Jump to content

Argan Argar Sources


dumuzid

Recommended Posts

33 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

When the Hendriki rose against the Shadowlands their own guardians should've punished them, but didn't.

The Hendriki did not rise against the Shadowlands. You seem to confuse the term Hendriki with the larger term Heortlings, which basically means all the Orlanthi descended from the Vingkotlings and accepting King Heort's leadership in the Silver Age. The tribes of Korol, all his sisters, and the star tribes that formed from the remains of the Lastralgortelli (Liornvuli, Forosilvuli) and Jorganostelli (Stravuli, possibly the two southern tribes of the Sedenorvuli and Garanvuli, and the Deleskaring people of Berthestead).

The Tax Slaughter was something that started in Dragon Pass, but it was not something the Hendriki did.

We have a list of Hendriki kings and heroes for the time of the Tax Slaughter. Hardrad Hardslaughter is not one of them.

 

There was an "Arkati" from the Hendrikings who took his fellow Shadowlords down in a horrifying feast of revenge that would have made A Game of Thrones proud, and there was little love lost between the Hendriki and the Shadowlords much of the time. Plus the Only Old One failed to deliver his promises of support when the Slontans conquered much of Heortland, but the dragonfriends sort of respected his authority over Esrolia and the region now known as Heortland.

  • Thanks 1

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Funny story, they called me into Mother Market a few weeks ago and over a staggering number of drinks one of the old guys mumbled in my ear, "you know Issaries is a black god too." I did my usual but would not be surprised if that rogue factoid plays a role here. Eager to see where you go with all this. 

 

The friendship between Argan Argar and Issaries is one thing I've found zero sources on thus far, other than bald statements that Argan Argari are welcome among Issaries cultists and vice versa, and would love to hear more about.

 

59 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Hendriki did not rise against the Shadowlands. You seem to confuse the term Hendriki with the larger term Heortlings, which basically means all the Orlanthi descended from the Vingkotlings and accepting King Heort's leadership in the Silver Age. The tribes of Korol, all his sisters, and the star tribes that formed from the remains of the Lastralgortelli (Liornvuli, Forosilvuli) and Jorganostelli (Stravuli, possibly the two southern tribes of the Sedenorvuli and Garanvuli, and the Deleskaring people of Berthestead).

The Tax Slaughter was something that started in Dragon Pass, but it was not something the Hendriki did.

We have a list of Hendriki kings and heroes for the time of the Tax Slaughter. Hardrad Hardslaughter is not one of them.

 

There was an "Arkati" from the Hendrikings who took his fellow Shadowlords down in a horrifying feast of revenge that would have made A Game of Thrones proud, and there was little love lost between the Hendriki and the Shadowlords much of the time. Plus the Only Old One failed to deliver his promises of support when the Slontans conquered much of Heortland, but the dragonfriends sort of respected his authority over Esrolia and the region now known as Heortland.

You're entirely right, I took for granted that Hardros was a Kethaelan Orlanthi, and then conflated them with other Heortish peoples.  One area of the setting I'm definitely weak on is the particulars of Orlanthi history and geography.

Can you expand on the Slontan invasion?  It'd be interesting if Ezkankekko failed to support the Heortlings against that Western/Middle Sea Empire encroachment, but did help organize the Unity Battle to defeat Zistor in the same broad historical period.

And that Arkati Hendriking Shadowlord, any further details you can recall about that would be great.

Edited by dumuzid
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

The friendship between Argan Argar and Isarries is one thing I've found zero sources on thus far, other than bald statements that Argan Argari are welcome among Issaries cultists and vice versa, and would love to hear more about.

The old guys definitely do not like to talk about it when they're sober. Maybe we'll figure it out together as a sideline to your main project. I think the shortest rebus to solve might be who got the pieces when the Communication joint venture was dissolved. AA was loaded for Harmony but always imported his Change from across the bay (Larnste country) and then the Belintar reforms uh canalized that relationship so it flows differently now.

  • Like 1

singer sing me a given

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Thank you, Jeff.  Since you're here, and you're already addressing an element of the question, maybe you can illuminate something up for me?  The Guide to Glorantha gives Argan Argar's runes as Darkness, Communication, Mastery; RQ:G gives them as Darkness and Harmony.  I assumed this difference was a matter of making RQ:G a more playable game, by making the set of player-usable runes more uniform and dualistic--Isarries loses his Communication rune in the translation to RQ:G as well, after all.  I haven't made a detailed cross-reference, but it looks like Orlanth's cult is the only one in the RQ:G core that kept its Mastery rune.  I'd love to hear more about the design process of how the theistic rune affinities were translated into the current game edition, and what the shift from Darkness+Communication+Mastery to Darkness+Harmony means for your interpretation of Argan Argar.

RuneQuest forced us to really examine the Runes carefully, and it forced us to correct some lazy mistakes that had creeped in. Argan Argar is Harmony with Darkness -peaceful  coexistence with the Shadows. His is not Communication - that is Issaries' Rune (a combination of Change and Harmony). 

Orlanth is the God of Heroes, or more precisely the Hero God. He has conquered and taken from all the other Elements. He's even connected to the Dragons, as a killer or as an ally. That's why the Storm God gets the Mastery Rune.

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Can you expand on the Slontan invasion?  It'd be interesting if Ezkankekko failed to support the Heortlings against that Western/Middle Sea Empire encroachment, but did help organize the Unity Battle to defeat Zistor in the same broad historical period.

History of the Heortling peoples is the main source for this, although The Middle Sea Empire has most of the dates of the Slontan activities in the region.

HotHP p.74 mentions the invasions by westerners.

12 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

And that Arkati Hendriking Shadowlord, any further details you can recall about that would be great.

Daramhy was an Arkati whose wife was killed by trolls among the Arkati, and he went on a suicidal rampage among the troll Arkati who were at fault. Pages 40, 72.

  • Thanks 1

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Orlanth is the God of Heroes, or more precisely the Hero God. He has conquered and taken from all the other Elements. He's even connected to the Dragons, as a killer or as an ally. That's why the Storm God gets the Mastery Rune.

Would a similar case apply to Pavis as well? With his conquest and treaties with the elements to gain his elementals along with his various impressive deeds?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Would a similar case apply to Pavis as well? With his conquest and treaties with the elements to gain his elementals along with his various impressive deeds?

