Your Dumbest Theory

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Birds are just a subset of dinosaurs. How do dragonewts stand in relation to dinosaurs? (OK, there is the Guide, pp. 79 & 80.)

According to the God Learners all animals are descended from the Energy Bird (the phoenix?) and/or the twin dragons Hykim and Mikyh. Gloranthan taxonomy and heredity may work differently from ours, though.

The stuff about the energy bird comes from the Brithini, BTW, although the sentiment might be shared by the Vrimak followers. There are various first flyers in the Brithini scheme, however, and a namesake of Vrimak comes as one of the ancestors of animal mobility (according to the Zzaburist taxonomy in Anaxial's Roster).

Dinosaurs in Glorantha are a subgroup of Earth Shakers. So were the Dara Happan gazzam.

Earth Shakers are (or were) the huge ambulatory beasts beloved by Maran Gor that came furred, feathered, scaled, and presumably with mucous skin as well. Their integumen suggests other elemental associations.

Dinosaurs resulting from aberrational behavior of warrior dragonewts should come in the scaled variety like their previous incarnations, just like the Magisaurs (who are failed scout dragonewts). Tailed priests start developing frills that might resemble certain types of feathers, but not the warriors. (And winged priests sport wings with skin between bones rather than feathered wings. I cannot exactly class them as either chiroptera or pterodactyls as these wings don't develop from hands.)

I am rather certain that neither Vrimak nor Avarnia have any dinos in their ancestry, and even more certain that there were no failed warrior dragonewts they would have called ancestors. The official God Learner stance might be Aether and Mikyh for Vrimak, although Vrimak also gets "born" or released as one of the portions of Yelm as the result of Rebellus Terminus slaying the Solar Emperor.

The "fluffy gazzam" model for Dara Happa is my personal interpretation, to make them fit into the celestial descent model of the initial solar peoples and companions for the celestial brothers.

[Joerg]

  

4 minutes ago, Eff said:

Horse - the sun moves in a line, tirelessly.

Eagle - the sun is up in the air.

Lion - the sun is surrounded by a golden mane. 

All are conventionally regal or at least noble animals. The most interesting part to me is that there's myths of saving horses and killing lions all over Genertela. The ancient ones are no matter- I'm sure it won't surprise anyone to hear that Tada, Orlanth, and Oslira are in an exclusive club together.  But some are dated to clock-time. What did Hrestol do by skinning Penda? How is that related to the local experience of the Sun? 

I guess I get the solar horse connection for the Scythians and their Pontic Steppe ancestors, although the wind connection in poetic descriptions of the horse are strong, too.

In Glorantha, the wandering sun has been declared a mythical anomaly in light of the myth-defining Golden Age with its ongoing Sunstop. But I am tending more and more to regard that as a local experience of a sun-like orb above the central cultic place (temple of Harono, Kero Fin, the Footstool, Flamal's Tree at Hrelar Amali, or Yamsur's tower overlooking Eol) while there is another orb defining the Sunpath and the cycle of days (if only jumping back across the world, like Lightfore still does).

Myth is not only timeless, it also tends to happen Here (wherever here is), at least the good times of one's pantheon, and other people's Here will merge with yours as you encounter them on the Hero Plane.

 

In Greg's stories, I believe Hrestol never attacked Basmol directly - his counterstrike against the Pendali warlords that had besieged one of Froalar's lesser fortress-cities had been successful until his forces eager to strike down the fleeing Pendali were thwarted by Ifftala's earth magic. Hrestol was peeved out of reasonal proportions, underwent introspection until he received a book on mastering all the castes from his ancestor Malkion, and set out to achieve this in order to strike down that goddess that dared to ruin his triumphant slaughter of the lion-men. (Later on he had a beef with the bull men of Fronela, but I haven't seen much in the way of details about that episode.)

