drowned aldryami (to produce amber) are ubiquitious - all of the dry side of the cube was once covered by sprawling greenery, and two thirds of that are now submerged.

Ahh, there you go... so when can you look forward to seeing you open this as topics It sounds like a great one to me!

 

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The wonderful clichéed imagery of the Silk Road across the Steppes does of course combine Fantasy China with Fantasy Persia... Cultural appropriation and all that.

For the first reaction I have to say; see my first comment in this post, but still... 
Fantastic stuff indeed and maybe as a guilty pleasure I will have to travel to far Samarkand via the silk road with the accompaniment of the Polos for companionship and conversation under foreign stars that look so familiar and different... dare I say alien... Mayhap’s we might stumble across a map in a bazaar that leads to...

 

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Imagine Germany without Autobahn.

 

Hee hee, next you'll ask me to imagine the autobahn without Kraftwerk (can NOT be done!)

 

32 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Go, hit tights? That's sexual harrassment, man.

 

sorry dood... (hangs head)

18 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Bzzt. You are wrong. Hittite is a cousin to the entire rest of the Indo-European languages; technically, this stage is called Indo-Hittite. One branch is Hittite and its closely-related languages (like Luvian), notable for being the language of Troy, the other branch Indo-European. It is no closer to Armenian or the Iranian languages than it is to English.

Linguistically perhaps but otherwise it seems pretty good. It's what I base my using the Anatolia lands of this time as a sort of template... To tell you the truth the accuracy does not matter a lot... I like to have an idea I can use to describe the reality my table creates together. If we’re happy... It could be woise.

On the other hand, is that a hit @Joerg, Did Qizilbashwoman tag ya? I have mentioned counting coup on Joerg is a deal...

Cheers all

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Qizilbashwoman]

7 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Linguistically perhaps but otherwise it seems pretty good. It's what I base my using the Anatolia lands of this time as a sort of template... To tell you the truth the accuracy does not matter a lot... I like to have an idea I can use to describe the reality my table creates together. If we’re happy... It could be woise.

On the other hand, is that a hit @Joerg, Did Qizilbashwoman tag ya? I have mentioned counting coup on Joerg is a deal...

Cheers all

Oh I absolutely think of the Armenians when I think of the Orlanthi, I've posted PHOTOS. I've got BOOKS. There's more than a little crossover. Hell, the Muslim Armenians (who incidentally were passed over during the Genocide) are more than a little like the Lunarised Orlanthi, it's great gristle for inspiration

I live in a largely Armenian neighborhood. Somehow, in Boston, they have managed to grow fruiting fig trees in this climate. The real question is: did they import and maintain the population of the fig wasps needed to pollinate the trees? Because these figs are not being hand-pollinated; they are now largely unattended and were bending over with ripe figs three weeks ago.

[Qizilbashwoman]

16 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Dragon Pass inhabitants are violent, use runes, aren't particularly literate, and worship storm gods

everyone uses runes, though. the whole world runs on runes. and bronze age anywhere is mostly illiterate and worshipping storm gods, from Canaan to China

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The real question is: did they import and maintain the population of the fig wasps needed to pollinate the trees? Because these figs are not being hand-pollinated; they are now largely unattended and were bending over with ripe figs three weeks ago.

There may be a local native that acts equivalent.

Figs naturalize out here in California, too.

 

[g33k]

11 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

... So how’s. about something canonical that is pissing ya off ...

Vegetarian Morokanth.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, g33k said:

Vegetarian Morokanth.

and again I run out of laugh clix... would a really authentic, tin plated, stanlee endorsed no prize do? I’ll even throw in an excelsior, or two, if it would sweeten the deal.

[Jeff]

51 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

everyone uses runes, though. the whole world runs on runes. and bronze age anywhere is mostly illiterate and worshipping storm gods, from Canaan to China

That's from the inspiration for the Gods Wall - which just happens to be at the Pergamonmuseum here in Berlin. Next to "Orlanth" on this wall is "Ernalda". Note the Mastery-Rune lightning or thunderbolt (which incidentally is also the vajra). 

As an aside, our biggest influence on the look of the Orlanthi tattoos is actually Thracian, although the Berbers, Yazidi, and Daghestani are also all great references.

I find nearly nothing about Dragon Pass to be like Scandinavia, the British Isles, or Northern Europe (and I live in Berlin), but if you go a bit south - to Switzerland, the Balkans, or the Caucasus, the parallels start to abound. Throw in a dash of Western US and it works like a charm. 