No. Pavis had the Mastery Rune when he was a living mortal Hero. As the god of a city, he does not. Pavis has Harmony, Stasis, Man, and Earth. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Jeff said:

No. Pavis had the Mastery Rune when he was a living mortal Hero. As the god of a city, he does not. Pavis has Harmony, Stasis, Man, and Earth. 

What about Ezkankekko's runes?  And by the same token, is there a change between what he had in life and the runes for his respective troll and human cults (i.e. Kimantor in Nochet)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Before I get into the meat of the tale I have to tell, I'd like to open with a request.  I'm looking into sources for Belintar's conquest of the Holy Country.  History of the Heortling Peoples describes the events from the Heortling perspective, and so is mostly concerned with how the Kethaelan Orlanthi faired in the conquest (poorly).  Esrolia: Land of 10,000 Goddesses gives the cute explanation that 'the story of Belintar's conquest is too well-known for us to bother giving an account here' when it reaches the relevant point in its chronology. The description of Belintar's conquest in the write-up of the Holy Country in Guide to Glorantha Vol. 1 is the most detailed I've found, but even it deals with the whole five-year magical, multidimensional war in the space of a paragraph, plus some art and asides elsewhere.  So, open question: does anyone know of a more detailed source on Belintar's war to depose the Only Old One and create the Holy Country?  Especially anything on the level of the detailed (if incomplete) account of the Machine War in Heortling Peoples.  I'd appreciate anything that can help me better understand how Belintar proved the Only Old One's senescence to his former allies.  Thanks in advance.

Now, without much further ado, a sad tale.  I've broken it into parts, via spoiler tags, to present less of a wall of text:

How Eurmal Doomed the Only Old One

Image result for eurmal rune cult

 

In the Darkness, Argan Argar wed Esrola, and commanded Lodril to raise a palace for them: Akez Loradak, the Palace of Black Glass, paired with Esrola's Throne at the other end of the Shadow Plateau.  Their son was Ezkankekko, called Only Old One.  As the Darkness deepened and Chaos waxed Esrola died and, like her sister Ernalda, went to rest in the Underworld.  We have no myths of when and how Argan Argar entered the Underworld in the Darkness, that I have read.  Born to Xentha on the surface, he would've been one of the few troll gods for whom it was a new journey, not a homecoming.  I have mentioned my ideas about an 'Argan Argar at Death's Gate' subcult that may lie submerged in the 'modern' (circa the 1620s ST) cult in a previous post, and will return to that idea later.

Akez Loradak holds a special place in both human and troll myth because it was part of the Light/Lifebringers' quest.  When Orlanth and his companions reached the palace, after many trials and long journeys, they were hosted as guests and treated hospitably, for the first time in a long time.  Argan Argar and Esrola were gone; Ezkankekko ruled Akez Loradak, and was a generous host to his father's friends and mother's kin.  Then Heortling Mythology (2010) makes two apparently contradictory statements in rapid succession:

1) image.png.a9295a04a8c5201c7d6e98216278058a.png (Heortling Mythology p. 112, left column)

This passage comes from the long descent into the Underworld in the Lifebringers Quest; i.e., the Lifebringers found their way into the deep basements of Akez Loradak, which reached straight into the Underworld, and were invited up to the more human-friendly areas to rest.  It seems to say that Only Old One broke the obligations of hospitality and turned on his guests.  This would be uncharacteristic for the being who later gathers together the surviving people of Dragon Pass to fight the Unity Battle.

Then comes the second statement:

2) image.png.f0330f5cadfe8929842982c4294a05cd.png(Heortling Mythology p. 112, left column)

The 'him' in this passage is Orlanth.  It describes the nadir of the Lifebringers Quest, when Orlanth and his companions were scattered and defeated in the Underworld.  It also reveals the truth behind the strange 'betrayal of the Only Old One,' that Eurmal broke the laws of hospitality first.  It seems two accounts are mingled in this retelling of the Underworld Journey: the version where the cause for Ezkankekko's withdrawal of hospitality is unknown, and the version where it is known, at least by Orlanth's cult.  We have some strong indication of which is the true version, though: in their version of the same events, Eurmal's cult gloats over the event, and offers more sordid details:

3) image.png.863188c4ba705f33cd6a4e4662954e19.png(Heortling Mythology p. 117, right column)

This passage comes from Eurmal the Lifebringer, which tells the Lifebringers Quest from the Trickster's perspective.  The picture it paints is ugly.  According to Eurmal's own cult, the cause for Ezkankekko's 'betrayal' of Orlanth was Eurmal seducing and murdering his son.  Only Old One expelled the Lifebringers from the palace in a rage.  Taken together, we can see the layers of the story: the surface version other Lifebringer cults might have, i.e. the version of the story Orlanth told his companions; the Orlanthi version, with details extracted from Eurmal through Orlanth's unique relationship to the Trickster; and the deep version, the full details of which are probably known only to the cults of Eurmal, Argan Argar and Ezkankekko himself.  All this is clear, and ugly, enough, but I want to draw your attention to the phrase, 'so that Only Old One would be the last of His line.'  That is the real, awful legacy of this event, as we shall see.

The next myths I have found that touch on Only Old One and Akez Loradak come from

Esrolia: Land of 10,000 Goddesses.  They come from the time in the Great Darkness after the gods and Vingkotling kings were dead, and the Grandmothers of Nochet formalized the Nochet Compact that governs their city.  The myth of Norinel and Kimantor tells how the people of Nochet survived through the Great Darkness.  Norinel was widowed after the terrible events that destroyed the Vingkotling kingdom, like many Esrolian women.  The city needed new people to survive, and her Grandmother concluded that Norinel should have children.  Her Grandmother matched Norinel to a foreign suitor: a man who 'was of darkness and the night,' who they called Kimantor, "the Man You Cannot See."  The myth is long, and tells the story of how the human woman and her part-human husband came to understand each other, and how that understanding was essential for the defense of the city and its people.  The myths describe a brief renaissance once Norinel and Kimantor fully sync with each other, when the hero and heroine led Nochet to reconquer and refertilize lands once surrendered to Chaos.  Yet the tide turns; eventually the power of Chaos waxes strong enough that Kimantor tells Norinel, "We need to survive this time, not to win."  The myths say they sacrificed a third of all Nochet's goods to the dead gods, laid out another third as a decoy for the Chaos monsters, and gathered up the remaining third as supplies for their journey.  Then all the people of Nochet abandoned the city and climbed the Shadow Plateau to Akez Loradak, which the Esrolian myths call "the Great Fortress."  The palace was abandoned when Norinel and Kimantor led the refugees of Nochet inside. 