Greg did a short story about Basmol encountering the horse, and the horse fleeing in terror, cursing all of his descendants to be unable to ride horses. Which is a bit ironic considering that the Serpent King kingdom of Seshnela had about as many inhabitants from Pendali kingdoms (well, fortress temple city-states with outlying lesser strongholds) as they had descended from Brithini, and that a good portion of the human population of Seshnela in 1049 were turned into beastmen, with centaurs apparently the most common form.

Syranthir Forefront - a heir of the Loskalmi tradition of Hrestol's second approach to the Men-of-All - did bring the lion-hunting to the Brass Mountains, which may or may not have had their native lion population at the time, but no associated native Pelandans. As mentioned before, I see some potential for lion-brotherhood warriors being part of Syranthir's 10,000, bringing their own lion associates for tests of royalty.

The skinning of (a) Basmol happened before Time, in Prax, and Hrestol was blissfully ignorant of that event (as was Seshnegi Basmol, who went about mating with a wayward Pendali noble daughter to sire the three "sorcerers" out in the woods who would then threaten (and cause the inhumation of) his (and Ifftala's) half-brother Ylream two decades later).

Did Orlanth ever confront Basmol? Greymane suggests that some Pendali descendants joined Orlanth, and identify a lion-shaped Orlanth as their ancestor. (But then Orlanth is both Dragonfriend and Dragonslayer, so why not the same for lions?)

It is rather weird to see Tada perform one of the (punitive) tasks of Heracles (the Nemeian one), as he is the well-approved descendant (?) of the friendly Earth Queen, and the helpful husband of his female cousins of the land, rather than the unwanted bastard of her hubby's. (Unless of course he is something like the ultimate mortal?)

[mfbrandi]

VIVAMORT THE LIBERATOR

Vivamort and the vampires are much maligned and misunderstood. Where to start? With this, I think:

∞

A symbol of “total control of the power flow around the user” (RQ Classic PDF, p. 58) — the megalomaniac’s rune, then. A rune for one who cannot let go of power — the manacles of a slave, fetters. The unending cycle of death and rebirth — saṃsāra.

The undeath rune has been taken for the life rune toppled and struck through. There is some justice in that, perhaps — if ‘life’ means life after life after life after … Originally, though, it was written like this:

⧞

Letting go of power, striking through fetters, escape from saṃsāra.

• If … a vampire … is destroyed, he is annihilated; he does not enter the cycle of rebirth …
  [T]he vampire has willingly removed himself from the universal cycles.
  — Cults of Terror: Vivamort (Classic PDF, p. 45)
   
• In Buddhism, an arhat … or arahant … is one who has gained insight into the true nature of existence and has achieved Nirvana and liberated from the endless cycle of rebirth …

  In Theravada Buddhism, an arahant is a person who has eliminated all the unwholesome roots which underlie the fetters — who upon their death will not be reborn in any world, since the bonds (fetters) that bind a person to samsara have been finally dissolved.
  — Wikipedia: Arhat

A vampire has touched the Void but a physical and mental residue remains. When a vampire is destroyed, there is only the Void, with no residue: Ø. Vampires are portrayed as clinging to existence, but the truth is that unlike the run-of-the-mill living and dead, this is their final go round. They have voluntarily moved themselves closer to extinction. But why do they hang around, at all? Selflessly to help others ecstatically to the Void, of course — they have done all the hard work, you have just to lean back and expose your throat.

How strange Yelm and Sedenya must have seemed to Vivamort: supposedly liberated but ever dying and being reborn … and in such a hurry about it. He’d have helped if he could, but he is long gone. Only his children of the night remain. If Argrath is that fanged creature of the Dark — Arkat/Arhat — come again, perhaps he can finally drain all the blood from the moon, leaving only a Void in the ‘middle air’, A white moon? An invisible moon? No moon, at all?

Spoiler

This piece of frivolousness was entirely inspired by Count von Count puzzling over a not-so-lazy 8 with all those ‘broken manacles’ projected behind him. I blame Big Bird.

