Species max for Pow Gain roll

[Stephen L]

The thread on Baboons as adventurers has reminded me of something I’m not so keen on. 

P 417 of the rules suggests a species maximum is pretty much unchanged from RQii/iii (the max rolled + numbers of dice rolled) (with minor variations to excite rules lawyers) 

But P 418 for making a Pow Gain roll, there is a different calculation: Max rolled + Min rolled, which I don’t like.  That means a baboon with 2D6+6 Pow has a “Pow species max” of 26, so a 40% chance of increase at Pow 18.  Baboon shamans rock!

How are people playing this?

[Godlearner]

Max rolled + Min rolled. 2D6+6 Pow has a “Pow species max” of 26

Yeah, elves rock as well.

[French Desperate WindChild]

18 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

The thread on Baboons as adventurers has reminded me of something I’m not so keen on. 

P 417 of the rules suggests a species maximum is pretty much unchanged from RQii/iii (the max rolled + numbers of dice rolled) (with minor variations to excite rules lawyers) 

But P 418 for making a Pow Gain roll, there is a different calculation: Max rolled + Min rolled, which I don’t like.  That means a baboon with 2D6+6 Pow has a “Pow species max” of 26, so a 40% chance of increase at Pow 18.  Baboon shamans rock!

How are people playing this?

I didn't notice but

let say a species with POW 2D6 + 10

p417 the max pow  is 21 (18 + (2+1) )

p418 the roll is  34 - your POW ( 22 + 12)

combining the two, that means you have a POW of 20, you have 70% ( (34-20) x 5) to gain 1 point and now yout pow is at the max.

well... that seems weird . So the question is

do you follow both rules,

do you follow p417 and % roll is ((max - actual) x5)

do you follow p418 and max species is max roll + min roll

before you notice the point, I used p417 only. Now... hum

 

[kirinyaga]

I believe the new system is the one from p417 : max+1/die+1/6 bonus (meaning each +1 to +6 count as one die)

So, 2D6+10 would be 22+2+2=26, and 2D6+6 is 18+2+1=21.

Chances to increase is (max-current) * 5% (15% for a 18POW baboon).

[Runeblogger]

I like it that baboon shamans can be so powerful. 🙂

[French Desperate WindChild]

41 minutes ago, kirinyaga said:

I believe the new system is the one from p417 : max+1/die+1/6 bonus (meaning each +1 to +6 count as one die)

well I put +10 because I was not sure of the +1 /6 but the rules say +1 too (I agree your system seems to me more consistent)  :

p52 maximum characteristic :

Quote

If the characteristic concerned has an addition, such as 2D6+6, the remaining addition is considered as one die.

in another hand, same page :

Quote

Though it may vary over time, POW cannot normally rise above the total of the maximum possible rolled POW plus the minimum possible rolled POW.

 

so in both chapters we have the same delta between "all characteristics" max, and pow increase.

I m lost 😛 

[Godlearner]

To determine if POW increases, add the adventurer’s maximum rollable POW not including any Rune characteristic modifier (i.e., 18 for humans) plus the minimum rolled POW (3 for humans)..

Humans roll 3d6 so its 21

Baboons roll 2d6+6 so its 26

[Akhôrahil]

I think it's ridiculous that Characteristic Gain has weird special rule that's completely different from racial maximum, so I go with [Racial Maximum - Current Value] for everything.

It'd be pretty crazy to research POW in the first place, too, when it's so easily raised by other means while other stats aren't, so I doubt it will ever come up.

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

RQG p.52:

Quote

Species maximum amongst the various races portrayed
is the maximum dice roll plus the number of dice. For
example, the species maximum for 3D6 is 21 (6+6+6+3).
If the characteristic concerned has an addition, such as
2D6+6, the remaining addition is considered as one die.

Bestiary p.6:

Quote

Species maximum amongst the various races portrayed
is the maximum dice roll plus the number of dice, as with
humans. If the characteristic concerned has an addition, such
as 2D6+6, the remaining addition is considered as one die.

My rule is maximum + dice + 1 per +6 bonus or fraction thereof.

Sorry, didn't see @kirinyaga already said this.

Edited January 13, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Akhôrahil]

10 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

RQG p.52:

Bestiary p.6:

Correct, but characteristic gain follows a rule that's completely different from Racial Maximum: 

"To determine if POW increases,
add the adventurer’s maximum rollable POW not including
any Rune characteristic modifier (i.e., 18 for humans) plus
the minimum rolled POW (3 for humans)."

"If done by research, the player must first roll to determine
if the research is successful by adding together the adven-
turer’s maximum rollable characteristic value (not including
any Rune characteristic modifier) plus the minimum rollable
characteristic value."

And then the example for POW gain is back to Species Maximum, even though it's not in the actual rule. And Soul Expansion on p. 361 says that since Species Maximum is increased, POW gain chance increases. It's a complete mess.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, Stephen L said:

How are people playing this?