With both his peoples safe in Akez Loradak Kimantor, aka Ezkankekko, aka Only Old One, went out among the other surviving peoples of Dragon Pass, and began the negotiations that would gather the Unity Army.  The Esrolians call the Unity Battle the Battle of Nochet, and describe how Kimantor, under the new name Lord Victory Nightbrother (amazing), gathered the followers of Heort, the Esrolians and uz, aldryami, dragonewts and mostali, and the Lord of Gold (who I assume to be the Gold Wheel Dancer who eventually joined the Unity Council, but may be a gold mostali or something else) to fight the hordes of Chaos for the ruins of Nochet.  The Esrolian version of the Unity Battle concludes with Norinel and Kimantor re-founding the city.  Their children founded many of the great houses of Nochet at the Dawn, and Kimantor is responsible for founding Nochet's professional army, the 'Kimantorings,' who began as his household guards in the Darkness.

The Eurmal cult says their god's betrayal on the Lifebringers Quest ended Only Old One's line.  The Esrolians record families still alive 'today,' in the 1620s, descended from Only Old One--fully human families, not half-trolls or demigods.  I think both of these statements are true, and not just in the 'everything is true in the God Time' sense.  The Esrolian myths make no mention of the Lifebringer visit to Akez Loradak.  Norinel is still worshiped in Nochet as Mother of the City; whatever else, if Eurmal had murdered one of Norinel's sons by Only Old One, you'd think Nochet's mythology would remember even if broader Orlanthi myth might rather forget.  Chronology is an illusion in the God Time, but I think we can now assemble a mortal-intelligible chain of events at the Palace of Black Glass:

1) The Lesser Darkness.  Argan Argar and Esrola reign together at Akez Loradak.

2) The Greater Darkness.  Esrola and Argan Argar depart for the Underworld.  Ezkankekko rules Akez Loradak with an unnamed spouse or lover, who bears him an unnamed, demigod son.

3) The Lifebringers find refuge in Akez Loradak.  Eurmal seduces and murders Ezkankekko's son.  Ezkankekko casts the Lifebringers out, back into the Underworld.  Ezkankekko and his trolls abandon the Palace of Black Glass.

4) Ezkankekko weds Norinel under the name Kimantor; his trolls settle into post-Vingkotling Nochet and help defend the city against Chaos.

5) Kimantor and Norinel lead the exodus from Nochet back up to the Palace of Black Glass, humans and uz together.  Kimantor adopts the name Lord Victory Nightbrother, and leads the living to triumph over Chaos.

6) Kimantor and Norinel re-found Nochet; their mortal, human children are among its leaders and priests in the Silver Age and Dawn.

Come the Dawn, the Only Old One's line has not failed, he has several lines of descent just among the humans of Nochet, but his descendants aren't like him.  They're normal, mortal humans, and I think this is the distinction the Eurmali myth is getting at.  I believe that by murdering Ezkankekko's son, Eurmal ended the potential for a dynasty of demigods at Akez Loradak.  From the context and grammar of the Eurmali myth I get the impression that Ezkankekko's son was more than mortal, like himself, another demigod--as in, another immortal, who would make Ezkankekko not the only Old One.  Now, Eurmal's murder alone would not seem to explain why this potential was lost: you'd figure if the Only Old One could have one demigod child, he'd be capable of siring another.  I haven't seen a source that mentions the identity of Ezkankekko's spouse or mate; it could be that there was something unique about her that made the miracle child possible.  There's a hint though, tucked away in Heortling Mythology, in the section discussing the missionaries of the Unity Council after the Dawn:

image.png.25fecc03d03bd25d8c5753e6a06f9b43.png(TBoHM p. 134, right column)

This is the only mention I've seen of this episode from Ezkankekko's life in the Greater Darkness.  Given the rough chronology established above, I think it falls some time between points 3 and 4.  I think after he expelled the Lifebringers from the Palace of Black Glass, Ezkankekko and his trolls abandoned it in their grief for the depths beneath the Shadow Plateau.  Down there they fought Chaos in the darkness, and would've starved if not for Ezkankekko's sacrifice.  His marriage to Norinel after he and his trolls emerged from the Plateau makes perfect sense as the next step in their struggle "to clear the Above World too."  The marriage, explained to Norinel by her Grandmother as being necessary to make children to replenish the city, was also the Grandmothers' alliance contract with Kimantor, giving their city powerful protectors against Chaos while granting Ezkankekko a secure base on the surface.

What was 

sapped from Ezkankekko to sustain his troll followers could mean many things, but whatever else it did I think it took two primary qualities from him: the ability to breed true (whatever that meant for a multi-species, shapeshifting demigod), and an element of his power to change.  Ezkankekko kept the ability to assume new forms as he needed through the end of the Darkness; several versions of the Unity Battle describe him as appearing in the guise of each group he approached, to the point that when people from two different groups looked at him, each saw a leader of their own kind.  Powerful Harmony magic.  It was his agreements that he seemed unable to change or revise.  The Kingdom of Night that waxed and waned through Time, until its final destruction by Belintar, had a terrible Achilles' Heel: Ezkankekko's authority with all those whose ancestors made pacts with him in the Darkness was great, but tightly circumscribed by those original pacts.  He doesn't seem to have made many new ones after the Dawn; certainly not after the Bright Empire washed over Kethaela and the later Tax Revolt.  He could not intervene in any conflict not covered in the terms of the original, ancient pacts.  We have cases where the old pacts were re-established, as by Arkat after the Bright Empire, but I have yet to see a source describing the renegotiation of a Shadow Tribute, short of its total negation in cases like the Tax Revolt. 

Ezkankekko was powerful, but by the time the Unity Council broke over the Nysalor experiment he was deeply stuck in his ways, and never attempted to closely govern the tributaries of the Kingdom of Night.  His Kimantorings were a ferocious fighting force at the Dawn, professional soldiers sworn to fierce gods of death and darkness governed by a code called Kimantor's Orders, but they failed to innovate when faced by new eruptions of Chaos within Time like the martial expressions of Nysalor's power in the Bright Empire.  By the time Belintar washed ashore in year 1313 after the Dawn the Kingdom of Night was contracted to a shabby remnant of its former self.  As Jeff said, the foreigner convinced the powers of Kethaela that he deserved to depose the Only Old One, whose reign and self had fallen into decay.  The flaw in his divinity introduced when he allowed his followers to feed on him in the Darkness had blossomed from stagnation into senility.  Belintar triumphed after five years of cataclysmic magical struggle: he destroyed Akez Loradak which withstood the Darkness, Gbaji and the God Learners, and banished Only Old One to Hell for good.  All this is thanks to Eurmal.