 

Edited May 17 by mfbrandi
moved one speech mark

[mfbrandi]

14 hours ago, Memestream said:

This suggests to me that followers of Issaries are the most diverse

But also genocidal lunatics who think they can build a god out of dead hyenas. Not popular with ecologists, then.

14 hours ago, Memestream said:

Argan Argar. He beat Lodril and he’s easier to reach than older more primordial deities, that’s about all I know about him.

As one of the trio who encountered the unborn Aether, AA might be counted as pretty primordial — his pals XU & ZZ are straight outta Darkness, right? I think of his birth from Xentha as a rebirth, symbolising his rôle as god of surface darkness. His beating Lodril is a callback to Three Curious Spirits, but also a restatement of the sun’s being underground when Xentha rules, right? If Yelm is constantly reborn, then AA is, too?

The three spirits form a sort of alpha to omega set:

• Argan Argar: — masters Lodril (above fire)
• Xiola Umbar: — befriends Yelm (beside fire)
• Zorak Zoran: — burning from the inside (containing that which was purged from Dayzatar?)

Yes, the mastery rune is no longer canon, but I think of it as the shallowness rune — surface darkness! XU has her secret (hence the mouthless face) and ZZ his third eye, but AA seems the least likely to have been illuminated by the encounter with Aether, no? But he is a practical god.

Edited May 17 by mfbrandi
refugee content from trade gods thread

[JayLay]

On 5/12/2024 at 3:04 PM, JayLay said:

• Sedenya is Flamal

On 5/13/2024 at 11:05 PM, Ynneadwraith said:

Ok, this I have to hear the argument for...

Be warned, I only have an Intelligence score of 5, but I think it has something to do with cycles. Also Sedenya has many arms, and plants have many branches. And is not the Red Moon like a juicy fruit up in the sky, now ripened from blue into red.

On 5/12/2024 at 3:04 PM, JayLay said:

• All the dragonewts of the first age were actually dragons. All the current dragonewts are humans from the EWF which is why they resemble the Human Rune.

On 5/16/2024 at 11:55 PM, scott-martin said:

In theory every korgatsu practice aims at something like a griffin or a dragonewt but the easy ways have been carefully obliterated, maybe by the spider or the spider's rivals or the spider's friends.

On 5/17/2024 at 3:42 AM, Eff said:

Lion - the sun is surrounded by a golden mane.

Then is Umath the great shearer of Yelm's mane. Is the Griffin not Yelm himself but through the beasteye?

On 5/17/2024 at 6:33 PM, Joerg said:

There is a rune for the original draconic humanoid - the dragonewt rune. A body plan imitated by the Newtlings, also with a life cycle in different stages, although the details vary strongly. But the dragonewt rune does not include a bird existance. (Not even the demibird.)

Based off the Prosopaedia entry, I take it that you think of Daruda as a dragonewt?

[mfbrandi]

8 hours ago, JayLay said:

Based off the Prosopaedia entry, I take it that you think of Daruda as a dragonewt?

Well, Daruda () does have the dragonewt rune, but on the other hand, I wouldn’t put too much store by this:

• He is usually depicted as a human with the head, tail, and wings of a dragon, carrying the imperial regalia.
  — Prosopaedia: Daruda (PDF, p. 28)

That’s just the iconography of the emperor, not their (supposed) actual appearance.

Spoiler

Even those creating the image don’t think Triolina looks like this:

• In Waertagi idols she is shown as a breastless, fish-scaled woman with two tails instead of legs, one a fishtail and the other a cetacean tail. Her hair is composed of trailing kelp and her many fins are drawn from several kinds of fish.
  — Prosopaedia: Triolina (PDF, p. 124)

8 hours ago, JayLay said:

I think it has something to do with cycles. Also Sedenya has many arms, and plants have many branches. And is not the Red Moon like a juicy fruit up in the sky, now ripened from blue into red.

