Kralori Primer

[Runeblogger]

So Paul Baker has published this Kralori Primer on the Jonstown Compendium, containing lots of GM notes to run a campaign in Kralorela with RQG (for just 4$!).

At the same time, there's a manuscript by David Milliams waiting to be published as an official book by Chaosium. 😲

Even if Paul's supplement does not match what we will get later from Chaosium, I still think the amount of material available at the Compendium is great. 🤗

Edited August 15, 2020 by Runeblogger

[redmoongoddess]

Ugh, it uses that stupid "vaguely chinese" font on the cover, IMHO that font is too tied to a history of people using it in relation to orientalist views of chinese people (or asian people in general) to be used on the closest thing to China in Glorantha without coming off as being unintentionally racist. Hopefully the actual content of the book avoids the same mistake, but I can't say without reading it, and frankly I sorta don't wanna with that font choice. Sorry, but it's how i feel.

[Jason D]

5 hours ago, redmoongoddess said:

Ugh, it uses that stupid "vaguely chinese" font on the cover, IMHO that font is too tied to a history of people using it in relation to orientalist views of chinese people (or asian people in general) to be used on the closest thing to China in Glorantha without coming off as being unintentionally racist. Hopefully the actual content of the book avoids the same mistake, but I can't say without reading it, and frankly I sorta don't wanna with that font choice. Sorry, but it's how i feel.

I strongly suggest communicating with the author and voicing your opinion. 

[Exubae]

redmoongoddess: I'm a little shocked by your prejudice, commenting on, and passing judgment on something you haven't even taken the time to read. But each to their own.

But here is the reason for the font selection: It was the only free Brush style font I could find, but if you have any alternatives I will happily consider them....

Internally I have used Kanji characters, which I'm planning to change after ideas given to me by Kakegawa.

After-all this is Kralorela not Japan, Korea, China, or Tibbet, so I have tried to flavour the setting with ideas from a multitude of cultures without become a slave to them.

I will admit to being influenced by Dream of the Red Chamber & The Heroes of the Water-Margin, and I do draw from a variety of eastern cultures.

The only thing that is wholly Chinese are the names and name structure Surname, Forename, and Style name.

The Document is also a work in progress, and is an active campaign, so will change and grow.

I intend to release additional notes every month or so.

 

 

[Dissolv]

I don't see anything remotely problematic with it.   Quite a few of our local Asian restaurants use that sort of font.     I'm not about to tell my local Korean family that they are culturally appropriating an incorrect and offensive Chinese font while they try to sell me made up chinese-american menu items. 

 

[Exubae]

Also, I for one will be buying David Milliams' Kralorela book when it gets published.... but it could be awhile...

And to give David his due, his work on Kralorela in Rules one was the initial source of inspiration for the work.

 

 

[redmoongoddess]

@Exubae You aren't Asian like the Korean family who's selling "made up chinese-american menu items", you're more open to believing in racially insensitive stereotypes about chinese and asian people in general than they are, and IMHO using a font that's universally known as literally an "chinese take out font" without doing any form of research to how certain Asian people do find it offensive, shows you seem to not realize that there's a ton of orientalist nonsense in Kralorian lore that has been criticized by many people (Including, again, actual Asians) that you should be avoiding when trying to flesh it out.

Seriously, anyone who isn't familiar with the country in Gloranthan lore who sees that cover is going to think "Chinese stereotypes" as soon as they see the font, if your intent is to not just be "fantasy china' than imho you should try better than that.

But even then, when I showed the cover to a few other users on a discord server, they pointed out to me that the Symbol on the cover resembles a Bagua without the Yin-Yang in the center, that is also Not Good. You can't just take an still used religious symbol like that and remove the Yin-Yang and say it's a new symbol. Frankly, it looks like you're just pulling out random things from different Asian cultures but without any regard for how to naturally reconstruct them in the context of a fantasy setting like canon Glorantha did with stuff from European and Central Asian cultures. That's known as "Cultural Appropriation" and it's a term that's rarely used as a good thing.

I would gladly judge the book based on things more than it's cover, but the preview only contains so many pages, and I don't wanna pay 3 dollars for something I worry I'll dislike. Sorry, hopefully at least part of this response will encourage you to do better in the future

...Also it's Tibet.

