Kargzant cult progression

[JDM]

I’d be grateful for any assistance with this query. 

Does the Kargzant cult have the cult progression noted in The Guide to Glorantha, i.e. the same as Yu-Kargzant in the Glorantha: Roleplaying in Glorantha book, now that Kargzant is a Lightfore cult along the lines of Yelmalio? Is it a case of Yelmalio with a Yelm/Yu-Kargzant cult progression? Or a straight Yelmalio-like structure?

Guide to Glorantha: “Most worship Kargzant, the Sun God, whose cult progression prescribes the nomad ideals for manhood……Society is divided by genders, then into age/job strata. Children are tended by their mothers until age 14. Males are initiated to become Riders at about 14, Warriors around 23, Leaders about 43, Chieftains at 50, and Elders at 55+. Women are Riders from 14 until married, Mothers until all their children are 14 years old, Teachers from 40 or so, and Elders at 50+.”

Runequest: Roleplaying in Glorantha - Yu-Kargzant: “Initiation into the cult is hereditary and, among the Pure Horse People, it is divided into several subcults, which worshipers join and leave as they progress through their lives. An initiate belongs to only one subcult at a time, though not all subcults are equally respected. These sub-cults, ranked from novitiate to priesthood, are the Youth, the Archer, the Warrior, the Teacher, and the Elder.”

Jeff’s post on The Many Suns gave some information on the nature of Kargzant as a Lightfore cult, but unfortunately said nothing about the structure of the cult: “Kargzant is a Lightfore cult worshiped by the Pentan nomads. His cult resembles Yelmalio’s cult in most magical respects but emphasises Riding and replaces Pike skill with the Lance skill. Kargzant is even more closely associated with the Pentan Yelm cult (called Yu-Kargzant) and with the Hyalor cult, and has the Command Horse spell. He is also associated with Polaris who provides Arrow of Light. As with Elmal, Kargzant does not have gifts and geases.”

And then there’s the cryptic comment in Martin’s excellent The Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass which states “Kargzant adopted them as his people, and he divided them into three groups, their herds into three kinds, and their generations into three ages.”  The same text is found in the The Glorantha Sourcebook at page 102.

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, JDM said:

Does the Kargzant cult have the cult progression noted in The Guide to Glorantha, i.e. the same as Yu-Kargzant in the Glorantha: Roleplaying in Glorantha book, now that Kargzant is a Lightfore cult along the lines of Yelmalio? Is it a case of Yelmalio with a Yelm/Yu-Kargzant cult progression? Or a straight Yelmalio-like structure?

I'm interested in this, as well, particularly for what kind of Lightfore shamanic traditions there are to parallel the Golden Bow!

[metcalph]

8 hours ago, JDM said:

I’d be grateful for any assistance with this query. 

Does the Kargzant cult have the cult progression noted in The Guide to Glorantha, i.e. the same as Yu-Kargzant in the Glorantha: Roleplaying in Glorantha book, now that Kargzant is a Lightfore cult along the lines of Yelmalio? Is it a case of Yelmalio with a Yelm/Yu-Kargzant cult progression? Or a straight Yelmalio-like structure?

 

I think the cult progression of Yu-Kargzant is a social run imposed on all menfolk (excepting the Vendref and others).  A Grazer worshipper of Kargzant would also be initiated into Yelm of the Grazers and rise to the rank of Archer at best.  Within the cult of Kargzant, there are rune lords (I don't think the cult of kargzant is the type to have priests) but they too would have the Grazer Yelm status of Archers.  It's possible that they could be accorded the status of Sun Lord but they would be inferior to actual Sun Lords.

How the Pentans and the CharUn handle matters would be different again, I'ld think.

 

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

How the Pentans and the CharUn handle matters would be different again, I'ld think.

