Time and tithes

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Out of general confusion (as in this question), a desire for simplicity, and not wanting to be bothered with math nitpicking, and, frankly, realism "you must immediately evaluate that magic item, what's its exact net present value in 1625 era lunars?" our group uses this rule:

No tithing 10% on your first cult.  The GM just "slightly lowers" some of the loot, and assumes it balances out.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 7/6/2020 at 7:50 AM, Kloster said:

Another related question: On which part of the character's income does the tithing apply? Professional income (I think yes, but see later for priests and rune lords)? Land income (not sure because 10% is already taken by Orlanth cult and 10% by Ernalda cult)? Income paid by a cult to it's Priests and Rune lords (seems absurd, because the cult is supposed to pay for the standard of living of it's priests)? Adventuring (for lack of a better word) income (I say yes)? Gifts (I don't know, but see all the posts above)? Ransom (I would say that the whole ransom is going to the clan/guild/family)?

IMHO

Professional income? Yes.  From the "after adventure" section of RQG, that looks clear.

Land income? Yes.  Nor does your cult take 10% of  the net after those, because isn't your other cult equal to Orlanth's?  Surely you as a good supporter will say yes and pay 10% of the gross income.  Dissenters will be visited by a Spirit of Reprisal..

Income paid by the cult: Yes, it's just like in our real world social security is taxable at least up to a point even though it is paid by the government. 

Adventuring? Yes of course, as a player your income is basically adventuring income. 

Gifts? Yes because that may not be distinguishable from adventuring income.  You adventure, do well, the chieftain or the duke 'gives' you weapons, an arm ring.... lots of non cash income there.  The United States is interested in your cash income but that's not a practical rule for a predominantly non-cash economy as in Glorantha.  After all "bronze age' implies a time before and when coinage was invented.

Ransom you receive, yes.  Ransom you pay, no, that's a loss.  It can be deducted from your income for the year.  See line 12,  Gloranthan Revenue Service form 1040.

The real issue is whether tithes are paid annually, or seasonally.

Clearly the great need in this game is for someone to draw up a Gloranthan form 1040 and accompanying instructions.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling! & clarification of clumsy wording.

[Kloster]

9 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Income paid by the cult: Yes, it's just like in our real world social security is taxable at least up to a point even though it is paid by the government. 

This one bother's me because that means that the cult is not giving enough to the priests they are supposed to support: A priest income is at least 5 hides of land (=160L per year). As priests pay 90% tithing, remain 16L per year to pay for a noble lifestyle (200L/year), and the priest is supposed to be supported by the cult.

9 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Professional income? Yes.  From the "after adventure" section of RQG, that looks clear.

Agreed, but that makes the priest stupid.

9 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Land income? Yes.  Nor does your cult take the net after those, because isn't your other cult equal to Orlanth's?  Surely you as a good supporter will say yes.  Dissenters will be visited by a Spirit of Reprisal..

OK.

9 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Adventuring? Yes of course, as a player your income is basically adventuring income. 

Of course, no problem on this.

9 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Gifts? Yes because that may not be distinguishable from adventuring income.  You adventure, do well, the chieftain or the duke 'gives' you weapons, an arm ring.... lots of non cash income there.  The United States is interested in your cash income but that's not a practical rule for a predominantly non-cash economy as in Glorantha.  After all "bronze age' implies a time before and when coinage was invented.

Money came to our world circa 3000BC, well into bronze age. And as I have understood (from Riskland Campaign), you bring everything to the head of clan, that gives you back minus 'taxes and tithing', so the gifts have already their tithing paid.

9 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Ransom you receive, yes.  Ransom you pay, no, that's a loss.  It can be deducted from your income for the year.  See line 15,  Gloranthan Revenue Service form 1040.

Of course, I was speaking of ransom received, not paid.

[Austin]

4 minutes ago, Kloster said:

This one bother's me because that means that the cult is not giving enough to the priests they are supposed to support: A priest income is at least 5 hides of land (=160L per year). As priests pay 90% tithing, remain 16L per year to pay for a noble lifestyle (200L/year), and the priest is supposed to be supported by the cult.

My understanding is that it's like, the priest gives over 144L, and then looks at all the cult funds, and determines that they need 200L from the pot to pay for their livelihood because they're the priest and they're in charge (or have a very large say) in determining where that goes.

