Kargzant cult progression

[JDM]

22 minutes ago, davecake said:

And hey, isn't it a fascinating coincidence that:

• Sheng Seleris was a 'failed' mystic as well as a great Solar magician
• his lead warriors were said to follow a strict nomad lifestyle and get great magic from it
• Kargzant grants gifts and geases as one his greatest sources of magic, requiring strict adherence
• a mystic (eg Illuminate) may get many gifts, requiring him to follow a strict set of geases to obtain them, but break them with relative impunity if it becomes necessary

A 'cheap and cheezy' way to create a powerful follower of the Sheng Seleris path is to have a Kargzant cultist who has enough gifts that they have very high skills including mastery of all cult weapons as a minimum, attributes at species maximum,  permanently magically enhanced sight, and a bunch of other magical abilities. Though that is just the beginning - the most powerful have other tricks up their sleeve, including access to both Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant magic, and more (Kralori magic, for example). 

Interesting, although I don't think Kargzant has gifts and geases

[davecake]

2 minutes ago, JDM said:

Interesting, although I don't think Kargzant has gifts and geases

Allow me to point you to directly upthread, where Jeff says they do. I think that they probably differ from the Yelmalio standard gifts and geases in minor detail, but probably only minor. 

23 hours ago, Jeff said:

The Kargzant cult resembles Yelmalio’s cult in most respects (including spells, gifts, and geases)

[JDM]

8 minutes ago, davecake said:

Allow me to point you to directly upthread, where Jeff says they do. I think that they probably differ from the Yelmalio standard gifts and geases in minor detail, but probably only minor. 

 Thank you, I overlooked that.

I was basing my opinion on Jeff's old Many Suns post - "As with Elmal, Kargzant does not have gifts and geases."

 

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, JDM said:

For the Solar Tribes:

 

Kargzant does not have the age/role cult progression of Yelm (Yu-Kargzant). It is a Lightfore cult. Kargzant has the culture hero role equivalent to Waha in Prax: he protected his people in the Darkness and set out their way of life. The vast majority of Solar Tribe Pent males initiate to Kargzant.

Waha has a similar "minimal age/pedigree requirement for cult advancement" rule as Yu-Kargzant or Kargzant.

If the tribe (or IMO rather clan) worships Yu-Kargzant anyway, there is little point for Kargzant to be patron of that age structure. This structure doesn't receive any sacrifice or other such magical bonus.

The main question to me is whether that Yelm the Youth/Yelm the Rider status is an obligatory initiatory POW-sacrifice to the clan and/or tribal wyter (as I theorized about in the Dara Happan worship spin-off from the Vinga thread).

4 hours ago, JDM said:

Kargzant does not have the Fire rune and does not have Golden Bow shamans. But does have shamans who treat with Sprits of Light. (Any suggestions for characteristics and attributes of spirits of light would be gratefully received).

Take a look at Nomad Gods' Spirits of Light (and also Moon) for a start, then look at the resulting births from Hon-eel's contest with the Most Reverend Horse Mother in the Sourcebook. GRoY and Fortunate Succession mention Vettebbe as the unbridled portion of Kargzant.

 

The lack of the fire rune for priests of a Lightfore deity may be a tad over-stated if a Light Servant of Yelmalio can canonically (at least in RQ2/Classic) control small and medium salamanders. There may still be a taboo on fire-related spirit spells and a lack of other flame spells in the arsenal of divine magic, but having salamanders pretty much counts as having fire powers to me.

The Sunspear magic may come only through allied magic (Lightfore Antirius gave it to his prophet Avivath, while Lightfore Kargzant had no such thing to offer to the contemporary Jenarong "dynasty" emperors).

Kargzant does have Hyalor and Kushile as allied cults (effectively subcults). Shamans do not need to follow the Golden Bow even in Solar traditions.

 

4 hours ago, JDM said:

Eiritha is the protectress of the cattle and sheep herds. Horses are valued in Solar Tribes but not in the way they are by the Pure Horse People. The vast majority of Solar Tribe Pent females initiate to Eiritha.

Don't forget the goats. Goats were the first herd animals picked up by the Starlight Wanderers who became one of the charioteer horse warlord groups of Gray and Dawn Age Dara Happa. I was not even sure that the Pentans herd sheep, but checking the Guide p. 363 confirms them, as it confirms the herding of reindeer. That's four types of meat and dairy animals for Eiritha to take care of, in addition to the horse as special meat and dairy animal outside of Eiritha's responsibility.

