Life's little questions

[Lloyd Dupont]

Every now and then, like just now, at work, I ponder about GMing a scifi campaign next to my players....

And I just stumbled about a problem little argued about until now....

As you might know (or not) it's impossible to fry food in zero gravity!

So I now wonder.. should FTL ship have artificial gravity? maintain constant acceleration when using warp drives? or (more realistically, I suppose) be in 0g while warp driving... hence suffering from many interesting issues.... Of which the lack of hot potatoes chips might be one! 😮 

Or maybe they use dried air frier? or centrifuge cooker?
So many questions! 😮 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Lloyd Dupont

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

So I now wonder.. should FTL ship have artificial gravity? maintain constant acceleration when using warp drives? or (more realistically, I suppose) be in 0g while warp driving... hence suffering from many interesting issues.... Of which the lack of hot potatoes chips might be one! 😮

give ships a spinning ring so wounds can heal and people can poop. do not google the problems with digestion in space unless you really are not squeamish because words like "the poop glove" appear.

also, in space, nobody cares that you can't fry because your nose is stuffed from blood in the head so you can't taste anything. astronauts basically rely on chili and texture.

in short, let people have access to zero-g in the center where the drive is but mostly live in a spinning ring providing significant enough g to prevent injury to the body and allowing cooking and joy.

 

[Lloyd Dupont]

The life of an astronaut is not as glamorous as it is rumoured to be!  
good tip for the spinning wheel and side effects of 0g.

I am just thinking, where better than a table top RPG can you simulate 0g life! Special effects are free!  
However my scifi RPG idea is a super advanced and unrealistic setting... But 0g can provide an additional fun weirdness....  

So right now I wonder.. should I ditch the "repulsor field" tech that I used for force field, simulated local apparent gravity, and reactionless slow propulsion.... mm... probably not... but I also imagine it's energy intensive so.... and space and energy consumption seems quite at odd to me.... (space is WYCIWIG, What You Carry Is What You Get)

Edited January 6, 2020 by Lloyd Dupont

[Bill the barbarian]

24 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

I am just thinking, where better than a table top RPG can you simulate 0g life! Special effects are free!  

Ad Salesman selling a concept to a potential customer
So would you like  a 1000 people dressed in very expensive suits singing your company song while marching through a futuristic battle field.filled with thousands of soldiers all firing lasers and people falling covered in blood, explosions, screaming—when suddenly, dinosaurs fleeing falling asteroids stampede  by... whole herds of them, carnivores, herbivores, flying ones...

Ad Customer.suspicious and sceptical 
We can’t do that it would cost a bundle, the extras would have to be paid and fed, the special FX, man that don’t come cheap... The puppets and puppeteers for the dinosaurs...it would cost millions...

Ad Salesman
Let me introduce you to our Foley Engineer (sound tech specializing in sound effects for radio).you can have him and his effects for $400 a day... 

Heard a similar sales pitch for radio ads on a radio show about advertising.  Loved it! The show was called "Under the Influence” on, of all places, the public commercial free CBC Radio One.

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

I have seen hot air friteuses that do "deep frying" without using molten high-temperature-resistant oils or fats. A steaker (a very hot infrared source placed in proximity to the meat) should work in zero g, too. So while you may not be able to fry or to use a wok, there are ways to barbecue in zero g. Use of an oven bag or an adapted Roman Pot might be possible, too - basically a sealed container or crucible in which the food (and possibly some atmosphere) is heated for cooking.

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

give ships a spinning ring so wounds can heal and people can poop. do not google the problems with digestion in space unless you really are not squeamish because words like "the poop glove" appear.

That spinning ring is possible, but needs to be fairly wide to avoid nausea - at least when moving in and out. It also acts as a huge gyro resisting vector changes of that ship. And you might need at least one counter-rotating weight or gyro to avoid the non-rotational part of the ship being dragged into unwanted rotation.

[Lloyd Dupont]

16 minutes ago, Joerg said:

or an adapted Roman Pot might be possible

Wow.. Roman had space ready technology?! 😮
Alien visited earth before, confirmed!

 

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Wow.. Roman had space ready technology?! 😮

Where do you think did Marvin the Martian get his helmet from?

But the Romans also had another way to prepare food that could be suited for zero-g - they would make pastries not only inside a bread crust, but put the sauce and meat and herbs inside a vessel of unfired clay and heat up that to get a nicely mushy broth with cooked parts inside.

Doing these filled bread rolls would be another possibility. Ideally do them bite-sized, so you don't have to worry about the stuff in the interior escaping while biting off a bit.

Using a 3D-printer for proteins and carbohydrates and flavor injections should be able to create this as synthesized food, too. The better models will provide texture, while the basic models only create some nutritious (possibly even healthy) but gastronomically bland food.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

or an adapted Roman Pot might be possible

Wow.. Roman had space ready technology?! 😮
Alien visited earth before, confirmed!

And adapted smoking pot... IN SPACE d()()d!

[Bill the barbarian]

I just confused Joerg, my work here is done!

[Joerg]

14 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I just confused Joerg, my work here is done!