[Kloster]

12 minutes ago, Crel said:

My understanding is that it's like, the priest gives over 144L, and then looks at all the cult funds, and determines that they need 200L from the pot to pay for their livelihood because they're the priest and they're in charge (or have a very large say) in determining where that goes.

What we have decided is that the occupation income has to pay tithing except for the priests. We are not sure if this is the intent, but this is the only way we found working.

[GAZZA]

In a practical sense, isn't all we're really interested in is "how much money do the PCs have to spend?" As such, the idea that priests and rune lords have less than initiates is a bit, well, weird. I'm not really sure that the whole tithing thing really adds much to the game - and even less to the world building (case in point: Storm Khans. They have the same tithing requirements as any Rune Lord has, but then it says they can go around and direct how that money gets spent since they rule the religion. So what exactly have we achieved here except some meaningless accounting?)

Honestly if you just sort of ignore the money and time requirements for Rune levels very little is lost. About the only thing they are reasonable controls for is stopping PCs from having 20 cults at once, but there are other more reasonable ways to do that.

[MJ Sadique]

  Why bothering yourself with all these considerations ... !? 🙄

-Eurmali advice : Most gods don't care about tithes and as long your are praying on holy day an sacred time, you're ok with the gods and fù*** the priest !

 

On 6/7/2020 at 12:21 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Are tithes supposed to be incurred on all items given to PCs? Or just the work stuff done? So, if a clan chief gives a nice armband as thanks, is the supposed to be included in the tithe (by some other means)?

For the cult, just follow an old army rule : Don't Ask, don't tell !
-About your land income : you cannot hide it so pay as much as your neighbour does. He tell having bad harvest, So you do
-Something you gain in an adventure : its' a "Gift of the gods", why botherinng paying them back ?
-The chief give you something : does the priest want to fight with him ? no, so tax free
-The gods/priest give you something : Does the chief want to anger the gods ? no, so tax free too !

On 6/7/2020 at 12:21 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Also, if the clan leader (or similar) sends you out on some sort of mission (e.g., Smoking Ruins), is that counted as time spent serving the cult (given how closely it ties in with daily community life)?

For the cult, just follow an old army rule : always get your a ticket for you expanse !
-About the time you spend for the cult : merely a negotiation with the most sympathetic priest of the cult...
-About the time you spend for the clan : merely a negotiation with the most sympathetic member of the clan circle (with a good minlister bottle or a clearwine aged in cherry barrel)
-About the time you spend for the clan and the cult : Double negotiation, get a reward from the clan and time deduction from the cult

Don't bother you with rules, YOU ARE ORLANTHI not a god-damned brithini following all the rules one by one !!!

Are you an Proud Orlanthi or cheeky mongrel of aeolian praying a god-no-one-can-see-him ?

Orlanthi have big mouth, forgive themself fast and empty pocket ... so never forget the "sorry priest, I will pay you next year... pinky promise because today I'm broke 😛

 

PS: I personally hate Orlanthi and most orlanthi greatest hero don't really fit the orlanth model (Harmast, Sartar, Argrath ... only brains people in a land of savages !... poor them ! 🤣)

[Akhôrahil]

On 6/7/2020 at 12:21 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Also, if the clan leader (or similar) sends you out on some sort of mission (e.g., Smoking Ruins), is that counted as time spent serving the cult (given how closely it ties in with daily community life)?

Surely it must? Otherwise Wind Lords or Swords couldn't possibly meet their 90% time requirement.

[Akhôrahil]

10 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

PS: I personally hate Orlanthi and most orlanthi greatest hero don't really fit the orlanth model (Harmast, Sartar, Argrath ... only brains people in a land of savages !... poor them ! 🤣)

This is interesting - who would the most traditionalist major Orlanthi heroes be? I'm thinking Alakoring, Vargast Redhand (slayer of Loko Moko), Garundyer...?

[Austin]

17 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is interesting - who would the most traditionalist major Orlanthi heroes be? I'm thinking Alakoring, Vargast Redhand (slayer of Loko Moko), Garundyer...?

Broyan? I feel like he gets a bit overlooked in RuneQuest—his real moment of glory is the skipped period between 1621 and 1625—but it seems to me that the raw narrative is something like "Broyan was great, Broyan was the Vingkotling, Broyan's gonna kill Shepelkirt and save Orlanth—whups, he's dead now, who's next?" Broyan was the obvious savior, but he fails, and dies, and doesn't return. So we're stuck with Argrath.