If Eurmal had not murdered Only Old One's son, there might've been at least one other demigod in Akez Loradak, participating in the defense of Nochet and the Unity Battle--a younger demigod, not as scarred by the Great Darkness as his father, who might've been an active force on the Unity Council rather than its passive, honored elder statesman, as Ezkankekko became.  There were other figures like this murdered son of Ezkankekko in the First Age, a miracle child from impossible parents.  One of the founders of Dorastor in the second century, Gwalnykus the Good, was the grandson of a mostali and an aldryami, and he sired a child with one of the last Gold Wheel Spirits.  Ezkankekko's son could've been a figure like that, and we can't know what his influence might've done to change the tragic course of events that led to the Gbaji Wars.  What's more, this demigod son could've been what Ezkankekko truly needed: an heir.  We've already seen a process of succession at work in Akez Lordarak, with Argan Argar disappearing and Ezkankekko taking his place as lord of the Shadow Plateau.  If his demigod son had lived, Ezkankekko would've been able to do as his father did and abdicate when the toll of his duties and old sacrifices grew too great.  In my last big post I posited a submerged mythic lifecycle for Argan Argar: the translator/negotiator --> the ruler/warleader -->the elder/psychopomp.  With his son's murder Ezkankekko lost the heir he might have eventually abdicated to.  Without an heir there was no one he could pass on his end of the Shadow Tribute obligations to, even as his ability to deliver on his end of the obligations declined.  In the end he did not, like his father, abdicate the post of ruler to become the wizened elder: he had to be deposed by Belintar, while he clung on past his ability to fulfill his duties.

Beyond obliging Only Old One to soldier on long past when he should've retired, Eurmal's betrayal at Akez Loradak establishes a mythic weakness in Only Old One's defenses that future Orlanthi could exploit.  All the powers of Chaos could not gain entry to the Palace of Black Glass even when it lay abandoned, but someone welcomed in as a friend could simply enter the guarded spaces freely to wreak havoc. Ezkankekko would not be able to respond in full until after the damage was already done, and hospitality rights were voided.  I think this could be the source of the protection that enabled Hardros Hardslaughter and his comrades to turn on the Shadowlords and default on their side of the Shadow Tribute without facing the wrath of their own tribal guardians: trickster magic, sourced by Eurmali through this ancient betrayal-wound in Ezkankekko's power.  Eurmali would also be natural allies in a struggle to undermine Ezkankekko--the joy tricksters would get from humiliating a great old hero by twisting and rules-lawyering his own Equal Exchanges is self-evident. 

The God Learners who swamped so much of the old Kingdom of Night in the Imperial Age, to the dismay of the Kethaelan Heortlings, would've been nearly as adept as Eurmali at exploiting the same weaknesses--I would guess that Ezkankekko failed to intervene during the invasions from Slontos chiefly because the God Learners manipulated the old terms of the Shadow Tribute to declare and execute aggressions Ezkankekko could not lawfully oppose, by his own rules.  The glaring exception to this would be the Machine War against Zistor, which was fought as a Unity Battle, and to which Ezkankekko sent great champions and armies--probably because the effort to build the Machine God triggered clauses of the Shadow Tribute that more mundane God Learner imperialism avoided.  You can imagine how this series of betrayals and defeats would've weighed on Ezkankekko as the centuries stretched.  It's little wonder that he withdrew more and more from life outside his palace after the Gbaji Wars.  The Esrolians record that Belintar took up the accouterments of Kimantor in his temple at Nochet and made sacrifices to the shade of Ezkankekko.  Though many sources say that the trolls and Orlanthi of Kethaela remain bitter over Ezkankekko's death, I can't help but imagine that he's happy to finally be done as the Only Old One, and to have joined his father, his son, Norinel and his mortal children in Wonderhome.

So, hail Ezkankekko, damn Eurmal, and emotionally ambiguous applause for Belintar the God-King.  If you made it through all that text, thank you so much.

My next big post will be about the most significant way discussion in this thread has impacted the RuneQuest game that inspired me to start digging into Argan Argar myth in the first place: I will tell the story of how Ublagsh of the Blackwell, a dark troll warrior-initiate of Argan Argar, waged a Unity Battle at the Smoking Ruin.

Edited by dumuzid
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, dumuzid said:

So, open question: does anyone know of a more detailed source on Belintar's war to depose the Only Old One and create the Holy Country?  Especially anything on the level of the detailed (if incomplete) account of the Machine War in Heortling Peoples

There is nothing detailed to that level (unless something buried in Greg's notes that have never been published.) 

Do check out the Guide, p.237 and 245 though, particularly: "Belintar revealed that he had come to depose the Only Old One and liberate the land from Darkness. He did this through the process of mustering ancient allies on Heroquests and opposing the magical forces which aided the Only Old One. The process was long and difficult. The Hendrikings fought stubbornly for their old ally, the Only Old One, and Belintar killed their king in 1317. At one point, Belintar was slain and completely devoured. But in the end he succeeded. In 1318, Belintar met the Only Old One himself in combat and cast him down and cut him into pieces. Then he pulverized the Palace of Black Glass, covering all the Shadow Plateau with dense, heavy black sand which smothers most life...."

The little bit in Trollpak doesn't add anything particularly different.  There's a bit in the cult writeup of Argan Argar in there: "In a series of epic battles, stratagems, magics, and rebirths, the Pharaoh managed personal conflict with the Only Old One at last. The fighting shattered the wonderful castle of black glass built by Lodril, and at the end of the fight the Pharaoh crushed the body of the Only Old One into the earth. The dust from the castle now forms the treacherous black sandstorms of the Haunted Lands, and the Tarpit marks the site where the Only Old One was slain."

In terms of your text, since you're applying Hidden Text, I will in return.

 

Try making the simple connection of these two points:

1 hour ago, dumuzid said:

Ezkankekko rules Akez Loradak with an unnamed spouse or lover, who bears him an unnamed, demigod son.

