SIZ (again!)

[seneschal]

So, increased STR and CON based on his SIZ makes his nigh-incalculable strength even nigher and more incalculable? Instead of pushing the Earth out of (or more likely, back into) orbit, Superman can now put the entire solar system in his pocket and go home (um, wherever that happens to be once he's done that)? See, this is why I majored in journalism rather than physics in college. Are you sure this isn't an Imaginary Story?

On the other hand, we could toss plus-SIZ Supes into the Call of Cthulhu universe. The Mythos is toast. Mankind is safe. And we can all sleep soundly at night. At least until the next DC Comics Crisis.

Edited January 2, 2014 by seneschal
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[QueenJadisOfCharn]

Superheroes massively pwn 99% of fantasy antagonists. Apocalypse would smash Sauron like a baby. Thanos would eat Melkor and destroy middle earth with a right hook, then he'd blast Elric to atoms. Classic mythology can't compete with pulp mythology. Probably because we're a bit more conscious and consistent about powers.

[Atgxtg]

So, increased STR and CON based on his SIZ makes his nigh-incalculable strength even nigher and more incalculable? Instead of pushing the Earth out of (or more likely, back into) orbit, Superman can now put the entire solar system in his pocket and go home (um, wherever that happens to be once he's done that)? See, this is why I majored in journalism rather than physics in college. Are you sure this isn't an Imaginary Story?

Yes, not and not exactly. You see the way it works, realistically (and that's not necessarily the way it works in the comics -especially for superman), is that strength increases at a rate equal to the mass raised to the (2/3) power. What that means in that STR doesn't change as fast as mass. So if Superman's mass (and weight) were multiplied by a factor or about 900 (30x30x30), his Strength would only be increased by a factor of around 900 (30x30). A superman who is 900 times Stronger than the present one wouldn't be able to move that many planets, let alone the Sun. And post-crisis Superman isn't strong enough to push the Earth around anymore.

As far a CON goes, it shouldn't be increased at all, but since BRP doesn't factor SIZ into things like poison resistance, a lot of big creatures get an increase in CON to keep them from being to easy to kill. POW also gets a modest increase from SIZ for similar reasons. Most GMs don't want to have the big nasties get taken out with befuddles and such due to low POW scores.

On the other hand, we could toss plus-SIZ Supes into the Call of Cthulhu universe. The Mythos is toast. Mankind is safe. And we can all sleep soundly at night. At least until the next DC Comics Crisis.

Heck, even original SIZ Superman should be able to protect mankind from most of the Mythos nasties. His STR score is so high, relatively speaking, that any mythos creature that can be harmed by physical means could be defeated by one punch. Not that it would play out that way in the comics. Despite how tough and strong superman is supposed to be, in practice he usually ends up being just weak enough so that outer superstrong beings can give him a fight.

But Superman is one of the most extreme examples of a super powered character, and he pushes the BRP game mechanics quite a bit. The game wasn't designed to handle characters with 15+ digit STR scores (and that's for relatively wimpy post-crisis Supes, who can't push the Earth around), qand things like the damage bonus is just unbelievable in BRP terms.

Sticking with the doubling progression for STR and SIZ would probablyy result in a somewhat more playable set of stats, but even so STR is going to be incredibly impressive.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Atgxtg

[Atgxtg]

Superheroes massively pwn 99% of fantasy antagonists. Apocalypse would smash Sauron like a baby. Thanos would eat Melkor and destroy middle earth with a right hook, then he'd blast Elric to atoms. Classic mythology can't compete with pulp mythology. Probably because we're a bit more conscious and consistent about powers.

Not necessarily. One thing about legendary beings is that their powers are not entirely physical. So there is a lot more to them and their power than just good game stats. Also, many mythical and legendary beings attributes are greater than their comic book counterparts. Some of Thor's feats in the old Norse legends require a much stronger character than what the Marvel version of Thor.

The thing is, most mythical and legendary beings were not presented in a manner that holds up with a understanding of the laws of physics, so it's kinda hard to make a fair comparison.

There is a bit of Wylie Coyote-ism going on here too. The more we understand about how things work, the more likely we are to ignore or eliminate the more silly examples of great power. For instance, if a super strong character tried to lift up something really big, like a batttleship or mountain, we know that the object being listed couldn't withstand the force being extended over such a small area as one person's hands, and would break apart. Nor could the ground beneath the character support all the weight. So when dealing with super strong character we must either tone down their abilities, or ignore the laws of psychics for a bit. If you are not aware of the violations, then the extreme feats are not a problem.

[tal]

Given the starting comment that in space, everyone would have a SIZ of 0, for this discussion it's probably important to use Mass when we're talking about Mass and Weight when we're talking about Weight.