[Ian Absentia]

9 hours ago, Dissolv said:

I don't see anything remotely problematic with it.   Quite a few of our local Asian restaurants use that sort of font.     I'm not about to tell my local Korean family that they are culturally appropriating an incorrect and offensive Chinese font while they try to sell me made up chinese-american menu items. 

 

Le sigh.  You managed to cite quite a few things about it that are problematic.

!i!

Edited August 29, 2020 by Ian Absentia

[Dissolv]

13 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

Le sigh.  I think you managed to cite quite a few things about it that are problematic.

I do not. 

However you are welcome to travel around the globe telling random people what they should or should not do based on your own quite foreign to them point of view.  Because that's not setting yourself up as knowing more or being better than them.  Not at all.  I am sure that they have been waiting for someone enlightened to step in and help them.

I am also sure that they will give your opinion the time it deserves.

[Richard S.]

Y'all just take it to PMs or something

[Bill the barbarian]

A quick word to the wise

There is a lot of coded language that can go into this, and some that already has, but most important is that respect should be used first and foremost. I see this blowing up to stupid heights very soon. I am with Ian, but I do not wish t be told I am a (fill in the blank), because I have stated an opinion! I should have the right to an opinion, I have fought all my life for such a right!  I am quite happy to shoulder the responsibility to accept those who disagree with me having an opinion and a right to said opinion as well. In these days where people are being shot for their colour, I do not want to see one of my fave  places on the internet decending that horrible slope to hell and intolerance that takes up so much of the traffic of a place I had a hand in building (the web). Oh web of such great possibilities, what have we wrought. 

Anyway, please I beg ya, if you can not speak in nice tones without recriminations, presumptions and bad tastes, let it go,

PEACE

ETA sorry @Richard S.  I did not see this as I was writing mine

Remember what Thumper’s Ma said!

Edited December 14, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Exubae]

I have changed the font (though the product image is incorrect at the moment) after talking to some of my peers on JC group, but as mentioned  the project is work in progress and all fonts will likely change if it ever passes in to electrum.  The release of the Primer was more of an experiment on my part to see how the market liked stage releases to a possible printed version.

The Primer

Is material from a personal campaign that is being played out at the moment, the concept was to share the experience with a nominal fee for the product to cover my time in typing up my notes. 

The Font is and remains a nightmare - I wanted something that looks brush and Ink, and is legible, but the 'Asian Brush font' I used was still rubbish in the clarity stakes, and wasn't particularly dragony either. 

By the way the font wasn't the infamous 'Wonton' which was mention in numerous articles  (Jeez, I hate using this phone, can never get the hang of it )

The price per page is cheap to reflect its under-development status, though the paths a great deal of the material is tied to mysticism so probably has less reuse for other locations in Glorantha.  Also every two months or sooner I'll be adding to the Primer, currently there are 2 additions 12+ pages each and a third on the way.

Do you worry about the Greek font in the other books, which carries a similar load as the 'Chinese' font does for the Chinese, which is why I do not use that.

But admit at the time I was unaware of the impact of Wonton.

If anyone does see any issues with the content please contact me rather than fire it off at the board, I'd rather fix it without the hassle. I must admit I took RedMoodGoddess initial post badly, so sorry to everyone for going off on one.

I might turn Tibbet into an island in Kahar's sea (as I mentioned I hate phones)

Edited September 6, 2020 by Exubae

[Exubae]

RedMoodGoddess: Every culture since the beginning of time appropriates from other cultures, its how we've developed.

Also Glorantha is a big bag of cultural appropriation, you can see the origins of most cultures in Glorantha and map them to their RW origins if you that way inclined and have the time.

Yep it resembles a Bagua, it was supposed to a certain extent.

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Exubae

[Bill the barbarian]

This is a tough subject and though it should be old and familiar, it is not. We are all finding our way forward (yes one can say “all”? Optimistic, yes but I like it that way) and with luck we are also holding out a helping had to bring those of us who are having trouble navigating it along with us. Without redmoongoddess Ian and myself taking a position and Crel and others taking another this might not have come to the good (better?) point . Without Exubae admitting a problem we would not have this learning experience moving in a good direction

Baby steps, folk!

Edited September 6, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[g33k]

Rather than argue in our own little bubble, I went looking.

@Exubae -- I suggest that (rather than argue with random BRPC users) you go looking too. I'll say this, however... what I see from 3 minutes with Google does not tend to support the "this is not a problem" position.
 

I look forward to seeing the updated cover!