1 hour ago, dumuzid said:

Ezkankekko weds Norinel under the name Kimantor;

Add in from Esrolia p.30: In the middle of winter, Norinel went into labor, and her mother and grandmother and sister and aunt and nice all came to help. Born then was Delargara, and everyone celebrated, and then to the astonishment of everyone (even the mother) came a twin, who was a boy and was named Desdel [“surprise”].

And you have the OOO's spouse and son named. 🙂

Edited by jajagappa
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

There is nothing detailed to that level (unless something buried in Greg's notes that have never been published.) 

Do check out the Guide, p.237 and 245 though, particularly: "Belintar revealed that he had come to depose the Only Old One and liberate the land from Darkness. He did this through the process of mustering ancient allies on Heroquests and opposing the magical forces which aided the Only Old One. The process was long and difficult. The Hendrikings fought stubbornly for their old ally, the Only Old One, and Belintar killed their king in 1317. At one point, Belintar was slain and completely devoured. But in the end he succeeded. In 1318, Belintar met the Only Old One himself in combat and cast him down and cut him into pieces. Then he pulverized the Palace of Black Glass, covering all the Shadow Plateau with dense, heavy black sand which smothers most life...."

The little bit in Trollpak doesn't add anything particularly different.  There's a bit in the cult writeup of Argan Argar in there: "In a series of epic battles, stratagems, magics, and rebirths, the Pharaoh managed personal conflict with the Only Old One at last. The fighting shattered the wonderful castle of black glass built by Lodril, and at the end of the fight the Pharaoh crushed the body of the Only Old One into the earth. The dust from the castle now forms the treacherous black sandstorms of the Haunted Lands, and the Tarpit marks the site where the Only Old One was slain."

In terms of your text, since you're applying Hidden Text, I will in return.

  Hide contents

Try making the simple connection of these two points:

Add in from Esrolia p.30: In the middle of winter, Norinel went into labor, and her mother and grandmother and sister and aunt and nice all came to help. Born then was Delargara, and everyone celebrated, and then to the astonishment of everyone (even the mother) came a twin, who was a boy and was named Desdel [“surprise”].

And you have the OOO's spouse and son named. 🙂

Thank you for these points, particularly the bit about there probably not being a published, detailed account of Belintar's conquest.  Does anyone know who the "ancient allies" were that the Guide describes Belintar winning with his heroquests?

I'm aware of Desdel though.  He and Delgara were just the first of many human children Kimantor and Norinel had while she lived.  Desdel's is one of those prominent Founder families of Nochet at the Dawn begun by Norinel's children with Kimantor, they have the hereditary duty of maintaining the Kimantor temple in Nochet.  Desdel and Delargara were born after Ezkankekko settled in Nochet with his troll followers, they would've been part of the exodus to Azek Lodarak before the Unity Battle--and to be a Founder, Desdel (or his children) must have made it back to Nochet after the Unity Battle to participate in the re-founding of the city.  There's no mention anywhere in Esrolia, in the very detailed version of the Battle of Nochet Unity Battle myth, of Desdel being seduced and murdered by Eurmal--and, well, Desdel'specific line certainly continued into Time, right up to the present day.  More to the point, there's no indication that Desdel, Delgara or even Norinel were demigods--Norinel was certainly a hero(ine) in life, and is worshiped as the Mother of the City in modern Nochet; but Desdel's descendants, though they've inherited priestly duties and priveleges, are in no way described as superhuman or divine in themselves.  I'm not convinced Desdel was Eurmal's victim.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Thank you for these points, particularly the bit about there probably not being a published, detailed account of Belintar's conquest.  Does anyone know who the "ancient allies" were that the Guide describes Belintar winning with his heroquests?

Probably the guardian gods and spirits of the various nations, like Veskarthen and Imjara.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Thank you for these points, particularly the bit about there probably not being a published, detailed account of Belintar's conquest.  Does anyone know who the "ancient allies" were that the Guide describes Belintar winning with his heroquests?

The Silver Age heroes, like Tessele the True, Vogarth Strongman, Amphibos the Wanderer, Panaxles and Sestarto. Possibly Martaler of the Blazing Forge.

I have my doubts about King Heort, and I am fairly certain that Belintar did not contact any dragonewts. His truce with Ironhoof follows his victory over the OOO, too.

 

8 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

I'm aware of Desdel though.  He and Delgara were just the first of many human children Kimantor and Norinel had while she lived. 

Desdel's is one of those prominent Founder families of Nochet at the Dawn begun by Norinel's children with Kimantor, they have the hereditary duty of maintaining the Kimantor temple in Nochet. 

I think your sequence of the events is off. Norinel and her people from Nochet are already in hiding in the Obsidian Palace when Orlanth goes onto his Lightbringer's Quest. I doubt though that she or any of her followers were that deep down in the Underworld when Orlanth arrived, and I have doubts about her son, too.

I am fairly certain that the son in question would have been a shape-changer like the (human- and troll-descended) Kitori learned to be. He would have been the royal ancestor of a people like the Only Old One (who probably was known by a different name before Eurmal slew his heir). The mother would have been a goddess or at least of similar demigod rank as Ezkankekko himself.

 

8 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Desdel and Delargara were born after Ezkankekko settled in Nochet with his troll followers, they would've been part of the exodus to Azek Lodarak before the Unity Battle--and to be a Founder, Desdel (or his children) must have made it back to Nochet after the Unity Battle to participate in the re-founding of the city. 

That's another possibility - that Desdel had fathered children unto (non-divine) women from Nochet, founding human lineages, before getting seduced by Eurmal. (Eurmal possibly posing as another Nochet beauty.)

 

8 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

There's no mention anywhere in Esrolia, in the very detailed version of the Battle of Nochet Unity Battle myth, of Desdel being seduced and murdered by Eurmal--and, well, Desdel'specific line certainly continued into Time, right up to the present day.  More to the point, there's no indication that Desdel, Delgara or even Norinel were demigods--Norinel was certainly a hero(ine) in life, and is worshiped as the Mother of the City in modern Nochet; but Desdel's descendants, though they've inherited priestly duties and priveleges, are in no way described as superhuman or divine in themselves.  I'm not convinced Desdel was Eurmal's victim.

 

Another possibility is that Kimantor was that son of the Only Old One. Is there any report of Kimantor returning to Nochet from Akez Loradak?

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Probably the guardian gods and spirits of the various nations, like Veskarthen and Imjara.