As for how many religions figured a major storm god with a prominent trickster - I'd pick most religions from South Asia to the Pillars of Heracles.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

I find nearly nothing about Dragon Pass to be like Scandinavia, the British Isles, or Northern Europe (and I live in Berlin), but if you go a bit south - to Switzerland, the Balkans, or the Caucasus, the parallels start to abound. Throw in a dash of Western US and it works like a charm. 

 

Speaking of from the horse’s mouth...

I am all out of "Thanx Clix", so I will have to do this the old fashion way...
Thanks for the great behind-the-scenes insight on canon from the designer of our game.

Cheers

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

That's from the inspiration for the Gods Wall - which just happens to be at the Pergamonmuseum here in Berlin. Next to "Orlanth" on this wall is "Ernalda". Note the Mastery-Rune lightning or thunderbolt (which incidentally is also the vajra). 

As an aside, our biggest influence on the look of the Orlanthi tattoos is actually Thracian, although the Berbers, Yazidi, and Daghestani are also all great references.

I find nearly nothing about Dragon Pass to be like Scandinavia, the British Isles, or Northern Europe (and I live in Berlin), but if you go a bit south - to Switzerland, the Balkans, or the Caucasus, the parallels start to abound. Throw in a dash of Western US and it works like a charm. 

As for how many religions figured a major storm god with a prominent trickster - I'd pick most religions from South Asia to the Pillars of Heracles.

And here's "Orlanth" AND "Ernalda" from that same Gods Wall:

 

[Joerg]

The often toted "nordic" theme is a case of a ready set of hammers to screw in this lightbulb...

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Dragon Pass inhabitants are violent, use runes, aren't particularly literate, and worship storm gods with a prominent Trickster. 

The Alt Right are violent, use runes (e.g. Beast), aren't particularly literate, and worship Stormy Daniels with a prominent Trickster...

Some have orange skin.

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

And paint themselves blue, which is commonly associated with Western European if not Nordic. 

Picts or it didn't happen?

That blue pigment cabbage apparently invaded from Anatolia alongside agriculture, according to the German language Wikipedia. (English Wikipedia starts with woad in Britain... I begin to see the cultural problem.)

Woad seems to act as an astringent, reducing the bleeding from minor cuts. Nordic people don't seem to have painted themselves with that stuff. The few weeks of summer are too short to develop a culture of wearing body paint, and the mosquitoes quell any urge to go sky-clad quickly.

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

And Vingans sure seemed a lot like Shield Maidens but apparently everything I thought about Vinga is wrong.  Hoping not to be a "victim of the canon cult" much longer.  🙂

Funny, that - the myths about shield maidens appear to be as truthful as the reports on the amazons on the Black Sea. Nordic society appears to have had no taboo against females taking up arms, but there are about as many woman warriors in the Sagas as there are warrior princesses in Harem Nights or Mulan.

It is funny, too, that the condemned source of patriarchalism - the Pontic Steppe horse riders - had warrior princess burials. With the tribal tats that Sartarites feature.

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

That said, I'm fine with Mycenaean / Hittite / early Persian etc. influences, which also fit the background. 

Funnily, I froth from my lips about the "land-locked Myceneans" - that's damn close to land-locked Minoans or land-locked Polynesians.

The Hittites don't evoke much in terms of "this is their signature look" - mostly nude guys with shields, or some non-descript partial armor. Three-man chariot teams, with driver, tank (shield-holder) and (presumably noble) missileer. Altogether a Dara Happan vibe for me.

Transhumant herding and warrior farmers? I don't quite see that, although Anatolia has the topography for that. Cattle raids?

 

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Our group tends to reserve the Indian "lots of gods and goddesses who are subtle and sometimes confusing aspects of each other" for the Lunars.

So they only have the five Lightbringer cults, Humakt, and Ernalda? Maybe Yinkin and Yelmalio on the side?

Already Odayla gets blurry at the borders...

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Transhumant herding and warrior farmers? I don't quite see that, although Anatolia has the topography for that. Cattle raids?

Hittites & friends did that, as did the later Armenians, who were part of the Urartian state. Urartu practiced ethnic relocation like the Ottomans did, so that's how the Armenians ended up in the Armenian parts of Anatolia. And boy did they love their cattle-raiding and feuding. Their pre-Christian mythology was so soaked in Mesopotamian, then Persian, then Christian mythology it is hard to detangle, and yet it remains a vibrant part of traditional yearly culture. My name is an ancient pagan Persian name still in use in Iran and other Persian-speaking countries but it's equally an ancient common name in Armenian, Anahit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_mythology

Also, remember, speakers of one of the languages related to Hittite are the actual Trojans of history.