I remain entirely perplexed by the Char Un and why they are referred to as worshippers of the False Sun; as far as I can tell the only difference between them and the other "horseback Solars" is that they sided with the Lunars

[Tindalos]

21 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I remain entirely perplexed by the Char Un and why they are referred to as worshippers of the False Sun; as far as I can tell the only difference between them and the other "horseback Solars" is that they sided with the Lunars

Assuming the reference to Warriors of the Fake Sun does refer to the Char-Un, then it probably is their Lunar Goddess worship, as Sedenya has been referred to as a false sun (GRoY 24)

[Qizilbashwoman]

33 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Assuming the reference to Warriors of the Fake Sun does refer to the Char-Un, then it probably is their Lunar Goddess worship, as Sedenya has been referred to as a false sun (GRoY 24)

it's weird though because the Char Un are identical to their enemies, except they side with the Lunars. They're not really lunarised; they still worship Yu-Kargzant as their main deity. Probably there's some side action with the Seven Mothers? But they're not like, Moon-worshipping horsefolk. They're still, you know, Dara-Happans-on-Ponies.

[Eff]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

it's weird though because the Char Un are identical to their enemies, except they side with the Lunars. They're not really lunarised; they still worship Yu-Kargzant as their main deity. Probably there's some side action with the Seven Mothers? But they're not like, Moon-worshipping horsefolk. They're still, you know, Dara-Happans-on-Ponies.

Hypothetically, they may have accepted some kind of Lunar Truth about Yu-Kargzant that the traditional tribes reject completely. (And in turn, the abandonment of Yu-Kargzant by many Pentans after the Nights of Horrors might be due to another revelation of this truth...)

[metcalph]

8 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I'm interested in this, as well, particularly for what kind of Lightfore shamanic traditions there are to parallel the Golden Bow!

I think Shamans of Kargzant are Golden Bow Shamans who worship Kargzant as a personal spirit and there will be a fair deal of blurring about whether one is a shaman of Golden Bow or Kargzant.

[Qizilbashwoman]

7 minutes ago, Eff said:

Hypothetically, they may have accepted some kind of Lunar Truth about Yu-Kargzant that the traditional tribes reject completely. (And in turn, the abandonment of Yu-Kargzant by many Pentans after the Nights of Horrors might be due to another revelation of this truth...)

 

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I think Shamans of Kargzant are Golden Bow Shamans who worship Kargzant as a personal spirit and there will be a fair deal of blurring about whether one is a shaman of Golden Bow or Kargzant.

One of the things that isn't on the future docket AFAIK is setting info on non-Theyalan areas proximate to the Lunars (also Pamaltelan regions... but I digress a lot there). Pent. The Char Un. The Eol. I know it's not really exciting to set things in, like, the Lunar Heartlands, but these are still borderlands, especially with the areas to the West thawing out from the Ban.

[Ali the Helering]

No follower of the True Sun would sell out to a lunar (and therefore lesser) deity.  Since the Char-Un have done so, logically they do not follow the True Sun. QED

[JDM]

Very much enjoyed reading the comments about the Grazers and Char-Un. I should have made clear in my original post, and did not, that I’m interested in this particularly from the point of view of the Pentans.

Yes, things are a lot clearer in respect of the Grazers. As a Pure Horse People their main deity is Yu-Kargzant and the cult structure is as listed in RQG. The age/role progress through a cult seems to be a solar thing, yet we are told that even the Pentan Storm Tribes have maintained the ancient social structure imposed by Kargzant. What would this mean in practice for cults such as Kargzant and the Four Winds?

I raise all this because with the coming of the Hero Wars the Pentans are now back on stage. The invasion of Oraya, and Lunar forces being diverted to deal with the threat, offers interesting opportunities for role-playing and as noted above its unlikely that Pentan cults will see official publication.

[Joerg]

 

48 minutes ago, JDM said:

The age/role progress through a cult seems to be a solar thing,

Earth has this as well. Storm simply doesn't grow up to get to the mature and elder stage, the eternal adolescent.

 

48 minutes ago, JDM said:

yet we are told that even the Pentan Storm Tribes have maintained the ancient social structure imposed by Kargzant. What would this mean in practice for cults such as Kargzant and the Four Winds?

Good question. Maintaining their nomad way of life means that they retain their nomad weaponry like bow and lance as major armament.