I think I just got the mythic paradigm Belintar was using to fight Ezkankekko.  And honestly, given what he did after, I'm kind of kicking myself for not seeing this earlier.  Letting my pro-troll biases get in the way I think.

Looking at it this way, I've got to reckon that Belintar waged a Unity Battle against Ezkankekko, and won.  That's some extremely bold heroquesting.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, dumuzid said:

Looking at it this way, I've got to reckon that Belintar waged a Unity Battle against Ezkankekko, and won.  That's some extremely bold heroquesting.

Very interesting thought! 

One thing that we do know that Belintar did was to "kill" the Hendriki king, chain/imprison "Larnste" (this can be seen in Prince of Sartar, but subtly noted in certain texts), and then brought back the Hendriki king from the dead (Andrin the "Zombie"). Clearly gaining control over the Rune of Change/Movement was an important precursor to such a battle as it likely ensured that not only Heortland was on his side, but that the Esrolians would support him (by removing the threat of a Vingkotling king).

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/18/2020 at 4:52 PM, Joerg said:

 

Thank you for making these points, I shall address them in order.

Quote

The Silver Age heroes, like Tessele the True, Vogarth Strongman, Amphibos the Wanderer, Panaxles and Sestarto. Possibly Martaler of the Blazing Forge.

I have my doubts about King Heort, and I am fairly certain that Belintar did not contact any dragonewts. His truce with Ironhoof follows his victory over the OOO, too.

Right, the roster of heroes who helped Ezkankekko form the Unity Counil.  What an odyssey of sorrow Belintar's war must have been: five years of these ancient, long-lost friends emerging from beyond Time to depose their former leader.  How horrible for them, as much as for Only Old One.  I agree on Heort: being unable to convince or master Heort through heroquesting would be a sound explanation for why Belintar was never quite able to win the Hendriki over during the conquest, leading to the whole 'Andrin the Zombie' affair.

 

I think your sequence of the events is off. Norinel and her people from Nochet are already in hiding in the Obsidian Palace when Orlanth goes onto his Lightbringer's Quest. I doubt though that she or any of her followers were that deep down in the Underworld when Orlanth arrived, and I have doubts about her son, too.

I appreciate your argument, and here are my counters.  First, from a source I hadn't seen when I made my big post about Eurmal, The Book of Drastic Resolutions: Darkness,

image.png.cf1fd7d0a93cbfbce95cb1c404744513.png (p. 80, from Heroes of the Night).

What I'd like to direct your attention to is the last sentence there: "Shortly after his birth his father (Argan Argar) left the Hurtplace (Surface) forever, and Ezkankekko took the position he is best known for, the second and final ruler of the Kingdom of Night."  This is a detail I haven't seen stated outright anywhere else, but it introduces the idea that Ezkankekko was ruler of the Shadow Plateau in his own right from near the start of the Greater Darkness.

This is particularly interesting when considered in reference to the Norinel and Kimantor and Battle of Nochet Esrolian myths, set later in the Greater Darkness.  From N&K, in Esrolia: Land of 10,000 Goddesses:

image.png.9e225ce7b91d3bff4a0f527e1edc6dae.png (p. 30)

Kimantor/Ezkankekko/OOO showed up to his wedding to Norinel dressed as a lord in what becomes the uniform of his Shadowlords and, most importantly surrounded by his uz followers.  N&K goes on to describe Kimantor's defense of Nochet in three wars against the demons of Chaos, each time supported by a larger and larger band of uz warriors and heroes.  The reasons that probably inspired Kimantor to seek this alliance are not not hard to find, if we page on to the Battle of Nochet myth:

image.png.6674adc4d56b6ed0888273577d9c3ed2.png(Esrolia p. 32)

The Diligent Workers are wild strains of bean, root and fruit tree that need little light to grow.  More to the point they're plants, not fungi: trolls' ancient friendship with the fungal Black Elves and their goddess Vee Morala would not have helped them to grow these things, which the humans of Nochet seem to have grown in sufficient volume to keep both the humans and uz alive.  We have already seen evidence that the Shadow Plateau trolls recall a time of starvation during the Greater darkness, when Ezkankekko allowed them to devour some of his substance to survive: 

image.png.25fecc03d03bd25d8c5753e6a06f9b43.png(TBoHM p. 134, right column)

but in the myth of N&K, just after the section I quoted earlier, we have this:
image.png.534a0b0c0ed0b758278556363d9b5b25.png(Esrolia p. 30)

"They were all fed, because Kimantor had a bucket from which he could pour as much porridge as he wanted, as long as he was true to all oaths taken."  A never-ending porridge bucket sounds like a wonder left behind by Esrola, but that caveat at the end of its description implies a condition before its bounty could be used in full.  This could be a reference to how Kimantor allowed himself to be 'sapped' to provide for his uz followers, or it could be describing magic inherited from his mother that could only be used as long as there was someone to give it to, as in there was someone to share Esrola's bounty with.  

Finally, near the climax of the Battle of Nochet myth we have the flight from Nochet to Akez Lodarak.  This is how that's described: 

image.png.c77c5b0d6331085995f67cbd0f54c285.png(Esrolia p. 32)

The humans and uz of Nochet had to sneak and fight their way up to Akez Lodarak, which apparently lay abandoned.  There's no long stay in safety, though: the paragraph that follows what I quoted above is the beginning of the Unity Battle.  There's no mention of a visit by the Lifebringers, no grim tale of visitors murdering one of Kimantor and Norinel's sons.  The Palace of Black Glass is probably not a place the Nochet refugees could've survived in long term, unless the managed to restart their low-light agriculture within its walls.  It was the place Kimantor and Norinel led their people to take shelter in when all hope of defending Nochet successfully failed, and was only a successful shelter because the bounty of Nochet, even in the Greater Darkness, created a surplus of supplies they could carry into the fortress.

Based on these findings and those discussed in my previous big post, here is my proposed chronology for Akez Lodarak, from the end of the Gods War through the Silver Age:

1) Argan Argar forces Lodril to raise Akez Lodarak; AA and Esrola rule Kethaela together.

2) The Darkness deepens; Esrola dies and Argan Argar departs--Ernalda dies around the same time; Ezkankekko takes his father's throne in Akez Lodarak, but claims authority over only the Shadow Plateau uz.  Some time not long after, Orlanth leaves on the Lifebringers Quest. 