 

4 hours ago, JDM said:

So Kargzant and Eiritha in Pent are rough equivalents of Waha and Eiritha in Prax.

Within the Solar Tribes there are families or clans of Pure Horse People who worship Yelm and Dendara. I had previously thought of Hyalor and Hippoi as independent cults, but of course it makes much more sense that they are worshipped as part of Yelm and Dendara. This way the Pure Horse Tradition maintains within it, and jealously guards within it, the sources of its power.

Is Hippoi part of the Dendara cult?

Hyalor and Kuschile are allies with the status of subcults of both Yu- and just Kargzant.

Neither the FHQ nor the Most Reverend Horse Mother strike me as the typical wife role model for the horse tribes.

 

[JDM]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Waha has a similar "minimal age/pedigree requirement for cult advancement" rule as Yu-Kargzant or Kargzant.

If the tribe (or IMO rather clan) worships Yu-Kargzant anyway, there is little point for Kargzant to be patron of that age structure. This structure doesn't receive any sacrifice or other such magical bonus.

The main question to me is whether that Yelm the Youth/Yelm the Rider status is an obligatory initiatory POW-sacrifice to the clan and/or tribal wyter (as I theorized about in the Dara Happan worship spin-off from the Vinga thread).

Take a look at Nomad Gods' Spirits of Light (and also Moon) for a start, then look at the resulting births from Hon-eel's contest with the Most Reverend Horse Mother in the Sourcebook. GRoY and Fortunate Succession mention Vettebbe as the unbridled portion of Kargzant.

The lack of the fire rune for priests of a Lightfore deity may be a tad over-stated if a Light Servant of Yelmalio can canonically (at least in RQ2/Classic) control small and medium salamanders. There may still be a taboo on fire-related spirit spells and a lack of other flame spells in the arsenal of divine magic, but having salamanders pretty much counts as having fire powers to me.

The Sunspear magic may come only through allied magic (Lightfore Antirius gave it to his prophet Avivath, while Lightfore Kargzant had no such thing to offer to the contemporary Jenarong "dynasty" emperors).

Kargzant does have Hyalor and Kushile as allied cults (effectively subcults). Shamans do not need to follow the Golden Bow even in Solar traditions.

Don't forget the goats. Goats were the first herd animals picked up by the Starlight Wanderers who became one of the charioteer horse warlord groups of Gray and Dawn Age Dara Happa. I was not even sure that the Pentans herd sheep, but checking the Guide p. 363 confirms them, as it confirms the herding of reindeer. That's four types of meat and dairy animals for Eiritha to take care of, in addition to the horse as special meat and dairy animal outside of Eiritha's responsibility.

Is Hippoi part of the Dendara cult?

Hyalor and Kuschile are allies with the status of subcults of both Yu- and just Kargzant.

Neither the FHQ nor the Most Reverend Horse Mother strike me as the typical wife role model for the horse tribes.

 

I'm taking the view that the cult of Yelm/Yu-Kargzant is restricted to certain lineages in Pent. Only Pure Horse clans can worship Yu-Kargzant. You have to be born into it. They form a sort of elite, controlling access to Dendara, Hyalor and Hippoi cults. I'm seeing Kargzant as a poor relation to Yu-Kargzant. Like Yelm and Lodril in Peloria. The Hoi Polloi in Pent are restricted to Kargzant. 

I've seen Nomad Gods, thanks. I was looking for suggestions any new light spirits, star spirits, etc.

Fire elementals do not seem to be available to Yelmalio in RQG. I'm thinking there is a Kargzant at the Hill of Gold myth equivalent, Kargzant defeated and loses Fire. 

I certainly haven't forgotten the goats! Who could forget them?

In one of Jeff's posts earlier he mentions Hippoi worshipped as part of the Dendara cult. 

I didn't know Hyalor was a Kargzant sub-cult. I haven't seen a Kargzant write up. Jeff mentions Hyalor as worshipped as part of Yelm/Yu-Kargzant in the same post as Hippoi/Dendara.

[Jeff]

42 minutes ago, JDM said:

I'm taking the view that the cult of Yelm/Yu-Kargzant is restricted to certain lineages in Pent. Only Pure Horse clans can worship Yu-Kargzant. You have to be born into it. They form a sort of elite, controlling access to Dendara, Hyalor and Hippoi cults. I'm seeing Kargzant as a poor relation to Yu-Kargzant. Like Yelm and Lodril in Peloria. The Hoi Polloi in Pent are restricted to Kargzant. 