I don't think that the Storm Pentans are in any way Pure Horse folk, they probably are more happily cattle herders and might take as much status out of cattle ownership as they do out of horse ownership.

One thing I wonder about since learning more about the Yamnaya culture is how much the Pentan way of life is on the wheel. The historical pure horse tamers of the east of the Pontic Steppe appear to have sedentary riders hunting many and herding some horses. That model doesn't work for the Pentans.

The Yamnaya were a folk living out of wagons, or carrying their mobile homes on wagons, drawn by oxen.

Pure Horse Pentans obviously have no access to oxen, but might use the chariot harness for some wheeled lifting. But the Hyalorings were riders hating charioteers. I don't think that the tribe that was called to Prax and later became the Grazers brought a single wheeled vehicle to Prax.

The Opili tribe on the other hand may have been living out of wagons.

 

The age structure works with any kind of elemental association. It does place another element of stratification into their society, along with inherited nobility, but storm people elsewhere have this concept of nobility by being born into such a household, too.

One difference in the Storm Tribes might be that their chiefs don't need the direct male line of descent from Kargzant.

48 minutes ago, JDM said:

I raise all this because with the coming of the Hero Wars the Pentans are now back on stage. The invasion of Oraya, and Lunar forces being diverted to deal with the threat, offers interesting opportunities for role-playing and as noted above its unlikely that Pentan cults will see official publication.

I guess it would be a policy decision whether to provide a re-write of the universal cult descriptions in terms of localized names, events and possibly myths of origin. I can understand that the proliferation of Kyger Litor write-ups might better be avoided in Chaosium's future, but on the other hand I see a real market for localized Orlanth write-ups.

 

[Jeff]

The Char-un, Grazelanders, and several other Pentan tribes are Pure Horse People. The Char-un pantheon is:

Yelm (called Yu-Kargzant or Kargzant the Sun). Their cult has Yelm the Youth, Yelm the Rider, Sun Lord, and Yelm the Priest. They also have the Golden Bow shamanic subcult.

Dendara/Ernalda. Yelm's wife. Not as important as among the Grazelanders (who since the FHQ worship Ernalda and not Dendara).

Yelmalio (called Kargzant or Lightfore). Not particularly important for the Char-un, but very important for the other Solar Pentans.

Eiritha. Not important to the Pure Horse People, but very important for the other Solar and Storm Pentans.

Polaris. Worshiped by many Pentans, including the Char-un.

Hyalor. Worshiped as part of the Yelm cult.

Hippoi. Worshiped as part of the Dendara cult.

Red Goddess. Important mystery cult that teaches Illumination.

Yanafal Tarnils. War god of the Lunar Empire. Popular amongst Char-un.

Jakaleel the Spindle Hag. Important shamanic cult.

Oakfed, aka Envirinus the Sacred Fire. Popular among the Char-un and other Solar Pentans. Worshiped as a spirit cult.

Unlike with the Grazelanders, the Lightbringers are not important gods for the Char-un. I sometimes think of the Grazelanders as Earth+Lightbringers (together that is about 68% of their population) worshipers with a Sun worshiper aristocracy (20% of the population). The Char-un are going to be much more Yelmic. Maybe 35% of the population are Yelm cultists, 35% Dendara, 20% Lunar, and 10% the rest.

 

[Jeff]

6 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

it's weird though because the Char Un are identical to their enemies, except they side with the Lunars. They're not really lunarised; they still worship Yu-Kargzant as their main deity. Probably there's some side action with the Seven Mothers? But they're not like, Moon-worshipping horsefolk. They're still, you know, Dara-Happans-on-Ponies.

Actually the Char-un are Pure Horse People. They herd horses only. The Voor-ash are a confederation of tribes and include Storm Pentans, Solar Pentans, and Pure Horse People. They herd cattle, and even bison and other beasts. I've even heard rumours of them using Praxian mercenaries, although that could have been the confederation that fought at the Nights of Horror.

[Tindalos]

32 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Oakfed, aka Envirinus the Sacred Fire. Popular among the Char-un and other Solar Pentans. Worshiped as a spirit cult.