Nah, that was just the effect of the pot. Could you please take your fumes elsewhere?

[Qizilbashwoman]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

That spinning ring is possible, but needs to be fairly wide to avoid nausea - at least when moving in and out. It also acts as a huge gyro resisting vector changes of that ship. And you might need at least one counter-rotating weight or gyro to avoid the non-rotational part of the ship being dragged into unwanted rotation.

We're presuming a far future with strong tech but we don't want to break reality with "grav tech", so let's presume they can handle the mechanics of the ring pretty solidly.

Or just make the entire ship like the Mormon colony ship Nauvoo in The Expanse: a tremendous spinning habitable space with zero g appearing in the "middle air".

[Joerg]

Just now, Qizilbashwoman said:

We're presuming a far future with strong tech but we don't want to break reality with "grav tech", so let's presume they can handle the mechanics of the ring pretty solidly.

Or just make the entire ship like the Mormon colony ship Nauvoo in The Expanse: a tremendous spinning habitable space with zero g appearing in the "middle air".

Having just binge-watched The Expanse seasons 3 and 4, the Behemoth (the OPA name for the Nauvoo when used as their flag-ship for investigating and ultimately entering the Ring) was spun up the first time in the braking field of the Ringspace. Much of the structure (like the drive cones, the bridge, and other sections) don't rotate and retain zero g.

I haven't seen the Behemoth maneuver with the drum spinning. To get the drum spinning, Ashcroft used the same kind of salvage drones the Belters had used to flip the inert ship during their salvage operation. To stop it from spinning likely would use the same technology.

But then, The Expanse is talking about spinning up Eros and Ceres, and getting that wrong both in the physics and in its representation on screen. About the only physics errors in the setting, if you can believe the Epstein drive efficiency.

 

Another example for spun habitats are the Earth warships in Babylon 5, and the stations Babylon 4 and Babylon 5 themselves. Those warships stop the rotation of the habitat sections before battle... physics done right.

[SDLeary]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Having just binge-watched The Expanse seasons 3 and 4, the Behemoth (the OPA name for the Nauvoo when used as their flag-ship for investigating and ultimately entering the Ring) was spun up the first time in the braking field of the Ringspace. Much of the structure (like the drive cones, the bridge, and other sections) don't rotate and retain zero g.

I haven't seen the Behemoth maneuver with the drum spinning. To get the drum spinning, Ashcroft used the same kind of salvage drones the Belters had used to flip the inert ship during their salvage operation. To stop it from spinning likely would use the same technology.

But then, The Expanse is talking about spinning up Eros and Ceres, and getting that wrong both in the physics and in its representation on screen. About the only physics errors in the setting, if you can believe the Epstein drive efficiency.

You don't really need spin as long as you can maintain acceleration (or deceleration) of some sort. The goal should be to figure out at what rate the body shifts back to working properly, that is at what rate of accel/decel (fraction of G). Then try to maintain that minimal acceleration (or higher) to maintain proper bodily functions. This should allow for a normal crapper as well.

This eliminates the need for complex rotating parts on a ship, though I do admit that swinging counter-rotating arms with habitats at the ends does look cool.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Another example for spun habitats are the Earth warships in Babylon 5, and the stations Babylon 4 and Babylon 5 themselves. Those warships stop the rotation of the habitat sections before battle... physics done right.

And don't forget the proper physics (or seriously close) fighters they had too... at least early on in the series.

SDLeary

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, SDLeary said:

And don't forget the proper physics (or seriously close) fighters they had too... at least early on in the series.

 

It was just a great show, period! And when you consider that the real ruler of the planet (not the face of the ruler, the real power) was an Indian, and she was Kick-ass, wow! Mind blowing!

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

It was just a great show, period! And when you consider that the real ruler of the planet (not the face of the ruler, the real power) was an Indian, and she was Kick-ass, wow! Mind blowing!

And the actress, Aghdashloo, is Iranian Turkmen, and I want to have her babies even though she is a quarter-century older than me. Oh my god that voice

[Lloyd Dupont]

- the problem with centrifugal gravity is you need really big ship to make it practical (ant non nauseous)
- the problem with constant acceleration is that you need a lot of energy to be on board.. (in space all you have is what you can carry and energy itself takes space, think of rocket equation)

The only "realistic" solution is to stuck 0g or assume a low energy cost artificial pseudo gravity.
I could imagine my repulsor field technology (which generate pseudo gravity and other things in my imaginary setting so far) use no energy when nothing moves...

 

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

. Oh my god that voice

agreed, that voice!

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

...

I could imagine my repulsor field technology (which generate pseudo gravity and other things in my imaginary setting so far) use no energy when nothing moves...

It's still moving stuff.

The stuff people are pointing to as not-working-in-zero-G , even though it may seem like nothing's moving, stuff IS moving.

Still, it could be using much LESS energy.

Edited January 7, 2020 by g33k

[Lloyd Dupont]

Good point, obviously if it helps, it does some work (i.e. energy is spent).. but in an empty room with only solid object might not waste any energy, or very little  

[princeofcups]

On 1/5/2020 at 10:47 PM, Lloyd Dupont said:

Every now and then, like just now, at work, I ponder about GMing a scifi campaign next to my players....

