Argan Argar Sources

[jajagappa]

46 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

So Shargash and Annilla are supposed to be Yelm's children by Xentha?

According to at least that source, yes.

47 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Yelm and Xentha conceived Shargash in the Underworld?

Perhaps he was conceived as bloody Yelm sank into the Gates of Dusk?  Of course, Shargash appears in earlier scenes as is the way of the Godtime, so there are other stories which make Shargash a son of Yelm and Dendara.

48 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

the origins of Tolat and Annilla?

Tolat is the Artmali/Trowjang name for Shargash, and the origin as the son of the Sun and Night is correct for that.  

Annilla has a few origin stories. One is that she is the child of Primal Darkness and Primal Water.  Another that she is the child of Yelm and the River Styx from after Yelm's death.

[Sir_Godspeed]

I have to admit I thought that Xentha was a Darkness deity that preceded Yelm's death, but my memories have been shown to be erroneous before, so I guess I'm off. 

That being said, there is that whole business with nights in the Green Age, before the enthronement of Yelm/usurpation of the White Goddess and the Golden Age proper. Maybe Yelm and Xentha could have mixed back then.

[jajagappa]

11 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Xentha was a Darkness deity that preceded Yelm's death

She rose when Yelm died to blanket the sky.  Presumably around before then, but no night before Yelm falls from his zenith.

[Mirza]

While it might be tempting to conflate the mother of Tolat/Shargash with the Xentha with that info in isolation, the Xeotam Dialogues in the Sourcebook are more explicit on that relationship "Tolat and Anehilla, twins of Ehilm and Nakala." -Page 74, near the end. And Xentha was certainly known by Xeotam as she's mentioned earlier in the Dialogues, so it isn't a mistake of just giving another name to the same deity though we can certainly get into the discussion of Night as an emanation of Primal Darkness.

While Xeotam is giving us the perspective from a Malkioni perspective (Rokari or Old Hrestolist), he uses what seems to be a combination of Enerali (Fornaoli) theology, and some God Learner monomythics. If I had to say, the conflation of whatever the Enerali (Fornaoli) Red Planet Deity is (Zaval? Torif Vamale? Zolan?) with the Teshnan Tolat is the God Learnerism, but that deity probably is considered by the Fornaoli to be one of Ehilm and Nakala's twin children.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Mirza

[Joerg]

Tolat and Annilla have been said to be twins in early sources on the gods known in the West, the expression of the Twins (named among the Elder Gods in the first installment of Gods and Goddesses).

Weirdly, the myth of the Three Sky-Witches from Pamaltela (which should know Tolat) has Veldara/Annilla's "brother" born in Hell as Chermata/Lokarnos, born to Enjata-Mo (Black Dendara/KataMoripi in Entekosiad) and Bijiif (no local name of dead Kendamalar given in Revealed Mythologies).

There is more anachronism surrounding Shargash/Tolat (clearly predating the death of Yelm, as Tolat fought and chained Umath in Pamaltelan myth, too) and Artmal, son of Annilla born on the Blue Moon (who aided his uncle Tolat in that endeavor, gaining the Red Sword in thanks). The Red Sword which may have been involved (wielded by Tolat/Shargash) in the demise of Yelm, according to the imagery in Prince of Sartar.

Godtime cycles aren't a perfect linear sequence. I'll have to create some graphics to illustrate how I attempt to maintain my sanity in keeping causality independent from apparent time flow. (Producing those graphics might be called up as counter-evidence to me succeeding maintaining my sanity, though....)

 

Verithurus(a) and Shargash are Planetary "Sons" of Yelm and (only presumably) Dendara/Entekos, and Verithurusa and Shargash have bad sibling rivalry after her descent into the Underworld following Umath's invasion of the sky (and possibly mating with him there).