Ahah! I'd felt the description on the Gods Wall suggested a similar role. Good to know, thank you.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

The Char-un, Grazelanders, and several other Pentan tribes are Pure Horse People. The Char-un pantheon is:

Yelm (called Yu-Kargzant or Kargzant the Sun). Their cult has Yelm the Youth, Yelm the Rider, Sun Lord, and Yelm the Priest. They also have the Golden Bow shamanic subcult.

Dendara/Ernalda. Yelm's wife. Not as important as among the Grazelanders (who since the FHQ worship Ernalda and not Dendara).

Yelmalio (called Kargzant or Lightfore). Not particularly important for the Char-un, but very important for the other Solar Pentans.

Eiritha. Not important to the Pure Horse People, but very important for the other Solar and Storm Pentans.

Polaris. Worshiped by many Pentans, including the Char-un.

Hyalor. Worshiped as part of the Yelm cult.

Hippoi. Worshiped as part of the Dendara cult.

Red Goddess. Important mystery cult that teaches Illumination.

Yanafal Tarnils. War god of the Lunar Empire. Popular amongst Char-un.

Jakaleel the Spindle Hag. Important shamanic cult.

Oakfed, aka Envirinus the Sacred Fire. Popular among the Char-un and other Solar Pentans. Worshiped as a spirit cult.

Unlike with the Grazelanders, the Lightbringers are not important gods for the Char-un. I sometimes think of the Grazelanders as Earth+Lightbringers (together that is about 68% of their population) worshipers with a Sun worshiper aristocracy (20% of the population). The Char-un are going to be much more Yelmic. Maybe 35% of the population are Yelm cultists, 35% Dendara, 20% Lunar, and 10% the rest.

 

KARGZANT

Kargzant is a Lightfore cult worshiped by many Pentan nomads. Before the Dawn, Kargzant was sent out from the Underworld by Yelm to travel through the broken world to find the lost pieces of light, spark, and starlight, and bring them back together. Yelm sent along many Star Captains to aid Kargzant in his quest. Kargzant prepared the world for Yelm’s return.

The Kargzant cult resembles Yelmalio’s cult in most respects (including spells, gifts, and geases) but emphasizes Ride Horse and replaces Pike skill with the Composite Bow and Kuschile Archery skills. Kargzant is even more closely associated with the Yelm cult (called Yu-Kargzant) than Yelmalio and is always closely associated with the Hyalor cult. He is also associated with Polaris who provides Arrow of Light. 

[Joerg]

Of the sons of Yelm listed in the Cult Compendium write-up, Golden Bow feels the most like Kargzant, althouh Hastatus and Sagittus probably are Lightfore deities, too. Golden Bow and Sagittus even provide the same rune spell to their father.

That write-up probably was produced in preparation for the RQ3 Gods of Glorantha box, and then skipped along with 24 other Rune Owner long cult write-ups for the short "mechanical facts only" version that was printed by AH. Many of the local deity names are still conforming to the Gods of Light nomenclature. We don't see Tolat/Jagrekriand either.

[JDM]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

The Char-un, Grazelanders, and several other Pentan tribes are Pure Horse People. The Char-un pantheon is:

Yelm (called Yu-Kargzant or Kargzant the Sun). Their cult has Yelm the Youth, Yelm the Rider, Sun Lord, and Yelm the Priest. They also have the Golden Bow shamanic subcult.

Dendara/Ernalda. Yelm's wife. Not as important as among the Grazelanders (who since the FHQ worship Ernalda and not Dendara).

Yelmalio (called Kargzant or Lightfore). Not particularly important for the Char-un, but very important for the other Solar Pentans.

Eiritha. Not important to the Pure Horse People, but very important for the other Solar and Storm Pentans.

Polaris. Worshiped by many Pentans, including the Char-un.

Hyalor. Worshiped as part of the Yelm cult.

Hippoi. Worshiped as part of the Dendara cult.

Red Goddess. Important mystery cult that teaches Illumination.

Yanafal Tarnils. War god of the Lunar Empire. Popular amongst Char-un.

Jakaleel the Spindle Hag. Important shamanic cult.