I think the original BRP text was being colloquial in using Weight when in fact they meant Mass. Although I'm usually a stickler for precision, I think for the common reader, Mass and Weight mean the same thing. For those who know the difference, making a mental conversion from one to the other shouldn't be a problem.

Steve

Ringworld replaced Siz with Mass. So you could rename it if it bothers someone that much without a problem.

Edited January 6, 2014 by tal

[QueenJadisOfCharn]

So when dealing with super strong character we must either tone down their abilities, or ignore the laws of psychics for a bit.

Not necessarily. One could also deal with that strength realistically, ie strength = accelerated mass, meaning Superman or Hulk could blast most things to dust or atoms with a punch. The reason they ignore logic in comics is because most characters should die with hilarious ease if pitted against a 'realistic', hyberbole free Apocalypse; and being super strong enough to smash a planet (like Thanos or Thor) means 99.9% of enemies would be insignificant. People like to see fights between characters that ought to be one sided, so they Job.

And trust me, mythic Thor has no feats to match Silver Age Thor or Superman. Universe escaping, Ragnarok beating, galaxy busting studd. Mythic Thor's wildly inconsistent power levels never ranged as high as the 1960s-70s God-Princes of Marvel and DC.

In my own Mythic engine superhero games we tend to take superpowers at face value, so Magneto can shoot lasers, cause chemical explosions and rearrange molecules (all eM) and the Hulk can easily kill almost anyone. I love comics, but I hate unfulfilled hyperbole. Which is why1970s Superman pwn post 70s sissy jobber.

And think of how easy killing with telekinesis is. So it ends up kinda like Wild Cards turned up to 11.

Edited January 6, 2014 by QueenJadisOfCharn

[QueenJadisOfCharn]

Speaking of size, armor prices for double height should be somewhere over 8x the cost for rarity, increased material, special structural enhancements and, in the case of plate, special advanced smithing to produce such BIG blooms of steel! This is a good way to get across the difficulties of being an ogre, even a socially acceptable one. We're talking like a 50k-100k GP for a suit of Ogre Plate.

[Atgxtg]

Not necessarily. One could also deal with that strength realistically, ie strength = accelerated mass, meaning Superman or Hulk could blast most things to dust or atoms with a punch. The reason they ignore logic in comics is because most characters should die with hilarious ease if pitted against a 'realistic', hyberbole free Apocalypse; and being super strong enough to smash a planet (like Thanos or Thor) means 99.9% of enemies would be insignificant. People like to see fights between characters that ought to be one sided, so they Job.

I disagree. The thing with handling this stuff realistically is that most of what the heroes do in the comics wouldn't work. For example, how many times does a hero catch a falling character, and the falling character is unharmed? Realistically. Lois Lane should have broke her back on Superman's arms.

Or when one of those super strong characters throws a punch, they don't move. If they handled their strength realistically then quite a few of these supers would either be send flying or punch right through their opponents.

And most of the great lifting feats we see in the comics wouldn't work. The characters would be more likely to break off pieces rather than actually lift a 747, tank, or even a pickup truck in their hands.

And trust me, mythic Thor has no feats to match Silver Age Thor or Superman. Universe escaping, Ragnarok beating, galaxy busting studd. Mythic Thor's wildly inconsistent power levels never ranged as high as the 1960s-70s God-Princes of Marvel and DC.

Mythic Thor's feats surpasses those of Marvel Thor, even during the 60-70s. For instance, nearly lifting the Midgard Serpent out of the ocean. Marvel's Thor lifting ability is somewhere around the 100 ton mark. Now Silver Age Superman is another story. But DC's characters tend to be more powerful than Marvel's.

In my own Mythic engine superhero games we tend to take superpowers at face value, so Magneto can shoot lasers, cause chemical explosions and rearrange molecules (all eM) and the Hulk can easily kill almost anyone. I love comics, but I hate unfulfilled hyperbole. Which is why1970s Superman pwn post 70s sissy jobber.

And think of how easy killing with telekinesis is. So it ends up kinda like Wild Cards turned up to 11.

Be careful. If you really fulfill the hyperbole then Magneto and the Hulk probably wouldn't survive using their powers. It's so easy for Magneto to accidentally give himself a lethal dose of radiation that it's not funny.

Plus a very high power levels it gets boring. Most of these guys can easily kill another super if they can strike from surprise.

[QueenJadisOfCharn]

Comic Thor lifted the Midgard Serpent, with a resistance of 105 sextillion tons, too. He's also moved planet sized masses and is easily stronger than comic Hercules, who pulled the island of Manhattan. Comic book Thor is essentially science fantasy Thor and is Marvel's equivalent to Superman. He's been toned down, but doing lunatic stuff like flying throufh dimensions by whirling Mjolnir was casual for the Thor of Kirby and Roy Thomas, and Simson's Thor was also outrageously strong; such as when he fought the Midgard Serpent while dying of a cursed wound. Throw on his belt, gloves and berserkgang and he's approaching Jupiter tossing or, like his Dad, possibly tearing galaxies up. There are extensive comic threads devoted to how insanely powerful a few comic characters are. Wonder Man can break adamantium and one arm an aircraft carrier.