There's an important part in the Glorantha Sourcebook (which I think was somewhere in KoS as well) along the lines of "Only Argrath brought new ideas."

[MJ Sadique]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is interesting - who would the most traditionalist major Orlanthi heroes be? I'm thinking Alakoring, Vargast Redhand (slayer of Loko Moko), Garundyer...?

Oh yeah Garundyer, I had almost forgotten him ... when I start RQ in the 90' he was the model Orlanthi in Genertela RQ3 book. I still remember the old school illustration : ...

Old School but still impacting !

 

But by the way, when speaking about Orlanthi Heroes, I mean the one who had succeed in the greatest Orlanth Quest : The Lightbringers Quest (even if Orlanth didn't do anything great apart from creating problem and barely helping saving the situation... that all Orlanthi common trait and curse 😜).

[Squaredeal Sten]

While drafting Orlanthi form 1040, it occurred to me that skill increases and spells learned are not titheable.  Only physical income is titheable.

 

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

Here is my first draft of Orlanthi form 1040.   Your assistance in proofreading is requested.

This covers only income and tithing.   Tax obligations for Orlanthi in the Lunar Empire must be calcuated separately.  😀

Orlanthi Form 1040 draft 1          

For year _____________________

Name    _______ ___________________  □Son/□Daughter of ________________

Tribe, City  ____________________

Clan or House __________

1Check boxes for Cults;   check boxes  you are initiate or higher level in:, check only one box per line

1A Orlanth  □                     Initiate  □             God-Talker□       Rune priest/Lord□

1B Ernalda □                       Initiate  □             God-Talker□      Rune priest/Lord□

1C. Issaries                          Initiate  □                                             Rune priest/Lord□

2. Other cults:         

2A. ______________□             Initiate  □          God-Talker□   Rune priest/Lord□

2B. _____________   □                Initiate  □             God-Talker□   Rune priest/Lord□

2C.   _____________ □                Initiate  □             God-Talker□   Rune priest/Lord□

3. Agricultural income after applying effects of Omens, Weather, Raids etc. ___________

4. Multiply line 3 by 20% _______________

5. Subtract line 4 from line 3 and enter result here __________________

6 Multiply line 4 by ½ and enter in spaces 6A and 6B                         6A _________

                                                                                                                                6B _________

7 Professional income from trades, skills other than agriculture after applying  effects of Omens, Weather, Raids etc.                                                                                      ___________

8. Adventuriing income:                A. Cash  _________________

                                                                B. Trinkets _______________

                                                                C. Weapons and armor captured and retained ________

                                                                D. Magic items captures and retained ___________

                                                                E. Miscellaneous: Potions, scrolls etc. _____________

9. Total lines 7 through 8E:                           Total Non-Ag Employment income; ________________

10. Ransoms you paid ____________

11. Ransoms you received ___________

12. Net Ransom income: Subtract line 10 from line from line 11:  ____________________

13. Net Income: Total lines 5, 9 and 12:                                   ____________________

 

Tithe calculation:

14. Total number of Initiate boxes checked (add 1 if you are an Issaries rune level)  ______

15. Total number of God-Talker boxes checked _____

16. Total number of Rune priest/Lord boxes checked  on  lines 1A,1B, 2 A through C ______

17. If line 16 is greater than 0, Multiply line 13 by 90% else enter 0  _______

18  Subtract line 17 from line 13 _______

19.  If line 16 is greater than 1 subtract 1 from line 16 and enter the result here, else enter 0 _____

20.  If line 19 is greater than 0 multiply 10% times line 18 and enter the result here, else enter 0 _____

21. Add lines 17 and 19 _____________

22. Subtract line 21 from line 13 ___________

23.  if line 15 is greater than 0, multiply line 21 by 50% and enter the result here, else enter 0 ________

24. Subtract line 23  from line 21 ____________

25. Multiply line 14 times 10%  _________

26, Multiply line 25 by line 24 ________

27.  Total Tithe:  Total lines 4, 21,23, and 26  _______. PAY this to your temple(s).

28.  Subtract line 27 from line 13: this is your character’s net income after tithing ______

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Squaredeal Sten
trying to remove blank spce, no luck

[Lordabdul]

Hahaha awesome. To feel more authentic it needs some questions like:

• Were you or any member of your stead living on Wulfsland property between Dark Season 1924 and Earth Season 1925?
  • If you replied "YES" for the previous question, do you wish to allocate part of your tithing to the Telmori Land Reclamation? If yes, enter the percentage: ____
• If you or any member of your stead shelter any Duck between Dark Season 1924 and Earth Season 1925, you may be eligible for a tithe credit under the Beast Folk Accords. Please attach form 892-B
• Did you make any contributions to political parties in the past tithing period? If so, you may deduct those from your tithable income:
  • Leika Blackspear: _____
  • Kallyr Starbrow: ____
  • Argrath White Bull: ____
  • Other: _____
• Did you make any charity contributions in the past tithing period? If so, you may deduct those from your tithable income:
  • Chalana Arroy Cult: ____
  • Jonstown Library Restoration Society: ____
  • Dundealos Relocation Support Program: ____
  • Other: ____

Edited July 8, 2020 by lordabdul

[MJ Sadique]

  

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Here is my first draft of Orlanthi form 1040.   Your assistance in proofreading is requested.

This covers only income and tithing.   Tax obligations for Orlanthi in the Lunar Empire must be calcuated separately.  😀

Orlanhti Form 1040 draft 1          

For year _____________________
Name    _______ ___________________  □Son/□Daughter of ________________
Tribe, City  ____________________
Clan or House __________

...

28.  Subtract line 27 from line 13: this is your character’s net income after tithing : ______

First it's an "Orlanhti" tax form, So any Orlanthi are not concerned by it 🙃. Second Apart form LM, no one can read, this year tax will be negociate by the biggest sword... and third : it's unreadable 😱.

PS : Sten, Are you from IRS ? Or initiate of some tax lunar goddess ? If not, you should. I detect a real talent in this carrier (NO i'm not trolling 😛, it's a constructive talk). And please, do some SHIFT + ENTER to economise space between lines...

[Kloster]

I, being french, am not accustomed to form 1040, but frankly, yours is so close to what I had to fill 2 years ago that I had trouble to stop laughing. Thanks Sten for this moment.

[Austin]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

I, being french, am not accustomed to form 1040, but frankly, yours is so close to what I had to fill 2 years ago that I had trouble to stop laughing.

Clearly, this is evidence that Tradetalk is not only the language of commerce, but also the language of bureaucracy. Truly a universal tongue.

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

 PS : Sten, Are you from IRS ? Or initiate of some tax lunar goddess ? If not, you should. I detect a real talent in this carrier (NO i'm not trolling 😛, it's a constructive talk). And please, do some SHIFT + ENTER to economise space between lines...

MJ, no, I never worked for IRS.  My wife did briefly before I met her, and my sister in law retired from IRS.  Neither of them had input into the Orlanthi form.

I'm glad you enjoyed my parody.    It was meant to be functional, though: Try it out!

And of course for the illiterate 95% of Gloranthan society, your local Lhankor Mhy already recorded your crops and will stand by to assist you with your tithe reporting needs at the standard price for writing letters.   But perhaps I can design a short form for those who are not adventurers and are lay members of cults.

 

 

 

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

MJ, no, I never worked for IRS.  My wife did briefly before I met her, and my sister in law retired from IRS.  Neither of them had input into the Orlanthi form.

I'm glad you enjoyed my parody.    It was meant to be functional, though: Try it out!

And of course for the illiterate 95% of Gloranthan society, your local Lhankor Mhy already recorded your crops and will stand by to assist you with your tithe reporting needs at the standard price for writing letters.   But perhaps I can design a short form for those who are not adventurers and are lay members of cults.

 

 

 

Actually, that's a *really* important point!!! It's *Initiates* and above who are required to pay their time and tithes, not the laity... And it's already been established that the rank of Initiate.and above isn't that high in Orlanthi culture. So, who's paying for the Priests and Rune Lords??? (Other than spell teaching....)

I doubt there's enough Initiates for a the cults that have a priest (or 3!) except in the bigger towns.

(Eg, how many Ernaldan priestesses in Clearwine? All of whom need to be paid for...)

[Shiningbrow]

On 7/7/2020 at 2:29 AM, Fedman Kassad said:

The one thing that is clear to me is that the Tithe has to be given immediately!

For as we all know...  "Time and Tithe Wait for No Man"

What about ducks?

And Ernaldans? 