Oakfed, aka Envirinus the Sacred Fire. Popular among the Char-un and other Solar Pentans. Worshiped as a spirit cult.

Unlike with the Grazelanders, the Lightbringers are not important gods for the Char-un. I sometimes think of the Grazelanders as Earth+Lightbringers (together that is about 68% of their population) worshipers with a Sun worshiper aristocracy (20% of the population). The Char-un are going to be much more Yelmic. Maybe 35% of the population are Yelm cultists, 35% Dendara, 20% Lunar, and 10% the rest.

 

Got it. This is exactly what I was looking for, thanks Jeff

And thanks to everyone for their contributions, much appreciated

[Byll]

I can't imagine the Char'un without Ma Tamara the moon mare. Though likely she is out of canon by now. She seems like their Twinstars revelation, allowing them to integrate with the Lunar Empire.

[Tindalos]

17 minutes ago, Byll said:

I can't imagine the Char'un without Ma Tamara the moon mare. Though likely she is out of canon by now. She seems like their Twinstars revelation, allowing them to integrate with the Lunar Empire.

Could be the Pure Horse Language translation of Sedenya herself.

[davecake]

Most Pentans are not Pure Horse People like the Grazers or Char-Un. They worship Kargzant. They do not worship Yu-Kargzant.
But they retain the same social structure. So in a Kargzant tribe, they still have the same age related statuses.

On 12/6/2019 at 10:23 PM, JDM said:

Males are initiated to become Riders at about 14, Warriors around 23, Leaders about 43, Chieftains at 50, and Elders at 55+. Women are Riders from 14 until married, Mothers until all their children are 14 years old, Teachers from 40 or so, and Elders at 50+.

I think they are a bit misleading though - most males never become a leader or chieftain, many do not even progress to warrior (but instead pursue a different role via a different cult). Probably you can skip steps, but not go back - so you can go straight from Warrior to Elder, but in doing so you accept you will never be a leader or chieftain (which indeed, most warriors will not), but most just pursue advancement by other means and accept that their youthful dream of being a great warrior is unlikely. 

So probably roughly Rider = lay membership, Warrior = initiate, Leader=Light Son, Chieftain = Chief Priest (hey, Sunspear from Yu-Kargzant!), Elder = Priest, but also often retirement. 

Polaris is really important as a war deity as well - Kargzant is more about individual ability, Pole Star about fighting as a group, and also  (with Mobility and seeing in the Darkness magic) is great for scouts. Most of them fight as Light Cavalry, and Pole Star is very helpful. Only a minority of Kargzant Warriors fight as Heavy cavalry. The Warriors also worship Hyalor as an associated cult, which is great for cavalry charges (in game terms, gets them Command Horse). 

I don't know if their shamans get to belong to Golden Bow, or not. I think that the shamans among the Kargzant tribes are mostly not associated with Kargzant, but with the other star and fire deities - Polaris, Oakfed, and various star and fire deities. Note there are lots of powerful spirits that are star or Sky beings they can call down. The Polestar mountain is their great centre of shamanic power. Like most shamanic traditions there are heaps of minor spirit traditions they learn to contact as spirit cults once they are shamans. 

 

[Jeff]

17 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Could be the Pure Horse Language translation of Sedenya herself.

The Red Goddess revealed Herself directly to the Char-un way back in 1228 at the Battle of Seven Horses.  The battle gets its name because she captured that many magical steads from under the Pentan leaders. One contingent of attackers was virtually annihilated by a dazzling array of magic from the Goddess; two others wasted themselves upon fixed Lunar infantry squares on a hilltop, thanks to the manipulations of the Lunar mages. The last contingent, the Char-un, was fixed into place first by spells, and then by enchantment at the spectacle of their allies' destruction.

At the end of the day, the Char-un warriors swore loyalty to the Red Goddess in the most demeaning terms, virtually offering themselves in slavery to her. She accepted and shortly afterwards, these horse nomads moved close to the Lunar lands, shielding the eastern border from the other nomads. They grew quickly in strength, thanks to Lunar money and training, and were loyal allies through the whole period of the Goddess' stay on earth.