And you're right about structural integrity, but we try to take that into account; not to GURPS levels of detail but obviously you can't lift a building unless it's made out of some incredible sci fi plastic. As for the radiation poisoning, I assume characters with control and emission powers are adapted to the side effects of their own powers. That seems assumed. The same goes for the Hulk: he can exert millions of tons of force because he's nearly indestructible. And if two super strong characters fight we do do the whole knocked back half a mile or at least through a couple buildings. Heck, Spider-Man can throw the Hulk, strength doesn't make you intrinsically heavier.

Silver Age Superman is just beyond reckoning. He could time travel as a baby, survive sun destoying blasts at point black range without being tickled, was unharmed by the combined efforts of Hercules and Samson, flew outside of the multiverse and into heaven, pulled an entire galaxy of planets one handed faster than light. Outside of 'omnipotence' Superman has the best feats around. Solar, Man of the Atom, is even more ridiculous.

[seneschal]

Marvel's Molecule Man also has insane levels of power, limited only by his basic shyness and insecurity. At least during the Secret Wars era.

[BMonroe]

I've always thought that naming APPearence what it was, was one of the only problems with the BRP system. Actual beauty is subjective, based on personal preferences. The fact that many of these are common to entire cultures seems a piss poor excuse to not have any form of system for MAKING appearance subjective.

In Magic World, I redefined APP almost more like a haracter's bearing, I wanted to rename it to Appeal, actually,but in the end decided not to rock the boat. The idea being that a higher APP character is simply more congenial, and pleasant to be around, whether this comes from being physically attractive, well-spoken, extremely kind, etc. This is why APP MW forms the basis of the skill category modifier for all Communication skills, as well as being at the core of the distinctive looks table.

[Atgxtg]

Comic Thor lifted the Midgard Serpent, with a resistance of 105 sextillion tons, too. He's also moved planet sized masses and is easily stronger than comic Hercules, who pulled the island of Manhattan.

Cam you give me some of the issues where he did that? The stuff I've seen from Marvel has kept the top rate heroes at around the 100 ton mark. I've never seen Thor moving planet sized masses.

And you're right about structural integrity, but we try to take that into account; not to GURPS levels of detail but obviously you can't lift a building unless it's made out of some incredible sci fi plastic.

It would have to be some really incredible stuff. It's not so much the total force that is the problem, but the distribution. Like when a superhero grabs onto an airplane and tries to help it fly, by supporting a wing or the fuselage. Doing that would probably break the plane apart, tear off a wing, or at best, punch a couple of fist sized holes into the aircraft.

Awhile back, I was looking at the Hulk's stats in BRP terms (about STR 100, SIZ 32) and that in BRP terms he probably could do more damage to a tank by picking it up and dropping it than by punching it.

As for the radiation poisoning, I assume characters with control and emission powers are adapted to the side effects of their own powers.

Yes, but often the side effects of some powers ends up being far nastier and powerful that the alleged main power. And again, I was referring to applying the powers realistically. The comics generally don't apply the powers realistically, and for some good reasons. Gwen Stacy was about the only time the comics played things realistically.

That seems assumed. The same goes for the Hulk: he can exert millions of tons of force because he's nearly indestructible.

[threedeesix]

In Magic World, I redefined APP almost more like a haracter's bearing, I wanted to rename it to Appeal, actually,but in the end decided not to rock the boat. The idea being that a higher APP character is simply more congenial, and pleasant to be around, whether this comes from being physically attractive, well-spoken, extremely kind, etc. This is why APP MW forms the basis of the skill category modifier for all Communication skills, as well as being at the core of the distinctive looks table.

This is why I ended up changing Appearance to Charisma in BRP: Classic Fantasy. And because it used to be Charisma in the earlier versions of RQ, I didn't feel overly bad about it.

Rod

[BMonroe]

I toyed with that as well. I decided to leave it as APP mostly for consistency's sake, and because Mongoose's RQ was using CHA.

[QueenJadisOfCharn]

Thor: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t522796.html

And the Hulk has moved continents.

Marvel's heavy hitters have never been quite as '11' as DCs, but the Marvel strength press claims are garbage. Wonder Man, who can easily arm curl 80 tons and one arm a helicarrier is classed as 100 tons, which is laughable.

