Cost of Control Cult Spirit

[Ryan Kent]

My players really complained about the 2 rune point cost of Control Cult Spirit. They thought that paying the cost to control a summoned cult spirit should be included in the cost of summoning. I tentatively I agree with them but am unsure of the ramifications. Thoughts?

 

[Psullie]

Rune Point economics requires a bit of forethought for the GM. Too often players will happily drop 3-4 RP to summon a spirit to do the fighting if they know that they can get them back by the next game. As a GM consider how and when PC's can replenish their RP, and plot your games accordingly.

Personally I feel that it is fair to have the extra cost to control, the PC's are after-all starting characters, so the ability to both summon and control powerful spirits should be limited. 

[PhilHibbs]

In a convention game, Vostor summoned his fire elemental in the middle of the enemy camp and let it go what it wanted to do. Which predictably involved setting fire to everything in reach, especially as they started attacking it. So sometimes you can get by without Command.

[David Scott]

17 hours ago, Ryan Kent said:

My players really complained about the 2 rune point cost of Control Cult Spirit. They thought that paying the cost to control a summoned cult spirit should be included in the cost of summoning. I tentatively I agree with them but am unsure of the ramifications. Thoughts?

In my games it's only been an issue with beginning adventurers. With three rune points, you can only summon a small elemental and control it. However once you reach 4+, it ceases to be a problem. Squandering rune points using summoning and control was an early learning point for my players. They became much more aware of how powerful the magic was, and how not to waste it. It polarised my players into two types, those that would control and summon elementals, and those who would never bother preferring there magic.

[ChrisJ]

Of course a Initiate with a Power Crystal (available as a Boon during character generation), can pay for an NPC to cast the summon at a local Temple, and then use command cult spirit to "store" said elemental in the Power crystal.  If cast close to a Holy day the NPC and the PC will probably recover the spent RP without needing them in the intervening day or so.  Once the PC has sufficient RP they can do this themselves of course.

[Lordabdul]

On 11/8/2020 at 9:14 AM, Ryan Kent said:

My players really complained about the 2 rune point cost of Control Cult Spirit. They thought that paying the cost to control a summoned cult spirit should be included in the cost of summoning. I tentatively I agree with them but am unsure of the ramifications. Thoughts?

There's already some good advice in this thread but another option is to solve it the other way: instead of making it cheaper, make it more worth the investment. That is: when a player spends the RPs, play the elemental to its full potential. Make it useful. Play it clever. Basically, give the players something that they won't feel was overpriced after all.

[Akhôrahil]

Another aspect is that cult spirits tend to be positively inclined towards cult members, and even if they don’t, they have instinctive behaviours. Do you need to control it, or can you get it to do what you want without force?

Edited November 12, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Another aspect is that cult spirits tend to be positively inclined towards cult members, and even if they don’t, they have instinctive behaviours. Do you need to control it, or can you get it to do what you want without force?

See it as feeding them Rune points, they are divine sent so Rune points are ideal food. Once fed they do your bidding.

[CaptinDan]

My problem is with the resistance roll for control. With a large elemental it can cost 5 rune points and even with a good pow and argumentation there can be 30% chance of failure. At which point the elemental turns on you and either you have to fight it or spend another 3 rune points dispelling it. 

Since the only time you want to summon a large elemental is in dangerous situations, the fact it can all go wrong (30% of time) makes the cost seem excessive.

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, CaptinDan said:

... can be 30% chance of failure. At which point the elemental turns on you and either you have to fight it or spend another 3 rune points dispelling it.....

 

I don't understand the assumption that the elemental will turn on you.  I was under the impression that it would follow its own preferences,"acts in accordance with its nature"  but those might be to wander off rather than to fight.  The Bestiary p.177 says "fire elementals burn flammable materials within reach, earth elementals sink into the soil, darkness elementals flee light, and air elementals breeze around." also p.176 inset, "An elemental will not move unless told to do so.  However, an elemental automatically attacks anything caught within or on top of it."  Therefore it seems to me that if you don't summon it on top of yourself you should be fairly safe.

[Lordabdul]

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I don't understand the assumption that the elemental will turn on you.  I was under the impression that it would follow its own preferences,"acts in accordance with its nature"  but those might be to wander off rather than to fight. 

To be fair, RQG p342 specifically says that a failure when casting Command Cult Spirit results in the elemental becoming "hostile to the caster". I generally don't interpret that as "the elemental fights the caster", more like "the elemental is annoyed that the caster tried to control it, and may hinder the PCs". I treat the spirit as genuinely angry towards the PCs on a fumble of the command spell only.

But yeah, like @Akhôrahil said, in many cases the players don't even need the control spell in the first place anyway (at least not at my table). If the party is fighting Chaos creatures, for instance, pretty much any cult spirit will attack those creatures by default. There's no need for giving out a command unless you want it to do something specific (defend an NPC, protect an area, transport something/someone, target a specific enemy, block someone's path, etc). Same thing for a Fire/Sky spirit while fighting Darkness people, or vice-versa... the full sentence is "acts in according to its nature and cult affiliation" (it's for elementals but I apply it to all cult spirits). The "cult affiliation" part is important, I think.

Again, the players are dumping a fair amount of Rune Points to summon a cult spirit, so the GM should be lenient enough to make it worth their investment. That includes not making it too punishing when they fail their castings. The MGF rule definitely applies here. Spirits are fun. Don't discourage players.

Edited November 16, 2020 by lordabdul