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SIZ (again!)


Agentorange

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I know , I know. I keep coming back to this stat over and over again. But I've got to ask: if SIZ is a measure of weight ( as is stated inthe BRP SIZ table ) does that mean that in a zero G environment ie: weightless, everybody is SIZ 0 ?

I would say no, becouse an object in space can be "weightless", but it still has mass. After all, if an asteroid the size of Rhode Island strikes the earth, it doesnt budge it becouse both have mass, but the mass of the earth is much greater. Also, and I know this part is confusing for me as well, but SIZ is just as much a factor of height/length (in my opinion moreso) as weight.

Just look at the SIZ table on page 26.

A character that is 200 lbs can be SIZ 10 to 20.

But a character that is 68" can only be SIZ 11-12.

I agree though, that once you get above human size range, SIZ tends to be more a matter of weight than height.

Rod

Edited by threedeesix

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...SIZ tends to be more a matter of weight than height.
Given the starting comment that in space, everyone would have a SIZ of 0, for this discussion it's probably important to use Mass when we're talking about Mass and Weight when we're talking about Weight.

I think the original BRP text was being colloquial in using Weight when in fact they meant Mass. Although I'm usually a stickler for precision, I think for the common reader, Mass and Weight mean the same thing. For those who know the difference, making a mental conversion from one to the other shouldn't be a problem.

Steve

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It's possible I might have been doing the mental equivalent of throwing a large stone into a pond and watching the splashes here :D

Joking aside as I've said before SIZ is the one stat that really bugs me. Ideally I'd like to see three tables: weight, height, length with SIZ being an average of the three.

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Joking aside as I've said before SIZ is the one stat that really bugs me. Ideally I'd like to see three tables: weight, height, length with SIZ being an average of the three.

I think they could just drop it all together, using 1/2 STR + 1/2 CON for hit points, STR only for damage modifier, and use STR, CON & DEX to evaluate how the character/creature deviates from the norm. >:->

SGL.

Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub!
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SIZ for me has always been Mass, and I think ultimately for Chaosium too. Witness their ease of changing the characteristic for Ringworld, with the stipulation that actual weight would vary from world to world. I think they have always referenced it as weight because all their "worlds" were at 1G.

I have always found the attempt at relation to height to be a bad idea. Too much variation, even among humans, to be meaningful.

SDLeary

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Chalk me up for 'Mass rather than weight' as well, although in certain circumstances treating SIZ as zero because you're in zero-G would make sense. It all gets a bit weird when you go off-world.

I agree, I bet this is going to be answered within Interplanetary.

Hint hint Jason. >:->

Rod

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I think they could just drop it all together, using 1/2 STR + 1/2 CON for hit points, STR only for damage modifier, and use STR, CON & DEX to evaluate how the character/creature deviates from the norm. >:->

SGL.

Ah, now you see I'd disagree with that. I think SIZ is a good stat to have, I just don't think it's done particularly well as it stands.

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In physical science, Weight is measured in Newtons and represents the gravitational force between two objects of mass. It relates to Mass, measured in Grams/Kilograms (or whatever), in that the greater the mass of an object the greater the gravitational force towards an other object (eg a planet). Hence, a greater Mass usually indicates a greater Weight, depending upon the gravity involved. A 75kg mass has a weight of 750N (aprox) in Earth's gravitational field.

To answer the question, then, Size represents a measurement of Mass combined with Height. It couldn't be a Weight characteristic, insofar that a person's Weight is dependent upon the gravitational pull of another object (or not, in the case of being in outer space). Weight can change depending upon the circumstances (eg 'weightlessness') but Mass is kept constant.

My rule of thumb is that Size loosely represents the mass of the individual in Stones, although this is entirely unofficial.

Edited by TrippyHippy
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As others have pointed out, SIZ represents Mass, rather than Weight. It has aspects of Height as well. Short and fat can have the same SIZ as tall and thin.

If we are talking weight, then a high-gravity world would have SIZ increasing which doesn't really make sense. Hence Mass for SIZ.

MAS and LEN averaged as SIZ works better for a Sci-Fi setting.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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It just bugs me that the rulebook uses weight when it means mass, if you mean mass, say mass. After all that's precisely what Chaosium did in their Ringworld RPG.

As Simon says there are elements of height in there as well. The write ups for giants in the Basic Creatures book ( and I think maybe the BRP rulebook ) give measurements in height, likewise dragons get measurements for length in the Basic creatures book ( well they did in the old RQ3 creatures book....and since one is reprint of t'other ..)

It's the inconsistency of it that winds me up.

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I think the thing is that most people would find it more confusing, since they rarely need to differntiate between the two, and so the game uses theunits most people would be familiar with, the kilogram (a unit of mass), and the pound (a unit of weight). Since the gravitational effect is a constant as far as most gaming settings go, the error is usually not significant.

