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Stripped down Fantasy BRP


Chaot

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As per the discussion in this thread, I've been toying around with a very bare bones fantasy system. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to put it through it's paces, as life continually insists on getting in the way of game time. But this is what I have so far.

There are six stats, Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Intelligence, Power and Charisma. I dropped Size and I'm seriously thinking about dropping Charisma as it doesn't do much right now. Reasons to keep it in would be for determining beginning skill levels and to possibly fuel Bardic and Religious magic. I'm not sure if this is enough for me to keep it around.

Then there's the derived stats, Hit Points, Magic, and the Damage Bonus. Hit Points will either be the character's Con or (Str+Con)/2. I'm leaning towards it just being Con. Magic is the character's Pow. Damage Bonus will be determined by referencing the character's Str on the Damage Bonus chart (which I've modified to take into account that its one Stat being referenced instead of two).

Str ---- DB

1-6 ---- -1d6

7-8 ---- -1d4

9-12 ---- none

13-16 ---- +1d4

17-20 ---- +1d6

21-28 ---- +2d6

ect.

That's just a rough table included to give an idea. It will likely change before I'm done.

Next are Skills; Artistry, Athleticism, Combat (divided into Melee and Missile), Communication, Craft, Knowledge, Language, Lore, Mercantilism, Perception, and Thievery. Combat and Language are separated from the other skills for ease of use. I find it easier to put Combat skills and Armor next to each other for quicker reference in combat. I'll get to that in a second.

For Language, I've decided to make it a special skill. You have one single language percentile that holds for every language you begin with. So if you have a Language 60% and have Common, Orcish, and Goblin under it you know those languages at 60%. If you meet up with a Dwarf for a session you can put an experience point in to start learning the language. I'll be using the Experience system I referenced in the thread linked above. This will give you pidgin Dwarfish, allowing you to speak it at half your language skill, so 30% for this example. If you adventure with a Dwarf again and invest a second Experience point in the language, your skill becomes your full Language percentile of 60%.

For combat and weapon effectiveness, I'm looking towards what Al. posted in the above linked to thread. Weapons break down like this.

Unarmed 1d3

Small 1d4

Medium 1d6

Large 1d8

Large used 2h 1d10

Great Weapon 2d6

Armor breaks down like this.

Very Light 1d4 (Padded, Leather)

Light 1d6 (Studded Leather, Chain Shirt, Hide)

Medium 1d8 (Scale, Chainmail, Breastplate)

Heavy 1d10 (Splint, Banded, Half Plate, Full Plate)

etc.

Adding a medium shield to your armor increases the armor by one step. Adding a large shield increases armor by two steps. So a character wearing Medium Armor with a Medium Shield would have an effective Armor of 2d6. These numbers aren't quite set yet. I want to run them through some mock battles and see how they stand in play.

Magic is skill based and pretty free form, as mentioned in the thread linked to above. For every 10% you have in the magic skill you can invest 1 MP. This is then referenced to the Demon Summoning table to determine effect.

MP ---- Damage --or-- Percentile

1 ---- 1d2 --or-- 10%

2 ---- 1d4 --or-- 20%

3 ---- 1d6 --or-- 30%

4 ---- 1d8 --or-- 40%

5 ---- 1d10 --or-- 50%

6 ---- 1d10+1d2 --or-- 60%

7 ---- 1d10+1d4 --or-- 70%

etc.

Special effects are adjudicated by the level descriptions in the Primea spell list (which I'm shamelessly using). These range from 1st to 5th level effects and casting them only costs as many magic points as spell level. A 5th level spell effect only costs 5 MP. However, the character has to be sufficiently skilled in the magic form in order to cast a given level spell effect.

1st ---- 01-20%

2nd ---- 21-50%

3rd ---- 51-100%

4th ---- 101-150%

5th ---- 151% <

So, that's about it. I think it's a fairly solid structure to hang a game on. There'll be magical do-dads and gee-gaws and baubles throughout that I'll codify as I go along.