 

[Exubae]

Still waiting for them to update the cover

 

[Exubae]

The Bagua, is actually composed of  'characters' from the i Ching;

I admit I have appropriated the book of changes and use them within the book, it is (aside the structure of folk's names) the only real world china dependant, the concept is too ingrained to remove as a lot of my scenarios hinge on them. Which is why they will remain.

But the representative nature of the I Ching characters is only comparable to, comparing Glorantha runes to Elder Futhark.

[Exubae]

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/324278/Kralori-Primer?

As mentioned I have taken on board the comments about the association of the font to China, and chosen a more neutral font. However, the I Ching style markings remains. The reason for them is explained in the text, and their inclusion harks back to a second age campaign - its removal may upset my players.

 

[Exubae]

@G33k: Found nothing when searching for Brush Stroke Fonts, other than images of family of fonts which can viewed from a certain perspective as being Chinese or Japanese.

Ideally I was looking for a more squarish font which is also Brush Stroked but with a reptilian feel.

It wasn't till I was given the offending fonts name 'Wonton' that I found the articles which convinced me to change the fonts (and the opinions of the JC Folk).

Not particularly fond of identity politics, it tends to be driven by extreme left or right wing politics which I don't want near my gaming table.

 

In truth I would actually liked to have had a font which had the characteristics of Great Seal, Xiaozhuna, or Ancient Li scripts, the documents written in this form of pictogram are beautiful and have a slightly draconic feel.

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Exubae

[Exubae]

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/324278/Kralori-Primer?affiliate_id=17244
Just finished tidying up Update 9: (18 more pages)
Aldryami and the Docks of Ordered By Length city, some elf cults, and a couple of new elementals.

Also Red Deer Saga is still available:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/327124/Red-Deer-Saga-BUNDLE?affiliate_id=17244

The Campaign set in Kralorela has entered its 20th week, and has seen Godunya leave the empire with the souls of the Empires dead to pastures green. The rise of the Kingdom of ignorance, and the loss of the northern province to the rebel exarch's horde, and it looks very much like the Empire will fall to the invaders.   Loyal Kralori scrabble to find the next emperor, but no male heir to the throne can be found.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Exubae

[Exubae]

The Kralori Primer

The combined PDF's now over 270 pages.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/324278/Kralori-Primer?affiliate_id=17244
Update 11: (16 more pages)
Dwarves/Ababadi notes, Ordered By Length city detail, some cults, and notes for the Pillars of the Gods.

Also Red Deer Saga is still available:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/327124/Red-Deer-Saga-BUNDLE?affiliate_id=17244

And the Rostakori Clan:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/318806/The-Rostakori-Clan?affiliate_id=17244
 

[TRose]

                 Looking forward to the finished project.

 But a couple of questions   While I know Kralori is not China or any other Asian country but

   Shape changer are common in Asian folktales so are we going to see any Fox Women( And Fox Men) or maybe some different types of Hsuchen like Magpies , Butterflies, Tigers etc?

I seen the Dragon Carp,any chance for a Dragon Snake? Like a White and Green one?

 

 

 

[Exubae]

I've got a section on prevalent Hsunchen + throw backs* in the campaign area that is due in the next release + the Teshnos book details other tiger shapeshifters.

*'spontaneous' Hsunchen like humans among the normal population.

[metcalph]

10 hours ago, TRose said:

   Shape changer are common in Asian folktales so are we going to see any Fox Women( And Fox Men) or maybe some different types of Hsuchen like Magpies , Butterflies, Tigers etc?

Quote

In Kralorela

Xiaowei (small city): This city is named for the foxwoman
who fell in love with the dragon mystic Wen
Tao, but despite her wiles he remained unmoved by
her efforts to seduce him. Wen Tao achieved the Void,
and, unable to join her love, the fox-woman turned
herself into the Weeping Stone outside the city gate.

Guide p280

In Vormain

Aurubdey Forest: This forest of elm and
beech is home to shapechanging animals,
including foxes, badgers, and tigers. They
can assume human form and are feared as
tricksters and killers.

Guide p533

 

[Exubae]

A lot of the animal/shape changing creatures of non Hsunchen origin I've used (only used 2) have been lesser gods/big spiritual entities and generally descendents of the Hsunchen 'gods', and are unique. The Foxwoman/Hengeyokai I have running around with the party at the moment is Raiu Hui the spirit of small luck, but she isn't really a Foxwoman persae, she is a fox spirit which can embody as a human.