When I did up my revised SIZ table, I was guilty of the same error. I suppose I could chance the term pound to pound-mass as a simply fix for technical accuracy.

As far as giants and the like go, I suspect something more complex is going on that just weight for height in the (X)D6 per (Y) meters SIZ formulas. Since mass (or weight) does not increase in a linear fashion, what you actually get are creastures that sort of sidestep the square cube law. That is giants are less dense (lower specfic gravity) as they get larger. Probably a good idea too, as otherwise SIZ 8and STR) would go up much more rapidly.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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  • 4 years later...

My rule of thumb is that Size loosely represents the mass of the individual in Stones, although this is entirely unofficial.

Looking at the average weights in pounds on the Character SIZ Chart in the BGB they map fairly well to SIZ (or MAS as I also prefer) equaling Stones on a 1-to-1 ratio. Frex: Average weight in pounds for SIZ 10 is 145lbs which converts to 10.35714 stone. Similarly SIZ 11 is 157.5lbs which is 11.25 stone and SIZ 12 is 170lbs which is 12.14286 stone.

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Just saw "The Hobbit: Desolation of Smaug." What would you say the SIZ/mass of that lizard was? Interestingly enough, the dragonocentric movie was preceded by a trailer for the 2014 version of "Godzilla." What a rumble that would be!
Feat-wise, Godzilla's nuclear fire wins. Middle Earth is kinda low msgic. Most of its deities could be beat up by random superheroes.

It's funny how much of a discussion SIZ has engendered. Think about 'Dexterity', what kind of non attribute is that? Speed? No, that's strength - the ability to accelerate relative to one's mass. Skills and Intelligence cover most of the fine manipulation and control aspects, including 'reaction time'. Of all the Characteristics I'd say Strength and Size are the least abstract and gamey. Power is basically 'whatever personality traits the GM associates with willpower and vital force of personality'.

Edited by QueenJadisOfCharn
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It's funny how much of a discussion SIZ has engendered.

It always does - any abstraction of characteristics causes debate about whet they mean, how they relate to the real world and so on.

Think about 'Dexterity', what kind of non attribute is that? Speed? No, that's strength - the ability to accelerate relative to one's mass. Skills and Intelligence cover most of the fine manipulation and control aspects, including 'reaction time'.

Muscle-bound weightlifters are extremely strong but are quite slow and not at all nimble.

People with high intelligence don't necessarily have fast reaction times.

For me, DEX measures nimbleness and flexibility, as well as speed of action/reaction.

Power is basically 'whatever personality traits the GM associates with willpower and vital force of personality'.

Or of magical force in a fantasy game.

Force of personality is measured by CHA. In fact, APP is just appearance, CHA is magnetism/force of personality. Someone can be drop-dead handsome and unable to inspire leadership, whereas someone else could be pug-ugly but will be followed by a devoted group of people.

Of all the Characteristics I'd say Strength and Size are the least abstract and gamey.

You could measure INT as being IQ / 10, especially when using the 3D6 INT of RQ2 But IQ Scores are, in themselves, controversial, so that is not an ideal measure.

SIZ for Mass works reasonably well. SIZ for height works well with humanoids.

But, a fat dwarf or skinny giant might have the same overall SIZ. That's why I use MAS and LEN in SciFi games.

STR can be used to lift things with the Resistance Table, so it always gives you a chance, but the higher the chance the more you can lift.

APP can be measured - I did put a sample table up but it was withdrawn for some "taste" reasons, can't understand why. :)

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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"APP can be measured - I did put a sample table up but it was withdrawn for some "taste" reasons, can't understand why." :)

Because political correctness is the enemy of all rational discussion, even discussion of something as obscure, silly, and harmless as tabletop role-playing. Anything, no matter how mild and inane, that could possibly be construed as potentially offensive must be interpreted in the harshest possible light. Someone might join these boards who happens to be a left-handed height-, weight-, beauty-, educationally-challenged Muslim of color and Polish descent with a disability who happens to prefer alternate lifestyles (other than, of course, ones embracing traditional Judeo-Christian morals), and they might choose to allow their feelings to be hurt. Of course, if no such person is available, one of our existing posters might one day meet such a person, or meet someone who claims to have met such a person, and thus must choose to be offended for the potentially injured party. ;)

Edited by seneschal
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For Christmas my wife got me one of those "Man of Steel" 31-inch tall Superman action figures with 7 points of articulation. She said it was for my role-playing games and was so proud of herself that I grinned and thanked her profusely. I'm trying to figure out where to put it other than in the middle of the kitchen table. Now, given that the average 25-30mm or 1/72 scale role-playing miniature representing a hero 6 feet tall is about 1-inch tall, that makes Superman approximately 186 feet tall, on par with Godzilla. This leads me to the conclusion that a) my wife is woefully ignorant of my hobby and, B) my Zerboz 1/72 scale Lex Luthor is in real trouble. It also leads to two questions:

1) At 186 feet tall, what is Supes' approximate SIZ? And,

2) How long does it take the effects of Red Kryptonite to wear off?