Superman was ramped up pretty quickly after Crisis, too. By the late 1990s he was flying faster than light and dragging black holes. Currently, bench pressi g the Earth for five days with no sunlight extracted one drop of sweat from Superman, and he constantly gets stronger (and smarter). The whole Byrne depowering, like Byrne, was rapidly rejected; as were most of his changes to Superman's origins and personality.

[Erasmus1966]

One of the great joys of my life is when discussions like this get technical

I hated the Byrne reboot - the art, the story, all of it - the origin was told far better in 'Birthright' (otherwise known as 'how to make a REALLY good Superman story')

... and if I found the right file, using Atgxtg's doubling progression, Earth is Siz: 620 (approx)

[seneschal]

So ... given our SIZ discussion in relation to Superman, how come he always gets clobbered in Justice League? Shouldn't he be kicking butt and taking names instead of playing sidekick to Batman? Grrrr!

[QueenJadisOfCharn]

So ... given our SIZ discussion in relation to Superman, how come he always gets clobbered in Justice League? Shouldn't he be kicking butt and taking names instead of playing sidekick to Batman? Grrrr!

Because of what I said earlier about fights between people that should be no contest. I get annoyed by it, but the lumpenproletariate who buy the books apparently think it's 'kewl' for bad, formulaic plotting to be endlessly rehashed.

And yeah, Byrne sucks. Before hating Rob Liefeld was a hobby for comic grognards, hating John Byrne was in.

[Link6746]

Why does Superman get clobbered so much? Because Batman is Chuck Norris in the DC Universe. How else can you explain how he's the only "Normal" Member of the justice league, an organization of superhumans, yet Superman gave HIM the plans in case he were to threaten earth somehow?

Because people in the DC Universe probably would make up "Facts" about batman the way we do about Chuck Norris, that's why.

[Atgxtg]

Thor: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t522796.html

Thanks. I'll look that thread over. Lots of stuff there.

And the Hulk has moved continents.

Marvel's heavy hitters have never been quite as '11' as DCs, but the Marvel strength press claims are garbage. Wonder Man, who can easily arm curl 80 tons and one arm a helicarrier is classed as 100 tons, which is laughable.

Post-Crisis Superman is still quite a bit weaker than Pre-Crisis Superman. Now admittedly he doesn't look weak, since he is still so icredibly powerful, but the differences between the two are quite substantial.

[Atgxtg]

So ... given our SIZ discussion in relation to Superman, how come he always gets clobbered in Justice League?

becuase it makes for a better, more dramatic story. If he shrugged off over 95% of the attacks think of how boring it would be to watch and/or read.

Shouldn't he be kicking butt and taking names instead of playing sidekick to Batman? Grrrr!

Yup. In fact, since he has super-speed, he should be able to kick butt and take names before most of his foes are even aware that the fight has started. But again, seeing that happen over and over would be boring. It's the same reason why Lex Luthor can put together a powersuit that lets him challenge Superman physically.

Now if Luthor really were a genius, he'd throw together a couple dozen of those powersuits, coat them in Krytonite and take care of Superman once and for all.

[soltakss]

What this really means is that BRP is not suitable for SuperHeroes.

[seneschal]

What this really means is that BRP is not suitable for SuperHeroes.

Well, maybe not for Superman/Darkseid/Thor/Hulk level superheroes. On the other hand, several of our posters have run successful and enjoyable low- to mid-powered superhero campaigns. BRP might not be the best rules set for Justice League, Unlimited. But it can do TV Wonder Woman and Hulk, the Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers, Green Hornet, Adam West Batman, Arrow, the Mighty Heroes, etc.

"Alpha, bring me some BRP players with attitude!"

[Atgxtg]

What this really means is that BRP is not suitable for SuperHeroes.

Nah, it just means that reality is not suitable for SuperHeroes. BRP just needs a little tweaking. Back when Chaosium did the Superworld RPG (Boxed Set) they tweaked some of the RQ/BRP rules to better fit the genre. We just need to customize the BRP rules a bit so they can handle the high powered heroes.

For instance, the variant doubling progression I'd been championing (sorry, couldn't resist the pun) is very similar to the one used for SIZ in Superworld and latter adapted for RQ3. I think it could help us handle the really strong heroes. If we go with Superman being able to lift 200,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons, then the doubling progression reduces his BRP STR score from about STR 20,000,000,000,000,000,000 to a much more game-able STR 582. It also lowers his damage bonus down from around +1,250,000,000,000,000,000D6 to a more BRP friendly+36D6 or so.

[seneschal]

Actually, my test of the flexibility of a superhero RPG isn't Superman, isn't Godzilla. It's the Energizer Bunny. No offensive abilities, but nigh invulnerable (like The Tick), he just keeps going, and going, and going .... I could build EB in Champions. Haven't yet tried with BRP.