Whether Xentha (known as Netta) is a possible mother of those earlier incarnations of the Red Planet and the Moon is another question. The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm names Netta's arrival in the Glorious Realm on p.14, and gives her position on the Gods Wall (IV-5) in the footnote. An event clearly predating the Death of Yelm - even predating the rise of Entekos (the first rebel god insisting she had a name of her own).

 

All the writings of Plentonius are revisionist history, though, and I have a suspicion that the Copper Tablets aren't that much better.

[soltakss]

15 hours ago, dumuzid said:

Tolat meaning Shargash, of course.  So Shargash and Annilla are supposed to be Yelm's children by Xentha?  Yelm and Xentha conceived Shargash in the Underworld?  Does anyone know of a source for the origins of Tolat and Annilla?

In my Glorantha, Annilla was born when Yelm's Light mixed with the Darkness of the Styx and Lorion was born when Anilla enveloped Yelm as she was born.

However, my Glorantha varies.

Edited March 13, 2020 by soltakss

[Sir_Godspeed]

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

Whether Xentha (known as Netta) is a possible mother of those earlier incarnations of the Red Planet and the Moon is another question. The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm names Netta's arrival in the Glorious Realm on p.14, and gives her position on the Gods Wall (IV-5) in the footnote. An event clearly predating the Death of Yelm - even predating the rise of Entekos (the first rebel god insisting she had a name of her own).

 

I was thinking of that, but my previous attempt to link Xentha/Netta to Yelm to make him the father of Argan Argar proved fanciful, and I can't see any other explicit reference of them mating either. 

But yeah, Tolat/Shargash was definitely around before Yelm died. Not only as a war-god, but in his other roles as well (as Alkoth's founder, as a possible slash-and-burn deity, etc.). 

SOMETHING gave Tolat/Shargash his dark side, and I doubt it was (orthodox) Dendara, imho.

[Mirza]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

SOMETHING gave Tolat/Shargash his dark side, and I doubt it was (orthodox) Dendara, imho.

Psst, "Tolat and Anehilla, twins of Ehilm and Nakala" Glorantha Sourcebook, page 74, Xeotam Dialogues.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Mirza

[Sir_Godspeed]

7 minutes ago, Mirza said:

Psst, "Tolat and Anehilla, twins of Ehilm and Nakala" Glorantha Sourcebook, page 74, Xeotam Dialogues.

You're right, I was kinda stuck in the Pelorian context, so beyond that there is evidence.

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I was thinking of that, but my previous attempt to link Xentha/Netta to Yelm to make him the father of Argan Argar proved fanciful, and I can't see any other explicit reference of them mating either. 

But yeah, Tolat/Shargash was definitely around before Yelm died. Not only as a war-god, but in his other roles as well (as Alkoth's founder, as a possible slash-and-burn deity, etc.). 

SOMETHING gave Tolat/Shargash his dark side, and I doubt it was (orthodox) Dendara, imho.

Yes. Here's an alternative story that may be completely corrupt.

The green orb above the Green City of the South stood fast in the spiral assault of Umath into the Middle Sky. Checking his onrush with a body check (which may have crumbled the top of his ziggurat), Alkor the Green then trailed his stumbling uncle, peppering him with missiles (javelins) until he crashed into the northern Pillar, leaving a huge crater behind where he had entered the Underworld.

Caught up in a battle rage, Alkor followed, and went on to fight mighty Umath, only to be badly mangled. But he wasn't the only attacker of the Primal Storm, there also was an Underworld defender who had come to keep out the invader. Both Alkor and the Underworld defender had been badly mangled, with half of their being having been shred off in small tatters by the struggling (but likewise wounded) Primal Storm.

Both defenders would expire soon, their task left undone, but both recognized a shared purpose, and that shared purpose led them to unite their selves and form a new entity that could continue the fight. Thus Shargash was formed, and thus did he dismember Umath. And that is how an Underworld Guardian became a celestial deity.