I was ready — in my tiresomely cynical way — to dismiss this, but then I thought of what comes next: red berry is plucked and eaten, as Flamal was eaten by ZZ. If Argrath = Arkat = Kindly Old Uncle ZeeZee, well …

Spoiler

If the objection is that the dragons did the work for Argrath, wasn’t Orlanth decapitating himself in slaying the dragon? Orlanth Rex carries the dragon’s head, because the king “accept[s] the duty of entanglements” (ibid., p. 6). Orlanth = dragon. And if Argrath is the perfect Orlanthi hero, well: as above, so below. All this staring into the abyss turns the hero into the dragon/monster. And Argrath’s Wakboth is serpentine. Leviathan — like the king.

Of course, I am always prone to seeing a centripetal monotheism in Glorantha, although the official line is probably that Gloranthans are always copying each other and echoes don’t add up to identity. But we cannot worry about the official line here.

Of course, Orlanth is blue, cyclical (storm has its season), and many-armed, and he “ripens” into the redhead, Vinga. You are what you fight, or merely the narcissism of small differences? (Perhaps one function of the late, unlamented Elmal was to be Orlanth’s subaltern sun, as Sedenya has made a pet of Yelm.)

Edited May 19 by mfbrandi
storm season

[mfbrandi]

The Genertelan Riviera … where language goes on holiday.

[XcessiveNinja17]

Having read the whole of The Lunar Way in one sitting - the Crimson Bat is growing on me.

In fact, I dare say that the Crimson Bat is cute. I want to pet the Crimson Bat while it munches on those who are trying to ban whole other groups of people from existence.

Am I officially occluded now?

[Nevermet]

3 hours ago, XcessiveNinja17 said:

Having read the whole of The Lunar Way in one sitting - the Crimson Bat is growing on me.

In fact, I dare say that the Crimson Bat is cute. I want to pet the Crimson Bat while it munches on those who are trying to ban whole other groups of people from existence.

Am I officially occluded now?

Yes.

[Akhôrahil]

Evil.

Dead.

Eye and Hand remain.

Wakboth confirmed as Vecna.

Edited May 23 by Akhôrahil

[scott-martin]

This is Hon-Eel



unless it's the actual red goddess. Either way one form of the epic is HERE and another is HERE.

Edited May 23 by scott-martin
the changer & the changed

[mfbrandi]

16 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

one form of the epic

• Yellow brick = maize ear
• Orlanth = tornado

The Hero Wars started because the Big O really doesn’t like dogs: Toto is the target; “Dorothy” is just collateral damage.

Spoiler

 🎶 The moonlit wings reflect the stars that guide me towards salvation 🎶

Please, let it not be so!

[Eff]

"A color that had been torn out of the rainbow was returned as a peace offering." 

[mfbrandi]

54 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

possibly Re-Life Sickness into Humakt/CA (haven't decided yet, it hasn't come up)

This is perfect! So:

• Humakt if you have a death wish — “End me now. Can’t you see what I am?”
• The White Lady if you want to persuade yourself everything is tickety-boo (when it is not).

I guess Gark the SSRI is another option.

[Akhôrahil]

5 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Gark

I love Gark so much! It's at the same time bonkers and completely sensible. Gark - for when you don't want to go to the afterlife you in fact deserve and you have enough self-understanding to realize where you're going.

Edited May 23 by Akhôrahil

[Eff]

Afidisa is Artmal, and Artmal is "wounded" because this knowledge is kept hidden by various people who know better.