;D

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I've always thought that naming APPearence what it was, was one of the only problems with the BRP system. Actual beauty is subjective, based on personal preferences. The fact that many of these are common to entire cultures seems a piss poor excuse to not have any form of system for MAKING appearance subjective.

Personally my method is that, if a character is seducing someone, their preference of bodystyle uses the SIZ stat as a reference on a chart (Real or Imagined), and any Reaction checks based on Appearence rely upon the idea that 10 SIZ is the average, 5 or less is Petite, and 15 or more is Large. Each character either has a preference for this, or it defaults to the same as their culture's "Normal" preference.

If you're closer to 5 or 15 than 10 and the target of seduction is fond of average bodytypes, then your seduction check is moved 1 step towards difficult. If you're closer to ten than either of those, it's Normal. If you made special preparations based on other things the character being seduced likes, you move it one step towards easy.

And yes, Seduction HAS come up in play before in PnP during games I've hosted. The fact I've made a Spot Rule out of it shows just how often players think it's an option depending on the crowd.

But then, the fact I'm able to think of this probably reflects poorly on the cleanliness of my mind in the first place ;)

Edited by Link6746
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"APP can be measured - I did put a sample table up but it was withdrawn for some "taste" reasons, can't understand why." :)

Because political correctness is the enemy of all rational discussion, even discussion of something as obscure, silly, and harmless as tabletop role-playing. Anything, no matter how mild and inane, that could possibly be construed as potentially offensive must be interpreted in the harshest possible light. Someone might join these boards who happens to be a left-handed height-, weight-, beauty-, educationally-challenged Muslim of color and Polish descent with a disability who happens to prefer alternate lifestyles (other than, of course, ones embracing traditional Judeo-Christian morals), and they might choose to allow their feelings to be hurt. Of course, if no such person is available, one of our existing posters might one day meet such a person, or meet someone who claims to have met such a person, and thus must choose to be offended for the potentially injured party. ;)

Citizen, the Party finds your use of rational thinking to be offensive. Please report to the Ministry of Truth.

;D

Edited by dragonewt
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For Christmas my wife got me one of those "Man of Steel" 31-inch tall Superman action figures with 7 points of articulation. She said it was for my role-playing games and was so proud of herself that I grinned and thanked her profusely. I'm trying to figure out where to put it other than in the middle of the kitchen table. Now, given that the average 25-30mm or 1/72 scale role-playing miniature representing a hero 6 feet tall is about 1-inch tall, that makes Superman approximately 186 feet tall, on par with Godzilla. This leads me to the conclusion that a) my wife is woefully ignorant of my hobby and, B) my Zerboz 1/72 scale Lex Luthor is in real trouble. It also leads to two questions:

1) At 186 feet tall, what is Supes' approximate SIZ?

Superman's official height is listed at 6' 3", and his official weight is listed as 225 pounds.

225 pounds is about SIZ 16.

To get his weight at 186 feet we can use the cube-square law.

186 feet is 29.76 times 6'3", and according to the cube-square law, Superman's new weight would be his original weight (225 pounds) multiplied by the cube of height ratio (because he is not only 29.76 times taller, but also 29.76 times as wide, and 27.76 times as deep).

225x29.76x29.76x29.76 = 5.930,363 pounds and a few ounces.

So a 186 foot tall Superman would weigh roughly 6 million pounds! Or 3000 tons! I can give you a couple of SIZ scores for that, depending on which conversion method your prefer- the official one or my doubling one. The doubling one is the onyl one which can give you a usable STR score for Superman.

2) How long does it take the effects of Red Kryptonite to wear off?

Much tricker to answer. It depends on the reason why the effects Red Kryptonite usually takes 24 hours to wear off on Superman in the first place.

If we go for a technical solution, and assume that it has to do with his super health (i.e. CON) and how much Red Krytonite radiation his SIZ can soak the duration could be reduced considerably. Then again, it might not be reduced that much at all.

As a rule of thumb, we've been using 2/3rd the change in SIZ as the change to STR and CON. Since Superman has such a large STR for his SIZ (he can lift so many tons his STR score is effectively infinite in standard BRP terms- so the increase due to increased mass might not mean much at his CON level.)

Edited by Atgxtg

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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