[dumuzid]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Both defenders would expire soon, their task left undone, but both recognized a shared purpose, and that shared purpose led them to unite their selves and form a new entity that could continue the fight. Thus Shargash was formed, and thus did he dismember Umath.

At this point in the myth, rather than Alkoth/Tolat and the Underworld Defender fusing, I'd have Xiolah Umbar emerge from the shadows, clicking her Darksense disapprovingly.  "Brothers, brothers, haven't we talked about what happens when you fight each other?" she'd say, as she puts Shargash and the Underworld Defender, Zorak Zoran, into healing trances.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, dumuzid said:

At this point in the myth, rather than Alkoth/Tolat and the Underworld Defender fusing, I'd have Xiolah Umbar emerge from the shadows, clicking her Darksense disapprovingly.  "Brothers, brothers, haven't we talked about what happens when you fight each other?" she'd say, as she puts Shargash and the Underworld Defender, Zorak Zoran, into healing trances.

But that would mean that Umath remains in one piece. And neither Shadzor nor Alkor can have that.

[dumuzid]

Just now, Joerg said:

But that would mean that Umath remains in one piece. And neither Shadzor nor Alkor can have that.

Not if the brothers share in a stormy victory feast while they recuperate, the truly Darkness way to do things.

[scott-martin]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

But that would mean that Umath remains in one piece. And neither Shadzor nor Alkor can have that.

Not a purely rhetorical question: can any member of the Shadzor / Alkor (Tolat) complex exist simultaneously with a unified Umath? 

3 hours ago, dumuzid said:

Not if the brothers share in a stormy victory feast while they recuperate, the truly Darkness way to do things.

 

[dumuzid]

Of course, elsewhere in the sourcebook (p. 80) Annilla's theogony is given as "a daughter of a Sea God and a Darkness goddess," so who's to say Xeotam's the final authority?  I've read Malkioni takes on the creation that don't even recognize Darkness as a distinct element.  The genealogy of Darkness gods is a murky subject at best.

[Minlister]

A small "curiosity" for staging a Zorak Zoran encounter.

We know that ZZ stole his fire powers from Yelmalio at the Hill of Gold (probably on the summit as ZZ is always best on the top).

But Yelmalio kept his light power .

Should we understand then that the fire wielded by ZZ is a "light-less" one? Some kind of black fire? I ask for the sake of description of the magic of his initiates.

Thanks for any light you can shed on that...

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Minlister said:

Should we understand then that the fire wielded by ZZ is a "light-less" one? Some kind of black fire? I ask for the sake of description of the magic of his initiates.

 

I guess I always interpreted that as raw heat.

[Minlister]

So you mean with no visual effect at all? That would be quite scary to be fried in total darkness...

[Sir_Godspeed]

3 hours ago, Minlister said:

So you mean with no visual effect at all? That would be quite scary to be fried in total darkness...

Well... that might be a bit boring, I guess, maybe like a dull red glow from the sheer heat going through matter, or something. Whatever people think makes sense.

[dumuzid]

4 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Well... that might be a bit boring,

Heat without light might not do anything for conventional sight, but I bet any warping of sound and echo caused by an area of sudden, severe temperature change around whatever's being heated would be pretty obvious to Darksense.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, dumuzid said:

Heat without light might not do anything for conventional sight, but I bet any warping of sound and echo caused by an area of sudden, severe temperature change around whatever's being heated would be pretty obvious to Darksense.

Except that Darksense doesn't work with sound going through the medium air, but with "sound" going through elemental Darkness.

Absence of Cold would modify the quality of Darkness that resonates with Darksense, so possibly yes.

(Did Glorantha predict Dark Matter all those years ago?)

From my experience, molten lead or pewter doesn't really radiate that much heat, but boy does it interact with surfaces upon longer exposure.

 

But then, IMO Zorak Zoran stole fire, the whole combo. The power of Death (to the Underworld). Yelmalio barely managed to hold on to a pale light, and whatever heat he might have had was lost in his contest with Inora.