[mfbrandi]

… IS ONE OF THE NAMES FOR THE SPIKE // THE SHAPE OF THE WORLD // THE WAY NATURE WORKS // ITS IMMUTABLE BODY AND LAWS // CRUMBLED INTO SAND AND PEARLS // ALLOWED THE DEVIL TO ENTER // THE CENTRE OF THE WORLD // AND CREATED // THE VOID // JOTIMAM // HELD THE UNIVERSE TOGETHER // IT’S STILL HERE // AND NOW IT’S INVISIBLE // UTRIAM …

Spoiler

… IS ONE OF THE NAMES FOR THE SPIKE // THE SHAPE OF THE WORLD // THE WAY NATURE WORKS // CRUMBLED // ITS IMMUTABLE BODY AND LAWS // INTO // THE DEVIL // ALLOWED // SAND AND PEARLS // TO ENTER // JOTIMAM // AND // THE CENTRE OF THE WORLD // WAS CHANGED // THE UNIVERSE // HELD // TOGETHER // IT’S STILL HERE // AND NOW IT’S INVISIBLE // THE VOID  …

— A Gloranthan pseudo-cutup for Chip Delany, recycling text from King of Sartar and the recent Prosopaedia

[Nevermet]

Here's a new dumb theory:

 

According to the Lightbringer book, "There are no known tales of Daka Fal before the Greater Darkness. Ancient philosophers connect him with the primeval being called Grandfather Mortal, also commonly called Old Man..."

 

Here's the thing: Grandfather Mortal didn't die during the Greater Darkness.  

 

You know who did? Malkion.  Malkion is Daka Fal.

Edited May 23 by Nevermet

[mfbrandi]

5 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

Here’s a new … theory … Malkion is Daka Fal.

I like it, but is it new? Haven’t we had Grandmother Baboon = Malkion = Lanbril = Daka Fal, before? Perhaps it is wishful thinking on my part, or that my poor void-addled brain has come loose in time … again. And if you-know-what is a mirror, too, the Spindle Hag may have more identities to leak to us.

Strange devices of the sun and moon …

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

You know who did? Malkion.  Malkion is Daka Fal.

Not actually a dumb theory as Jeff has mentioned it several times as something that appears in Greg's early writings.  I've even gone so far to embrace it by saying the "Malkioni Church" in the HW/HQ era is really the cult of Daka Fal under the name of Malkion the Old*.  The Wizards hate the cult (since they can't easily tax them for magic points as they can for established temples) and since the Imperial Age have been doing an Alexamenos and calling them Daka Fal and giving their God the head of a Baboon.

 

[Eff]

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

Here's a new dumb theory:

 

According to the Lightbringer book, "There are no known tales of Daka Fal before the Greater Darkness. Ancient philosophers connect him with the primeval being called Grandfather Mortal, also commonly called Old Man..."

 

Here's the thing: Grandfather Mortal didn't die during the Greater Darkness.  

 

You know who did? Malkion.  Malkion is Daka Fal.

Of course, there is a third option here.

[theconfusingeel]

Could the 7 mothers creating the Red Goddess be a combination of the lightbringers and unholy trio?
On one hand it's 7 people, who went into hell(if I'm remembering correctly) to revive something, like the lighbringer quest.
And on the other it's a group of people bringing a chaos god into the world, like the unholy trio.
This is a big stretch, but that's why i'm posting it here

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, theconfusingeel said:

And on the other it's a group of people bringing a chaos god into the world, like the unholy trio.

YT’s “ram” relates him to Ragnaglar? Jakaleel has , like Mallia? But that is just my rusty wheels creaking. Say more!

[Richard S.]

On 1/24/2024 at 10:49 PM, Richard S. said:

Dumb Theory: the Dara Happan Sacred Alphabet is written top to bottom, left to right - i.e. in columns instead of rows.

Dumb Reason: solely because I've been using it to write private notes recently and it feels more comfortable that way (which of course means those stuffy Buseri probably do it the other way). I also think it looks nicer in columns.

I've now got strong evidence that New Pelorian probably has some roots in a "cursive" form of the Sacred Alphabet, developed by scribes whose wrists were getting damn tired from having to make all those straight lines and perfect corners. Further research pending until my hands start to uncramp.

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, theconfusingeel said:

And on the other it's a group of people bringing a chaos god into the world

… like the Lightbringers stitching the Devil into the fabric of the world, the mundane world … the temporal world. The Devil is to the world of time as the Spike is to the God Time. I am sure that was the answer to a GRE question.