3) Ezkankekko and an unnamed goddess or demigoddess rule Akez Lodarak and raise a son; in their long descent through the Underworld the Lifebringers find sanctuary in the Palace basements, and are invited up for hospitality; Eurmal's Betrayal occurs, and the Lifebringers are cast back out into the .

4) Alone, bereft, and grieving, Ezkankekko and his uz slowly starve behind the walls of Akez Lodarak as Chaos monsters fill the tunnels and crawl the surface, until he sacrifices some of his power to sustain them.  The renewed uz clear the tunnels, and allow communication with the outside world.

5) Kimantor first allies his nearest neighbors, the surviving Grandmothers of Nochet, to secure a sustainable food source for his uz in exchange for his protection of the city.  There is some indication of a migration of trolls out of the Shadow Plateau to Nochet itself, as well.  Marriage with Norinel enables the revival of Esrolian fertility magic that benefits both humans and uz.  As told in N&K, the temporary political marriage between Norinel and Kimantor blossoms into love and a long-term relationship, and several children are born from it who go on to found great--but entirely human, mortal--families of Nochet.

6) After many wars, Kimantor finally calls for the evacuation of Nochet in the face of overwhelming chaotic hordes.  His uz and Norinel's humans retake an abandoned Akez Lodarak, and Lord Victory Nightbrother begins the the missions that gather the Unity Army for the Battle of Nochet.

7) After the Unity Battle drives Chaos from Dragon Pass and Kethaela, Kimantor and Norinel lead their human followers and descendants down off the Shadow Plateau to refound Nochet.  Argan Argar and Esrola are among the gods who emerge from the Ritual of the Great Compromise to help bring the Dawn before receding into the Gods Realm.  Ezkankekko begins discussions with his allies in the Unity Army to formalize their cooperation into a Unity Council...

 

I am fairly certain that the son in question would have been a shape-changer like the (human- and troll-descended) Kitori learned to be. He would have been the royal ancestor of a people like the Only Old One (who probably was known by a different name before Eurmal slew his heir). The mother would have been a goddess or at least of similar demigod rank as Ezkankekko himself.

I agree with all this.  In the light (or shadow) of Eurmal's betrayal, Varzor Kitor and the Kitori seem like an effort by Ezkankekko to replace his lost child and all his lost promise.  Varzor was Ezkankekko's most favored student, his chief envoy to humans, even appointed the Unity Council's first general, the Lord Demon of Death, in their first war with the Shadzorings of Alkoth.  It highlights the sorrow behind one of Ezkankekko's acts, too: after the Tax Revolt, he released the Kitori from his service for good.  Maybe he lost his faith in humans.

 

That's another possibility - that Desdel had fathered children unto (non-divine) women from Nochet, founding human lineages, before getting seduced by Eurmal. (Eurmal possibly posing as another Nochet beauty.)

I haven't found any evidence one way or the other on how many children Desdel had, or when, but the fact that they exist rather point against Desdel being Eurmal's victim, don't they?  If Desdel's children were human, then it doesn't matter whether Eurmal killed him or not--his father's power didn't pass to Desdel by inheritance.  Once again I'd argue that this points to Ezkankekko sacrificing the part of himself that made his power heritable to sustain his uz followers during the starving times.  Didn't matter whether he remarried and had other kids later in the Darkness, it was no longer in him to make a divine dynasty.

 

Another possibility is that Kimantor was that son of the Only Old One. Is there any report of Kimantor returning to Nochet from Akez Loradak?

Ah, this we can resolve fairly easily.  

image.png.cf36d0bbc570c934b6a57d7ec977c1ba.png(Esrolia, p. 8 )

There was no ambiguity over the identity of Kimantor in Dawn Age Nochet.  He was Ezkankekko, the Only Old One, the Unity Hero, Father of the City.  Their professional army received its orders direct from Akez Lodarak for almost 600 years after the dawn.

Thank you again for raising your questions and counter-proposals!  I have enjoyed addressing them tremendously, and would welcome more!  Though I think I have made a solid case here, with the available materials.

As mentioned at the end of my last big post, the next big one will be about how these discussions have informed my RuneQuest: Glorantha game.  Or, How Ublagsh Waged the Unity Battle of the Smoking Ruin.

 

image.png

Edited by dumuzid
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

I haven't found any evidence one way or the other on how many children Desdel had, or when, but the fact that they exist rather point against Desdel being Eurmal's victim, don't they?  If Desdel's children were human, then it doesn't matter whether Eurmal killed him or not--his father's power didn't pass to Desdel by inheritance. 

Nor is there anything that says that Desdel had any children. I intended the existence of a House in Nochet called Desdelaeo to be as much of a mystery as Desdel's own birth. May have come from a child of his sister and be named in his honor instead of descended from him. Or maybe, surprise! Desdel did have a child. Or, one could ask why Desdel was a surprise? Maybe Desdel is Eurmal pretending to be the son of OOO, and the "killing" of Desdel is Eurmal simply unmasking himself.... Or any number of other Godtime possibilities. 

1 hour ago, dumuzid said:

Based on these findings and those discussed in my previous big post, here is my proposed chronology for Akez Lodarak, from the end of the Gods War through the Silver Age

The problem though with a "Chronology" in the Godtime, is that we're dealing with an age of myth where there is no Time. I can equally quest into the Godtime and "prove" that the "unnamed" son and Desdel are in fact the same. You can actually think of this as a curse upon the OOO, and perhaps this is part of the magical rite that Belintar performed as the consequence is that there is no successor to the OOO within Time.

Now, having noted that, I'll also say that there is nothing incorrect or illogical to what you've written, and it should work fine to develop a myth/story from. But the Godtime has many Truths... And many of them can change!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Nor is there anything that says that Desdel had any children. I intended the existence of a House in Nochet called Desdelaeo to be as much of a mystery as Desdel's own birth. May have come from a child of his sister and be named in his honor instead of descended from him. Or maybe, surprise! Desdel did have a child. Or, one could ask why Desdel was a surprise? Maybe Desdel is Eurmal pretending to be the son of OOO, and the "killing" of Desdel is Eurmal simply unmasking himself.... Or any number of other Godtime possibilities. 