[dumuzid]

In the next weekend or so I expect to have an opportunity to run a heroquest of the Wooing of Esrola.  It's a relatively widely-referenced myth, and includes several pretty significant mythic events, but I can't find a more detailed version than the version from the Guide to Glorantha, p. 234:

It's interesting, but pretty barebones.  So I've gone and written a more detailed outline, at least enough to structure a full heroquest around.  Love to hear some feedback, this may see use few days:

The Wooing of Esrola

An Argan Argar Myth of the Storm Age

1.       The Wedding of Ernalda and Orlanth.  Argan Argar is a wedding guest.  Ernalda suggests he meet her sister Esrola, who is trapped in a disagreeable union with Lodril, the Burning King.

2.       The Meeting of Argan Argar and Esrola.  Argan Argar and his companions reach the hills and house of Esrola.  She asks for mercy, he instead offers aid and friendship.  She lists her Three Banes, and Argan Argar promises to vanquish them.

3.       The First Bane: the Hail Demons.  Avlaktrus the Slinger, a demon prince from Vadrusland, harasses Esrola’s house with his raids.  Argan Argar draws a strand of the Nightweb to snare Avlaktrus’s warband in midair, then he and his companions climb up to battle the hail demons.  Argan Argar gives the glacial demons their lives in exchange for softening their visits to storms of rain and snow.

4.       The Second Bane: the Creeping Flood.  The coils of Sshorg, a great dragon of the sea, lap about Esrola’s shores, flooding her basements and threatening to turn her hills into islands.  Ernalda leads her sister Maran Gor in a dance that opens a valley in the land for Sshorg to flow into, then closes it tight around his throat.  Argan Argar promises the dragon its freedom in exchange for a service.

5.       The Third Bane: the Wracking Fumes.  Esrola’s sometimes-husband, Lodril the Burning God, shudders the earth and chokes the air when he visits.  He is her strongest bane, and rules a kingdom upon and beneath the earth of his numberless sons and servants.  Argan Argar and his companions meet Lodril on the march, and combine their powers with the Storm and Sea power of the vanquished banes to quell Lodril’s fire and bind him in chains of shadow.

6.       The Wedding of Esrola and Argan Argar.  Argan Argar commands the humbled Lodril to raise the Palace of Black Glass atop the Shadow Plateau, and offers it to Esrola.  They move in together, and invite many gods and other powerful beings to a divine feast to celebrate.

[Sir_Godspeed]

This seems all right, although I'm on the fence of using Lodril for Veskarthan. Also, I'm not sure whether or not you'd like to include the phallic imagery of Argan Argar taking Veskarthan's "spear" in there, or whether it is best served as a separate myth.

[dumuzid]

3 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This seems all right, although I'm on the fence of using Lodril for Veskarthan.

That's a fair point, but the naming was deliberate; in-character, this is a retelling of the Esrolian version of the myth for a primarily Sartarite and Tarshite audience.

  e:

3 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm not sure whether or not you'd like to include the phallic imagery...

Given the themes and forces involved, there's an element of 'Argan Argar & co. symbolically castrating/domesticating each of Esrola's former lovers' to each of the bane stories.

Read the right way, this is also a story about how Ernalda saw the effectiveness of the Dark Tribe during Orlanth's courtship, and turned one of her former suitors (Argan Argar) into the means of avenging Esrola on her disloyal lovers and giving her a match capable of stabilizing Kethaela.

Edited April 4, 2020 by dumuzid

[jajagappa]

31 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This seems all right, although I'm on the fence of using Lodril for Veskarthan.

They are the same deity (or at least the God Learners would say so), so this works fine.

48 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm not sure whether or not you'd like to include the phallic imagery of Argan Argar taking Veskarthan's "spear" in there, or whether it is best served as a separate myth.

This seems like an important piece of the story.  It's certainly a very significant part of Argan Argar's binding of Lodril/Veskarthan.