Thoughts? Opinions?

70/420

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With regard to charisma, I'd keep it.

The thing with charisma is that some people don't ever use it, but some use it a lot - to determine whom it is that NPCs consider the leader etc. I think enough people use it to be worth keeping it, even if it ends up a dump-stat for some groups.

The whole thing looks like a good, streamlined fantasy system. :thumb:

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Jason mentioned earlier on rpg.net that one thing he would happily add to the resource scores a character has is Stability points for social interactions, losing Stability representing a "social" wound to reputation. It is not difficult to imagine what the base characteristic for these Stability points would be. So I think APP/CHA should remain as a characteristic. I would rather re-describe it as "The ability your character has to exert his or her influence in a social context."

For the rest, the rules you suggest are workable, but I do not see any benefit them. You will see more players who dislike having all small weapons doing 1d4 than players who think it is an improvement. Dropping SIZ could be an idea, it takes away some calculations, but it also forces you to use STR to evaluate a lot of details for which you used SIZ before (can I lift the dead brontosaur? can I knock Big Baddie into the river?).

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If you wanted to drop APP/CHA then POW could stand in painlessly

Dropping SIZ is quite workable and since STR must by definition be based on muscle MASS and hence SIZ a character's minimum mass could be based on STR quite easily (with room for extra mass for body fat).

If simplification is the goal then I'd be inclined to make Armour a fixed value.

WRT simplifying weapons. By making all weapons of the same size do the same damage you could make cardboard cut out weapons or open the way to differentiating weapons in some other way

Al

Rule Zero: Don't be on fire

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If you wanted to drop APP/CHA then POW could stand in painlessly

Except that POW would become an Uberstat in a game which relies on social interactions. But this could not be the scope of the OP.

A balanced system has as many mental characteristics as it has physical ones. D&D is a balanced system: 3 physical and 3 mental. BRP is not so balanced: 4 physical and 3 mental, and one of the mental ones is almost useless. GURPS is awfully unbalanced, with 3 physical and 1 mental.

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Except that POW would become an Uberstat in a game which relies on social interactions. But this could not be the scope of the OP.

I confess I tend to throw out ideas at discussions like this rather 'this is the way that what I'd do it innit' for just that reason. My assumption of what simplification is and your's and Chaot's will likely be at odds.

Curiously POW might not become the uber stat. If magical and religious shennanigans are inlcuded then the loss of POW for talisman, magic, summonings, enchantment will be a real sacrifice. i.e. Pow's usefulness is very great but players must make a real decision on which aspect to concentrate on.

Chaot wwill have the answer for this but I'm a guessin' that a player's choice of where to put there skill points will have a greater impact on their facility in social interactions than the presence or lack of APP/CHA.

Moving tangentially if you were to have a social analogue of hitpoints then again social skill percentage is going to be important still. (In the same way that Con is important in determining physical hit points but weapon skills stop Con being the uberstat in fightfests)

A balanced system

Balance is more important to some than others so I'll leave this one pretty much unanswered except to say that for a holistically balanced system with many fine little ideas GURPS is hilariously unbalanced.

Al

Rule Zero: Don't be on fire

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Except that POW would become an Uberstat in a game which relies on social interactions. But this could not be the scope of the OP.

A balanced system has as many mental characteristics as it has physical ones. D&D is a balanced system: 3 physical and 3 mental. BRP is not so balanced: 4 physical and 3 mental, and one of the mental ones is almost useless. GURPS is awfully unbalanced, with 3 physical and 1 mental.

Technically, BRP has five physical stats (STR, SIZ, CON, DEX, APP), one mental stat (INT), a spiritual stat (POW) and the option of another mental stat (EDU). Indeed, if you take a holistic view of Intelligence (which most modern psychologists, neurologists and cognitive scientists do), then you could actually argue that INT is a physical stat too (i.e you can lose INT through physical brain damage). In terms of it being used for cognitive uses (percention, memory, etc) it's as much of a physical stat as DEX is in some aspects.