There is this evidence that Desdel had children:

image.png.9c2c5cea658888be086fc8b4a1ce15a4.png(Esrolia, p. 30)

Now we could quibble over the possibility that the Desdel priestly family have just claimed the name, or the second generation of the family were adoptees of Desdel rather than blood descendants, all fair conjectures, but Esrolia is as much about mythic Esrolia as it's about Esrolia within Time, I think we can take as read that a family called after Desdel was present in re-founded Nochet in the Silver Age and probably the Dawn, though I don't know of any evidence showing how far they survived past the Dawn.  I think the hereditary dedication to keeping up the Kimantor temple at Nochet speaks volumes too, because whatever Desdel's personal qualities, that mention in Esrolia is one of the only places he appears.  He wasn't a Silver Age Hero, he wasn't on the Unity Council, he doesn't show up in such accounts as we have of big doings in Genertela in the Dawn Age.  He was probably high priest of Ezkankekko's hero cult among humans during his lifetime, which probably made him the commander of the Kimantorings at Nochet, but...a lifetime of worshiping your demigod father, whose full legacy you were incapable of fulfilling?  I mean, there's no mention anywhere of Desdel or Delagara, or any other of Norinel's children by Kimantor, exhibiting his shapeshifting or any other powerful inborn manifestation of Harmony magic.  By far the most successful and powerful of Ezkankekko's children is the one he definitely adopted, Varzor Kitor.  It's one thing to be a shadowlord, as the hereditary priest of Kimantor at Nochet almost certainly was, but to spend your whole life overshadowed by the legacy of your father (and, potentially, a dead sibling you never knew)?  That's heavy, tragic stuff.  Whoever he really was, Desdel was probably an interesting guy.

As for a House Desdelaeo in Nochet, what does that appear in?  I can only find Samastina's House Delaeos, in the Glorantha Sourcebook, which almost certainly takes its name from Delaeo, one of Asrelia's Six Daughters.

 

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The problem though with a "Chronology" in the Godtime, is that we're dealing with an age of myth where there is no Time. I can equally quest into the Godtime and "prove" that the "unnamed" son and Desdel are in fact the same. You can actually think of this as a curse upon the OOO, and perhaps this is part of the magical rite that Belintar performed as the consequence is that there is no successor to the OOO within Time.

Now, having noted that, I'll also say that there is nothing incorrect or illogical to what you've written, and it should work fine to develop a myth/story from. But the Godtime has many Truths... And many of them can change!

 

Oh, I agree emphatically, that's why I usually preface any proposed chain of events with some variation "chronology is an illusion in the God Time."  But while strict chronology isn't true in the God Time, and achronological movement is possible, there are still relationships that facilitate these paths of travel.  That's the whole basis of Arkati heroquesting, finding these points of connection and using them to move contrary to the established, traditional flow of events.  What I proposed is, as you say, a tradition for arranging a course of events in Greater Darkness Azek Lodarak and Nochet: specifically, it is a mythological scheme composed to incorporate the Lifebringers Quest as we have it from Heortling Mythology and the Norinel & Kimantor and Battle of Nochet myths as we have them from Esrolia in the same mythic complex.  

It could be performed by paired teams of questers and helpers in Kerofinela and Kethaela, or a composite group from those places (or a group resembling those themes and relationships etc.), for a variety of ends related to strengthening themselves against a mutual threat.  The final scene of the heroquest would be a final meeting between the divine families: Argan Argar, Esrola, and Ezkankekko to one side; Orlanth, Ernalda, and Eurmal to the other.  I'm not sure how the story ends, but there's definitely one ending where Orlanth reveals OOO's murdered son, returned from the Underworld, restored in ransom for Eurmal's violation of hospitality.  There may even be a version of the quest that proves Belintar was Only Old One's son all along, come to prove his right to the throne, in a renewal of the Arthurian overtones to Argan Argar's defeat of Lodril I discussed upthread.  The write-up for Ezkankekko's hero cult in Drastic Resolutions: Darkness definitely frames Belintar's conquest in terms of Ezkankekko testing him until he was certain the stranger was worthy to be his successor.

Edited by dumuzid
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, dumuzid said:

There is this evidence that Desdel had children:

image.png.9c2c5cea658888be086fc8b4a1ce15a4.png(Esrolia, p. 30)

Now we could quibble over the possibility that the Desdel priestly family have just claimed the name, or the second generation of the family were adoptees of Desdel rather than blood descendants, all fair conjectures, but Esrolia is as much about mythic Esrolia as it's about Esrolia within Time, I think we can take as read that a family called after Desdel was present in re-founded Nochet in the Silver Age and probably the Dawn

Ah, yes! Forgot about that note!  And the Desdelaeo House are certainly present before the Dawn.

1 hour ago, dumuzid said:

As for a House Desdelaeo in Nochet, what does that appear in?

It appears in the Nochet map, which you can find here: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/to-sort-categorise/nochet-city-of-queens/

SW part of the city.

Also check out bottom of page 1 of this thread where I posted the list of the 20 Enfranchised Houses of Nochet: 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, dumuzid said:

The write-up for Ezkankekko's hero cult in Drastic Resolutions: Darkness definitely frames Belintar's conquest in terms of Ezkankekko testing him until he was certain the stranger was worthy to be his successor.

While interesting to read through, the Drastic books are not ones that you should take any reliance on - along with any of the HQ1 vintage material there's just a lot of non-canonical stuff there. It's often very difficult or impossible to tease out what Greg's ideas were and what were wild tangents.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

So, I said my next big post would be about a Unity Battle staged in-game, and that's true, but before that I have I another thing.  Events in that game, and a post on these boards pointing out that the Black Horses of Black Horse County are technically just a kind of embodied Underworld spirit, gave my an idea.  Introducing a friend to Six Ages recently also played a role.

For whoever's perusal, I present: "Horses for Uz, an Argan Argar myth of the Storm Age"       horses for uz.pdf

 

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/21/2020 at 2:28 AM, jajagappa said:

While interesting to read through, the Drastic books are not ones that you should take any reliance on - along with any of the HQ1 vintage material there's just a lot of non-canonical stuff there. It's often very difficult or impossible to tease out what Greg's ideas were and what were wild tangents.

The wild tangents often are the most interesting 😁

Now, Greg & the Wild Tangents, that's a great name for a Hunting and Waltzing Band! 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

So, something I noticed while thumbing through the Sourcebook that no one's mentioned here:

image.png.423a5658466caa961067a27656a2777e.png

Tolat meaning Shargash, of course.  So Shargash and Annilla are supposed to be Yelm's children by Xentha?  Yelm and Xentha conceived Shargash in the Underworld?  Does anyone know of a source for the origins of Tolat and Annilla?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...