I've seen Nomad Gods, thanks. I was looking for suggestions any new light spirits, star spirits, etc.

Fire elementals do not seem to be available to Yelmalio in RQG. I'm thinking there is a Kargzant at the Hill of Gold myth equivalent, Kargzant defeated and loses Fire. 

I certainly haven't forgotten the goats! Who could forget them?

In one of Jeff's posts earlier he mentions Hippoi worshipped as part of the Dendara cult. 

I didn't know Hyalor was a Kargzant sub-cult. I haven't seen a Kargzant write up. Jeff mentions Hyalor as worshipped as part of Yelm/Yu-Kargzant in the same post as Hippoi/Dendara.

Hyalor is an associated cult with both Yelm and Yelmalio.

[Joerg]

7 minutes ago, JDM said:

I'm taking the view that the cult of Yelm/Yu-Kargzant is restricted to certain lineages in Pent. Only Pure Horse clans can worship Yu-Kargzant. You have to be born into it. They form a sort of elite, controlling access to Dendara, Hyalor and Hippoi cults. I'm seeing Kargzant as a poor relation to Yu-Kargzant. Like Yelm and Lodril in Peloria. The Hoi Polloi in Pent are restricted to Kargzant.

Looking at what I have seen from Six Ages so far (very little - my time on the bus is used up otherwise), the refugees from Nivorah all bring their cattle, goats and sheep, including the charioteers. None of them are pure horse folk.

I don't see the need to be a Pure Horse Pentan to worship Yu-Kargzant.  You need to be of a certain male lineage, but your selection of food animals doesn't play into this.

The reverse might be true - if you are a Pure Horse Pentan, you will in all likelihood worship Yu-Kargzant. (Although Joraz Kyrem apparently was deeply steeped in Issaries magic, too.)

 

7 minutes ago, JDM said:

Fire elementals do not seem to be available to Yelmalio in RQG. I'm thinking there is a Kargzant at the Hill of Gold myth equivalent, Kargzant defeated and loses Fire. 

There is an event mentioned by Plentonius to have happened during the reign of Son of Evil (also called Illadarga in Fortunate Succession) that reports a barbarian with an iron sword rising into the sky and bridling Kargzant. This may very well be a reflection of a Hill of Gold event, but we don't have the slightest idea about the name of that Orlanthi hero(quester).

 

7 minutes ago, JDM said:

I certainly haven't forgotten the goats! Who could forget them?

The horror!

The Berennethtelli and the Orgovaltes don't show any signs of ever having herded goats, though - but then, their Rider kings may have come from Pure Horse Hyalorings rather than from Nivorah escapees. With Yamsur present at Genert's Earthfall, I still think that the Hyalorings are originally from southern Pent, and never had lived in Nivorah.

There is a possibility that the folk of Nivorah may have been descended from Yamsur's folk in Genert's Garden, though, bringing their winged horses with them. Anaxial's saga doesn't specify how the cities other than Yuthuppa were populated after the Flood, and even with a number of families aboard, I doubt that he could have populated all seven cities that easily.

 

 

7 minutes ago, JDM said:

In one of Jeff's posts earlier he mentions Hippoi worshipped as part of the Dendara cult. 

The Grazer description in King of Sartar has Arandayla separate from La-Ungariant. Certainly an associate deity, though.

 

Jeff has already answered the Hyalor line.

 

[JDM]

45 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Hyalor is an associated cult with both Yelm and Yelmalio.

Thanks, that makes sense

[JDM]

35 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I don't see the need to be a Pure Horse Pentan to worship Yu-Kargzant.  You need to be of a certain male lineage, but your selection of food animals doesn't play into this.

The reverse might be true - if you are a Pure Horse Pentan, you will in all likelihood worship Yu-Kargzant. (Although Joraz Kyrem apparently was deeply steeped in Issaries magic, too.)

The Grazer description in King of Sartar has Arandayla separate from La-Ungariant. Certainly an associate deity, though.

With both these the emphasis was on the Solar drive for order and hierarchy. 

I’m just trying to think through the Kargzant cult and the Pent Solar Tribes, so the post was aimed at garnering some responses and discussion. You’ve given me food for thought!