And I just stumbled about a problem little argued about until now....

As you might know (or not) it's impossible to fry food in zero gravity!

So I now wonder.. should FTL ship have artificial gravity? maintain constant acceleration when using warp drives? or (more realistically, I suppose) be in 0g while warp driving... hence suffering from many interesting issues.... Of which the lack of hot potatoes chips might be one! 😮 

Or maybe they use dried air frier? or centrifuge cooker?
So many questions! 😮 

1.  The link is behind an "advertising wall."  I cannot read the article.

2.  Frying in zero G?  Of course it's possible.  Just one way is to use a pressure cooker, or broaster.

3. There is nothing about the concept of FTL that lends itself to artificial gravity.  So it's completely up to the writer/GM.

4.  Constant acceleration of 1 Gravity does not lend itself to ever reaching the speed of light.  

[g33k]

1 hour ago, princeofcups said:

2.  Frying in zero G?  Of course it's possible.  Just one way is to use a pressure cooker, or broaster.

"Frying" is a specific cooking method, which is not pressure-cooking.  "Broasting" (deep-fry inside a pressure-cooker) still seems to rely upon the effects of gravity:  in zero G, the steam boiling off the cooking food doesn't rise.  That continuous circulation of heated oil onto the food is what makes deep-frying (and broasting) work the way they do.

AFAIK, nobody with hardcore cooking skills has ever been given a zero G kitchen& tasked with creating new methods and/or adapting old ones.  A missed opportunity, IMHO!  🙂

1 hour ago, princeofcups said:

4.  Constant acceleration of 1 Gravity does not lend itself to ever reaching the speed of light.  

Acceleration does not lend itself to ever reaching the speed of light.

FWIW:  After 2 years subjective (about 3.5-4 years to an observer at home) you are at 0.97c...

But mere "acceleration" (in any amount) will never get to 1.0c

Edited January 11, 2020 by g33k
Forgot to add the Space Chef suggestion

[Lloyd Dupont]

3 hours ago, princeofcups said:

3. There is nothing about the concept of FTL that lends itself to artificial gravity.  So it's completely up to the writer/GM.

4.  Constant acceleration of 1 Gravity does not lend itself to ever reaching the speed of light.  

What did I miss?
This seems like rebukes to an argument I didn't see! 😮 

[Zit]

many years ago a French guy invented food boxes with 2 compartments containing some chemical stuff. You just had to fold it, it broke the separation between these two compartments and both products mixed and reacted together, producing enough heat to warm up the food at about 70° (Joerg can probably give some details as a chemister). Get your warm cassoulet in space ! It had to be invented by a French. But I'm not sure it has been at last implemented.

[Lloyd Dupont]

Best way to sip wine and eat bourguignon while gazing at Titan's frozen sunset!  

[Joerg]

48 minutes ago, Zit said:

many years ago a French guy invented food boxes with 2 compartments containing some chemical stuff. You just had to fold it, it broke the separation between these two compartments and both products mixed and reacted together, producing enough heat to warm up the food at about 70° (Joerg can probably give some details as a chemister). Get your warm cassoulet in space ! It had to be invented by a French. But I'm not sure it has been at last implemented.

Not sure about the process actually used in that product, but many kinds of calcinated (dehydrated) salt will heat up when coming into contact with water again. For presenting this effect I would probably use water-free calcium chloride as that has no toxic or even noxious components. You'll just have to adjust the amount of salt to the amount of heat you want.

I don't think I'd want to carry that stuff up the gravity well at current rates (even if rocket stages can be re-used nowadays), but if you find a mineral source outside of our harsh gravity well, there is a lot less reason not to do this. Mars has an overabundance of chlorates, which could be made into chlorides and free oxygen, and the regolith has sufficient amounts of calcium to make this basic chemical. At 0.4 of our planet's gravities, getting that stuff upstairs is a lot easier once you have a base on Mars. Using Pavonis Mons, you could build a railgun to launch stuff into orbit without using any onboard fuel.

 

But back to the critique that frying requires vertical density gradients to work properly. You could have a centrifugal frying pan, with teleoperated  spatula etc. - probably a twinned set. I'd hate to do maintenance on that contraption, though. Even when you are using lotus-effect surfaces, the decrepitated hot fat and protein mix is a bitch to deal with. Laminated air flow might be able to control the fallout in addition to the centripetal force.

You'll want a maximum of recycling in low-G space cuisine, too - that means effective cleaning of used fats.

Distillation and extraction processes in the lab rely on gravity to separate stuff according to density. While centrifuges are a god-sent for accelerating separation of extracts, they are also a pain to operate, even more so if you have no gravity field to weigh your components in. That means your cook as well as your chemist in zero-G will need a robust centrifuge for weighing in stuff, or all such estimates need to be done based on volume. Such centrifuges likely need adjustable weights along their arms to prevent unbalanced mass creating destructive stress on the bearings of the centrifuge (and creating uncontrollable vibrations).