RAW, you need to keep racial maximum separate from characteristic gain calculation, which means that you could in theory have a chance to to gain a characteristic point which would then either exceed racial maximum (unlikely) or get flushed down the drain. This would be instantly obvious if humans didn't by chance have the same value in each.

I ignore the rules on p. 418 - characteristic gain is [Racial maximum] - [Current], which is the obvious way to run it, even though RQG makes up a completely new rule here.

For additional weirdness: Shaman Soul Expansion increases Species Maximum for POW for the Shaman, but this has no effect on POW Gain Rolls...

Edited January 13, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

It's also silly that a creature with a stat of 10d6 has a racial maximum of 70, while one with 5d6+30 - better by any standards - has a racial maximum of 66. Fortunately, this is easily patched by the obvious houseruling of letting 30 here count as 5d6 for species maximum purposes instead of 1d6. 

[Shiningbrow]

On 1/14/2021 at 5:41 AM, Akhôrahil said:

For additional weirdness: Shaman Soul Expansion increases Species Maximum for POW for the Shaman, but this has no effect on POW Gain Rolls...

Except, it specifically says it does! So, instead of a human having species max of 21, it'd now be 22... (I presume the same for cults that offer Gifts as well, although I am aware that some on here wouldn't).

[Stephen L]

On 1/13/2021 at 5:30 PM, kirinyaga said:

I believe the new system is the one from p417 : max+1/die+1/6 bonus (meaning each +1 to +6 count as one die)

So, 2D6+10 would be 22+2+2=26, and 2D6+6 is 18+2+1=21.

Chances to increase is (max-current) * 5% (15% for a 18POW baboon).

This is what I remember the RQiii to be (but my memory is never to be trusted).

I'm perfectly happy with how things worked for RQiii, so this is how my RunQuest is working (until someone comes up with any compelling reason otherwise)

On 1/13/2021 at 9:41 PM, Akhôrahil said:

RAW, you need to keep racial maximum separate from characteristic gain calculation

As an (erstwhile) physicist, I'm more than happy things asymptotically approaching a limit, so I don't see the need to keep racial maximum separate from characteristic gain calculations

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Except, it specifically says it does! So, instead of a human having species max of 21, it'd now be 22... (I presume the same for cults that offer Gifts as well, although I am aware that some on here wouldn't).

Yes, exactly. P. 361 says it affects species maximum and hence POW gain rolls, while p. 481 doesn’t involve species maximum in the first place. It’s a clear contradiction.

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, Stephen L said:

As an (erstwhile) physicist, I'm more than happy things asymptotically approaching a limit, so I don't see the need to keep racial maximum separate from characteristic gain calculations

Don’t get me wrong, I think this is absolutely the way to do it - use Species Maximum instead. But it’s not what the actual rules say.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[kirinyaga]

Yep, it's pretty clear to me there is a blatant inconsistency in the rules here. And I remember we already discuss this at length and the official position was gain roll are calculated by (max-current)*5% and max was max+1/die+1/6.

[Stephen L]

1 minute ago, kirinyaga said:

official position was gain roll are calculated by (max-current)*5% and max was max+1/die+1/6

Many thanks for the clarification, and apologies to all for bringing something up that's done and dusted.

However, I did check the rules clarifications thread first, and couldn't see anything there. 

Of course that doesn't rule out a fail on my search-RuneQuest-Lore-web-site roll, since my skill levels are rather limited.

[kirinyaga]

I could not find anything in the rules clarifications either, an addition is needed as the rules are so obviously unclear here. 

[Shiningbrow]

53 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

Of course that doesn't rule out a fail on my search-RuneQuest-Lore-web-site roll, since my skill levels are rather limited.

I see your problem here! It's supposed to be "Corrections and Well of Daliath Library Use", not a Lore roll....

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Yes, exactly. P. 361 says it affects species maximum and hence POW gain rolls, while p. 481 doesn’t involve species maximum in the first place. It’s a clear contradiction.

Ruling is out, Expand Soul doesn’t help with POW gain rolls. 

I think all of this is nonsense and I will keep using Species Maximum for POW gain instead of this weird oddball rule.

[Shiningbrow]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

Ruling is out, Expand Soul doesn’t help with POW gain rolls. 

I think all of this is nonsense and I will keep using Species Maximum for POW gain instead of this weird oddball rule.

Where's this ruling from?

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Stephen L said:

Many thanks for the clarification, and apologies to all for bringing something up that's done and dusted.

However, I did check the rules clarifications thread first, and couldn't see anything there. 

Correct, this is not official. Any static modifier, whether +1 or +100, counts as one die.

You should very likely houserule this, as it makes no sense.

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

Where's this ruling from?

QA thread.

[PhilHibbs]

You're right, this is a crazy clarification.