Just because the stats don't fit into a classic body/mind dichotomy doesn't mean they aren't balanced. You could group them in other ways: STR/SIZ/CON (Body), DEX/INT (Mind) and POW/APP (Soul), for example.

Also, I would add that it is one of the curiosities in RPG simulation, that APP (or CHA) is frequently referred to as a 'dump stat' when the real world places so much stock in appearance. Good looks sell yourself, attracts attention and can facilitate successful relationships, social confidence and favourable reactions. In the modern world that is a lot more powerful than being able to lift a few extra kgs over one's head, for example.

Edited by TrippyHippy
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Technically, BRP has five physical stats (STR, SIZ, CON, DEX, APP), one mental stat (INT), a spiritual stat (POW) and the option of another mental stat (EDU). Indeed, if you take a holistic view of Intelligence (which most modern psychologists, neurologists and cognitive scientists do), then you could actually argue that INT is a physical stat too (i.e you can lose INT through physical brain damage). In terms of it being used for cognitive uses (percention, memory, etc) it's as much of a physical stat as DEX is in some aspects.

Just because the stats don't fit into a classic body/mind dichotomy doesn't mean they aren't balanced. You could group them in other ways: STR/SIZ/CON (Body), DEX/INT (Mind) and POW/APP (Soul), for example.

Also, I would add that it is one of the curiosities in RPG simulation, that APP (or CHA) is frequently referred to as a 'dump stat' when the real world places so much stock in appearance. Good looks sell yourself, attracts attention and can facilitate successful relationships, social confidence and favourable reactions. In the modern world that is a lot more powerful than being able to lift a few extra kgs over one's head, for example.

One of the reasons I favour the skill category bonuses is to emphasize the utility of (almost) all the attributes (although DEX and INT remain pre-eminent of course).

It is only a small effect but it underscores that there are benefits to be had from a good attribute score in any area.

Very slowly working towards completing my monograph.

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First, I have to say I like Chaot's minimal system :)

Now, about the balance in characteristics, the problem is when you try to use a pure point distribution method...

APP never makes you good at fighting or magic, which makes it a less appealing characteristic than others. There are even times when being handsome or gorgeous is a disadvantage (remember James Bood RPG ?)...

Also, SIZ is used to compute both Damage Bonus and Hit Points whereas the CON and STR only affect one. Of course, SIZ won't help you resist poisons or bend bars, but that's another problem...

In the end, a "fighter"-type character will have to juggle with 4 stats to optimize his fighting capacities, whereas a magician-type will simply maximize INT and POW, minimize STR and spend remaining points according to his likings.

That is why I stopped using point distribution methods in BRP some times ago :D

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Hi all, thanks for the input.

I guess I should clarify what I want to use this system for, so we're all on the same page. It would be for a beer and pretzels pick up fantasy game for a setting that will hopefully have a Mystara feel to it. I'd like to capture some of the feeling of playing with the Rules Cyclopedia while using a mechanic that I enjoy and not being bogged down with details.

You will see more players who dislike having all small weapons doing 1d4 than players who think it is an improvement.

This is a very good point. I've been thinking about Combat skills and Armor and I'm wondering if I shouldn't just abstract it further, tying damage and defense to skill percentages. Maybe by using the magic level table.

Combat/Defense Table

01-20% ---- 1d4

21-50% ---- 1d6

51-100% ---- 1d8

101-150% ---- 1d10

151% < ---- 2d6

So, say Borag the Barbarian has a Combat 68% and a Defense 42%. His weapon value, no matter what he was fighting with would be 1d8+db. His armor value, no matter what he was wearing, would be 1d6. For the most part, how Borag is equipped is just flavor. He's a competent warrior. If he's not going after you with his battered and notched broadsword, he's taking you apart with a chair leg and his rugged fists and gnarly teeth. I'm thinking that Dex might be used in a similar way as Str too. You could use it to augment the Defense roll.