[Lordabdul]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Actually, that's a *really* important point!!! It's *Initiates* and above who are required to pay their time and tithes, not the laity... And it's already been established that the rank of Initiate.and above isn't that high in Orlanthi culture. So, who's paying for the Priests and Rune Lords??? (Other than spell teaching....)

I thought we already established that most Orlanthi are initiates in at least one cult? So pretty much everybody is giving money to a temple.

Also, don't forget cults do skill teaching. I imagine it is probably the biggest other revenue besides tithing. Spell teaching is probably more uncommon.

Quote

(Eg, how many Ernaldan priestesses in Clearwine? All of whom need to be paid for...)

According to Sartar Companion, there are ~425 female adults in Clearwine... An overwhelming majority of these (85%) would for example tithe to the Ernalda cult. The Earth Temple near Clearwine, the biggest one in Sartar, has between 12 and 20 priestesses... no indication of how many are initiates vs devotees, but I imagine Rune-level priestesses might make between a third and half of that number. But hey, even if all the temple staff needs to be paid for, that's, on average, 16 priestesses. With 425*85%=361 people tithing to this temple at 10% each, that's enough to pay for 36 priestesses full time at the average local living wage. Add the tithing of the Ernaldan initiates of the surrounding lands, the Earth temple "donations", the training income, and so on... I think they're doing pretty well, even if you lower the amount of initiates in the general population in favour of simple lay members (you could probably go as high as half of that 85% of women being lay members, and still come up with positive accounting).

Edited July 9, 2020 by lordabdul

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I thought we already established that most Orlanthi are initiates in at least one cult? So pretty much everybody is giving money to a temple.

Also, anyone who's farming land (20% tax, presumably 10% to each temple) regardless of initiate status. You need to be a non-initiate non-farmer in order to get away from it. That's, what, 10% of the population?

Edited July 9, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Lordabdul]

12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also, anyone who's farming land (20% tax, presumably 10% to each temple) regardless of initiate status.

Yeah that's what I meant by Earth temple "donations"... in the Red Cow clan, out of 1500 people total, 330 are carls who farm their own land. That's around 30 persons' worth of wages also going to the various Earth temples in the tula.

[Shiningbrow]

On 7/9/2020 at 3:14 PM, lordabdul said:

I thought we already established that most Orlanthi are initiates in at least one cult? So pretty much everybody is giving money to a temple.

Ummm, I thought not.

They are "initiates" of the clan and tribe, but I thought that "Initiation" (big I) into the cult were much lower numbers. Granted, Orlanthi are much more likely to be Initiated, but not sure where your 85% comes from. (And. Even then, whether it's big I or little i)

(P269 '"Most who belong to a cult are late members").

Regardless, Ernalda is a huge cult, and my example would have been better server by using a different cult... 

[Lordabdul]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

They are "initiates" of the clan and tribe, but I thought that "Initiation" (big I) into the cult were much lower numbers. Granted, Orlanthi are much more likely to be Initiated, but not sure where your 85% comes from. (And. Even then, whether it's big I or little i)

(P269 '"Most who belong to a cult are late members").

There's a difference between "most members of a cult are lay members" and "most people are lay members of a cult". The first one is cult-centric, the second is population-centric. Many people who are Initiates of a cult are also lay members of a few sub-cults and/or associated cults (Orlanthi Initiates also doing lay-member worship of Barntar and such) so that doubles or triples (or more) the cult attendance and, yes, indeed, in the end, the cult has more lay members than Initiates.

My 85% is the "Orlanthi All", as in "most women are initiates of Ernalda". So I took the number of adult women in Clearwine and multiplied that by 0.85. If you consider that only a fraction of the population are Initiates of any cult and that, say, a third of them are just lay members and have zero Rune Points (in RQ terms), then you can multiply the result again by that factor for your own Glorantha. That's what I meant by that very last sentence in my post: even if you go as high as "half the people in Clearwine are only lay members", that would still be enough to pay for 18 full time priestesses in the local Earth temple... just with the town's tithing. If your Glorantha however as an even lower Initiate membership (lower than a third of the population), then you have to start cutting down on a lot more on magic, and make your Glorantha less "magical" and more like real-world Bronze Age... so a lot less magical buffing when going to war, less healing when you come back, less blessed pregnancies and crops, etc. In some ways it's also cool, as it means there's a social strata forming where the privileged get magic that other don't.

Edited July 10, 2020 by lordabdul