The Char-un worship the Red Goddess as their patron and lord. They "belong" to the Her (not the Red Emperor, but Her). They don't worship Her as a mare or whatever - they know Her as the goddess that defeated them utterly and swore loyalty and fealty to her. No revelation was necessary - they witnessed the raw power of the Red Goddess personally.

[JDM]

If I may be forgiven for answering my own question, my view in light of the above would be:

The Char-un, Grazelanders, and Pure Horse Pent Tribes are as detailed by Jeff.

For the Solar Tribes:

Kargzant does not have the age/role cult progression of Yelm (Yu-Kargzant). It is a Lightfore cult. Kargzant has the culture hero role equivalent to Waha in Prax: he protected his people in the Darkness and set out their way of life. The vast majority of Solar Tribe Pent males initiate to Kargzant.

Kargzant does not have the Fire rune and does not have Golden Bow shamans. But does have shamans who treat with Sprits of Light. (Any suggestions for characteristics and attributes of spirits of light would be gratefully received).

Eiritha is the protectress of the cattle and sheep herds. Horses are valued in Solar Tribes but not in the way they are by the Pure Horse People. The vast majority of Solar Tribe Pent females initiate to Eiritha.

So Kargzant and Eiritha in Pent are rough equivalents of Waha and Eiritha in Prax.

Within the Solar Tribes there are families or clans of Pure Horse People who worship Yelm and Dendara. I had previously thought of Hyalor and Hippoi as independent cults, but of course it makes much more sense that they are worshipped as part of Yelm and Dendara. This way the Pure Horse Tradition maintains within it, and jealously guards within it, the sources of its power.

[davecake]

The Pure Horse Tribe Yu-Kargzant and the Yelm cult differ in a few ways. The most notable of course is the Golden Bow shamanic cult. They also have quite different (but not totally) associated cults. But the other difference is that Yelm cult has the Yelm Imperator status, that you can only join if you are a legitimate significant temporal ruler, which is absent from Yu-Kargzant. 

I think the Pentan Pure Horse People are more likely to fight as Heavy cavalry than the Traditional Solar Kargzant tribes. And also much more magically powerful (both through the power of Golden Bow, and because Yu-Kargzant is far more powerful magically than Kargzant. But have lots of practical disadvantages, mostly related to horses not being as flexible or practical as a food source and herd animal.

Note that in the modern Lunar Empire, since sometime post-Jannisor at least, maybe post-Sheng, the Yelm Imperator status is tightly controlled by the Emperor directly, and he now requires that they are also initiates of the Red Goddess (and therefore Illuminated), thus further unifying the Yelmic and Lunar control over the Empire far beyond his person (and the Lunarized bureaucracy). I don't think the Empire controls the Char-Un quite so much, but the Chieftains of the Char-Un still are usually Illuminated Red Goddess initiates. 

22 hours ago, Joerg said:

I don't think that the Storm Pentans are in any way Pure Horse folk

Yes. I think they also keep to the same age related social structure, roughly, but much less rigidly (with four different options for Warrior deity, though only Orlanth/West King Wind might be an option for Leader/Chieftain?). Eirithra is still a major womans deity, but maybe under another name? 

 

 

[davecake]

And hey, isn't it a fascinating coincidence that:

• Sheng Seleris was a 'failed' mystic as well as a great Solar magician
• his lead warriors were said to follow a strict nomad lifestyle and get great magic from it
• Kargzant grants gifts and geases as one his greatest sources of magic, requiring strict adherence
• a mystic (eg Illuminate) may get many gifts, requiring him to follow a strict set of geases to obtain them, but break them with relative impunity if it becomes necessary

A 'cheap and cheezy' way to create a powerful follower of the Sheng Seleris path is to have a Kargzant cultist who has enough gifts that they have very high skills including mastery of all cult weapons as a minimum, attributes at species maximum,  permanently magically enhanced sight, and a bunch of other magical abilities. Though that is just the beginning - the most powerful have other tricks up their sleeve, including access to both Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant magic, and more (Kralori magic, for example).