[metcalph]

18 hours ago, davecake said:

And hey, isn't it a fascinating coincidence that:

• Sheng Seleris was a 'failed' mystic as well as a great Solar magician
• his lead warriors were said to follow a strict nomad lifestyle and get great magic from it
• Kargzant grants gifts and geases as one his greatest sources of magic, requiring strict adherence
• a mystic (eg Illuminate) may get many gifts, requiring him to follow a strict set of geases to obtain them, but break them with relative impunity if it becomes necessary

So Jolaty was another version of Kargzant/Yelmalio?  Should have seen that.

[davecake]

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

Jolaty was another version of Kargzant/Yelmalio?

No.

Jolaty is inverted-Kralorelan mysticism, plus turning Kralorelan torture into powerful austerities, as an ironic weapon against the hated empire

The Bursts of Sheng’s Empire were Jolaty plus Kargzant. And probably that’s just the start of their magic. 
The Rays or Emanations were traditional Pentans, Kargzant worshippers, loyal to Sheng but not Jolaty fanatics. 
The Warmed were cults that submitted to Sheng, the Fires the Solar cults of Dara Happa.

The Zolathi were Jolaty who were not nomad demigods in training, but who went among the Warmed and carried out Shengs will, primarily as it concerned magical/spiritual issues. Little magic themselves, but builders of an empire. 
 

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, davecake said:

No.

Jolaty is inverted-Kralorelan mysticism, plus turning Kralorelan torture into powerful austerities, as an ironic weapon against the hated empire

The Bursts of Sheng’s Empire were Jolaty plus Kargzant. And probably that’s just the start of their magic. 
The Rays or Emanations were traditional Pentans, Kargzant worshippers, loyal to Sheng but not Jolaty fanatics. 
The Warmed were cults that submitted to Sheng, the Fires the Solar cults of Dara Happa.

The Zolathi were Jolaty who were not nomad demigods in training, but who went among the Warmed and carried out Shengs will, primarily as it concerned magical/spiritual issues. Little magic themselves, but builders of an empire. 
 

Source?

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Source?

Yeah I am curious as well.

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

I thought that Zolathi and Jolaty were both just alternate spellings of each other?

[David Scott]

We've only three tiny references that I can find for Jolaty:

The Guide

Quote

He [Sheng Seleris] said that this knowledge was a gift given to him by his god, Jolaty.

The Intro to Glorantha 

Quote

Many years later AgartuSay returned [1355 ST] but his name was now Sheng Seleris. He claimed that Jolaty had enlightened him with the truths of good slavery that allowed him to defeat all monsters.

and Greg's unpublished Lunar Army Book (1997)

Quote

He says this knowledge was a gift given to him by his god, Jolaty. [In Kraloran: Zho Lath Ey (in DH, zolathi)] after his 100* years of Penance.

The link is then made with the Zolathi mystics in the fortunate succession.

Edited December 9, 2019 by David Scott

[davecake]

Source? Informed speculation. It fits what we currently know, and the existing game mechanics, pretty elegantly IMO. But if anyone has more info or a better theory, I’d love to hear it! 

[davecake]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Zolathi and Jolaty were both just alternate spellings of each other?

Yes, though I was using Zolathi to mean the dedicated mystics mentioned in The Fortunate Succession page 74. Its obviously linguistically related, but using same term used in context is clearer.

For mystics who shun magic use there has to be a reason their presence brings terror to the population. I think it’s because they are the instruments of Shengs efforts to reshape Dara Happan religion to his plan, and bring brutal purges to anyone who does not obey. Shrugging off divine curses as mystics do, of course. 

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

Source? Informed speculation. It fits what we currently know, and the existing game mechanics, pretty elegantly IMO. But if anyone has more info or a better theory, I’d love to hear it! 

You really should be more careful because your post made it look as though you were authoritatively relying on something.  Since you don't have anything that states Jolaty is not Kargzant/Yelmalio/etc (and I fail to see how this fits in with what we know and existing game mechanics), I'll just disgree with your speculation and its supposed elegance.

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

We've only three tiny references that I can find for Jolaty:

There is also the GloranthaCon IV compendium which has an unedited version of Greg's notes but that's more history rather than practice.

[davecake]

On 12/8/2019 at 11:26 PM, Joerg said:

The main question to me is whether that Yelm the Youth/Yelm the Rider status is an obligatory initiatory POW-sacrifice to the clan and/or tribal wyter (

Yelm the Youth is lay member, so no. 

I don't think there is ever obligatory POW-sacrifice to a wyter.