[Qizilbashwoman]

9 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

@Jeff I know that your Sartar looks like Switzerland comments concern topology and climate, not culture and religion.  But it really blurs the "Don't think of Sartarites as Celts or Vikings" message.  🙂

 

Sartar looks like ARMENIA

[Qizilbashwoman]

Look there's even a Babeester Gori

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Sartar looks like ARMENIA

 

 

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

@Jeff I know that your Sartar looks like Switzerland comments concern topology and climate, not culture and religion.  But it really blurs the "Don't think of Sartarites as Celts or Vikings" message.  🙂

 

This is quite an important comment I am about to make my good sir Rodney. Any comment you see here including ones you make and hell, that everyone else here makes (sorry Jeff, you too) is opinion. No one here has any right to make you play another way than you wish. The folk that play with you should be the only ones who influence the game. Really, all that is happening here is a sharing of opinions and options on ways to enjoy these great games. So if all the opinions might be equally good than I can assume that all opinions may be equally  bad, I mean after all Qizilbashwoman is wrong in your opinion (It is so not Armenia it is closer to (insert chosen destination)) Make it so,  set phasers on ignore those things that do not appeal and move on. Mind you if she gets a detail right, steal that puppy, she will never know!

Hey, (psst) if yer polite about it you can even say the games suck and get away with it. If you do it intelligently or even creatively more people will pay attention but them’s tha breaks. And that’s canon!

Cheers

Edited November 28, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

And that’s canon!

Your Glorantha Will Vary (YGWV) is canon! It's literally in the books.

[Bill the barbarian]

Hark, the canon’s roar!

[Qizilbashwoman]

6 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Hark, the canon’s roar!

and that's why I say ELMAL IS A SUBCULT OF KARGZANT, NOT YELMALIO, YOU BASTARDS!

(disclaimer: the "you bastards" is part of a meme-quote and is not meant to disparage the hard-working members of Chaosium & al., in all seriousness. I love you guys.)

[Bill the barbarian]

5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Look there's even a Babeester Gori

 

I’m sorry I don’t recognize that style of axe... <squinting> Hey hold on, are you sure that is canonical. Are ya trying to pull a fast one?

Edited November 28, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Qizilbashwoman]

10 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I’m sorry I don’t recognize tha style of axe... <squinting> Hey hold on, are you sure tha is canonical. Are ya trying to pull fast one?

listen this ain't the bronze age no more, now gramma babeester got a gat

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

listen this ain't the bronze age no more, now gramma babeester got a gat

So let me get this straight, you say the cannon’s canon, right?

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 minute ago, Bill the barbarian said:

So let me get this straight, you say the cannon’s canon, right?

lmao

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

and that's why I say ELMAL IS A SUBCULT OF KARGZANT, NOT YELMALIO, YOU BASTARDS!

(disclaimer: the "you bastards" is part of a meme-quote and is not meant to disparage the hard-working members of Chaosium & al., in all seriousness. I love you guys.)

They're all little suns in their own way.

The deities described as being variants even match up to the old ST and SKoH subcults of Elmal! (Antirius (and thus Yelm) to Anatyr, Kargzant to Beren/Hyalor, Elmal to Hearthguard, which just leaves the Yelmalio one separate. And maybe the Elven Halamalao one could be linked to Elmalhara.)

I could also see other Little Sun gods functioning similarly.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

And here's "Orlanth" AND "Ernalda" from that same Gods Wall:

 

These are the Storm god (Hurrian Tesub, Luvian Tarhunzas "Conqueror", where h = german ch and z is ts) and his spouse is the Hurrian Mother deity Hepat (h = german ch), identified with the Hittite Sun goddess of Arinna.

[Jeff]

10 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

These are the Storm god (Hurrian Tesub, Luvian Tarhunzas "Conqueror", where h = german ch and z is ts) and his spouse is the Hurrian Mother deity Hepat (h = german ch), identified with the Hittite Sun goddess of Arinna.

Bah. Obviously that's Orlanth and Ernalda. We found the Aetheric Brothers in the same collection. Humakt was also there, armed with two swords.

[Ian Absentia]

On 11/27/2019 at 11:52 PM, Jeff said:

I find nearly nothing about Dragon Pass to be like Scandinavia, the British Isles, or Northern Europe (and I live in Berlin), but if you go a bit south - to Switzerland, the Balkans, or the Caucasus, the parallels start to abound. Throw in a dash of Western US and it works like a charm. 

[emphasis mine]

So, you mean indigenous peoples of the Western US (Hokan, Athapaskan, Salish, etc.), or, like, rednecks, hillbillies, and displaced Okies?

!i!