As an example for how magic items might work, say Borag had The Mighty Cleaver of Doom or Some-Such. It adds +2 to the damage roll and inspires a supernatural fear in his enemies, making them fight at a -20% to their Combat roll.

Thoughts?

So I think APP/CHA should remain as a characteristic. I would rather re-describe it as "The ability your character has to exert his or her influence in a social context."

The thing with charisma is that some people don't ever use it, but some use it a lot - to determine whom it is that NPCs consider the leader etc. I think enough people use it to be worth keeping it, even if it ends up a dump-stat for some groups.

Chaot wwill have the answer for this but I'm a guessin' that a player's choice of where to put there skill points will have a greater impact on their facility in social interactions than the presence or lack of APP/CHA.

In my normal games Cha plays a big roll. For this though, I think Communication, Mercantilism, and Thievery can cover the bases well. As it stands, I'm seriously thinking about dropping Int too. Knowledge and Lore cover anything that Int might be used for. The stats would shake out as the three physical and the one spiritual/magical. As far as game balance goes, I fully expect that all PCs will wind up with at least some magic skills. I'm also thinking about snagging the alternative mp system from Gods of Law.

Moving tangentially if you were to have a social analogue of hitpoints then again social skill percentage is going to be important still. (In the same way that Con is important in determining physical hit points but weapon skills stop Con being the uberstat in fightfests)

APP never makes you good at fighting or magic, which makes it a less appealing characteristic than others. There are even times when being handsome or gorgeous is a disadvantage (remember James Bood RPG ?)...

I really need to post my Social Status/Reputation rules that I alluded to in another thread. Gotta dig the things up first though. Just to reiterate, I'm not a Cha hater (though I think renaming it App is a step in the wrong direction) I just don't think it adds enough for this style of game to be included as a Stat. As it stands, I think I'm going to be dropping Siz, Int, and Pow.

Still, I'm not entirely happy with this magic system yet either. I'm going to be giving it some thought. Things are still in a state of flux.

First, I have to say I like Chaot's minimal system :)

Thank you. :)

Watch, I'll probably end up doing a bunch of work and then end up using Classic Fantasy for my fix. :)

70/420

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In my normal games Cha plays a big roll. For this though, I think Communication, Mercantilism, and Thievery can cover the bases well. As it stands, I'm seriously thinking about dropping Int too. Knowledge and Lore cover anything that Int might be used for. The stats would shake out as the three physical and the one spiritual/magical. As far as game balance goes, I fully expect that all PCs will wind up with at least some magic skills. I'm also thinking about snagging the alternative mp system from Gods of Law.

Surely by the same token Brawl, Craft skills, Dodge and the various weapon skills can cover anything STR and DEX do - pretty much leaving you with CON and POW. Thinking about it, there'd be nothing wrong with that. Attributes are the fortitude of your body and the fortitude of your mind with everything else represented by skills. Would that be too stripped down, or is it something to consider?

Edited by Byron Alexander
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Surely by the same token Brawl, Craft skils, Dodge and the various weapon skills can cover anything STR and DEX do - pretty much leaving you with CON and POW. Thinking about it, there'd be nothing wrong with that. Attributes are the fortitude of your body and the fortitude of your mind with everything else represented by skills. Would that be too stripped down, or is it something to consider?

Having played RuneQuest, the first thing I noticed with the Mongoose ruleset is that the Athletics roll that replaces STR tests and the like is bugged. A female character needed to lift a dead enemy to recover her stuff, and the only thing we had to simulate this was the Athletics roll. I found the result very unsatisfactory: the agile ranger had an excessive chance to lift the bulky warrior's corpse. The lack of realism in this case more than offsets the gain in simplicity.

Also see the example in HeroQuest 2 about the difference in the Run Fast ability between the cowboy and his horse. The skill simply does not tell you how fast you run, just how likely you are to use the ability to overcome a challenge. You still need a measure of how fast you and the horse can run in order to know if a task is possible at all (credibility chek in HeroQuest terms).

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So, say Borag the Barbarian has a Combat 68% and a Defense 42%. His weapon value, no matter what he was fighting with would be 1d8+db.

As an example for how magic items might work, say Borag had The Mighty Cleaver of Doom or Some-Such. It adds +2 to the damage roll and inspires a supernatural fear in his enemies, making them fight at a -20% to their Combat roll.

This is exactly how HeroQuest works. Nothing matters but your character's ability to cope with the situation. Equipment is an ability of its own.

If you wish to adopt this approach, I think you should stop grinding BRP in order to make it more HeroQuest, and go for the real thing. It's as simple as typing HeroQuest – Glorantha | Your Gateway to Adventure in your browser.

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Oddly enough, HeroQuest probably has some sort of secondary or tertiary influence in my current approach to gaming despite me not having read the rules directly. This mainly comes through reading the mechanics and a half remembered article about coupling HeroQuest with RuneQuest and the tendency for fanciful 'joke' skills being included included in some character write ups. It manifests as me throwing in personal characteristics, associations, and quirks as skills to be used to impact a given scenario.

That being said, HeroQuest has been on my to-buy list for a very long time. At first I put it off because I'm just not that into Glorantha. Then I got excited about Mythic Russia, but let it fall to the wayside. It is a book I ned to pick up.

If you wish to adopt this approach, I think you should stop grinding BRP in order to make it more HeroQuest, and go for the real thing.

I've a rather sever allergy to d20s, so I'm afraid I'd be grinding there too. :D

But really, I'm just hashing some stuff out in a public forum because I've no goal to publish and I know the folks 'round these parts like talking BRP. I've been thinking about your posts, stat wise, and it's making me rethink cutting Siz, Int, and Cha.

70/420

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Dropping SIZ could be an idea, it takes away some calculations, but it also forces you to use STR to evaluate a lot of details for which you used SIZ before (can I lift the dead brontosaur? can I knock Big Baddie into the river?).

Dropping SIZ is quite workable and since STR must by definition be based on muscle MASS and hence SIZ a character's minimum mass could be based on STR quite easily (with room for extra mass for body fat).

That's a good solution. I'm thinking more and more about dropping SIZ.

SGL.

Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub!
b1.gif 116/420. High Priest.

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If you make it a straight STR=SIZ you run the risk of SIZ 3 adult humans, though, and if you make it STR+3 or something you run the risk of SIZ 24 adult humans!

What about making SIZ equal to STR+CON/2, so that you have it for things like spells which work on SIZ (for which neither STR nor CON is a good substitute), making HP equal to CON and working out damage bonus based on STR.

That'll give a good reasonable SIZ, imo, and also make SIZ far less important... I really don't see how you can do without it for spells like Invisibility, though - without substantially re-writing the spells.

(Obviously, in a setting without magic, doing without SIZ is much easier.)

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For a rules-lite approach that is similar to HQ, you might also want to look at the FUDGE and FATE systems.

I think there is a big question of interpretation as to what is 'rules lite' or not. For me, FATE is not a rules lite game system. It's more complex than BRP in it's application, even if it has a shorter skills list.

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I think there is a big question of interpretation as to what is 'rules lite' or not. For me, FATE is not a rules lite game system. It's more complex than BRP in it's application, even if it has a shorter skills list.

I agree with the comment. FATE v2 was good, yet lacked some focus. Then FATE v3 came out (Spirit of ...) with a similar set of initial core ideas, yet spends 90% of a large document providing meta-rules and explaining how to use them, which seems counter productive compared to the promised simplicity.

I recommend at least looking at FATE v2 as it might spark a few ideas regarding skills, stats and task resolution (and possible ideas regarding stripping down BRP).

http://www.faterpg.com/

Edited by dragonewt
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I mean, I've never really got how a robust and healthy individual with a big frame can be physically weak? But there you go: RPG systems, like physics, aren't perfect.

They could have a really weak immune system. That'd make them more susceptible to complications from injury and give them a low CON resistance. That makes pretty good sense to me.

Alright, it's a bit unusual but it's not completely unreasonable.

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