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Population Density: Dragon Pass & Holy Country


jajagappa

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Here are Jeff's FB notes on population density for Dragon Pass & Holy Country.

Sartar
So to get a feel for population density, a rough eyeball for Sartar (including the Dragonewt Wilds and the Far Place) is about 7200 square miles or 18,900 square kilometres. If we ignore the dwarves and any purely temporary groups, there are about 194,000 sentients living in Sartar, which gets about 27 people per square mile or about 10 people per square kilometre.
That's about basically the norm for a low density agrarian society and about half the density of Classical Greece (see Zimmermann, Andreas; Hilpert, Johanna; and Wendt, Karl Peter (2009) "Estimations of Population Density for Selected Periods Between the Neolithic and AD 1800," Human Biology: Vol. 81: Iss. 2-3, Article 13. Available at: http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/ humbiol/vol81/iss2/13). Which seems about right given how urbanised Sartar is (Boldhome, Alda-Chur, Wilmskirk, Jonstown, Swenstown, and Alone, plus numerous smaller towns).
 
Q: Since that's including relatively sparsely populated but fairly large areas, I presume that Sartar's core areas are closer to classical Greece in density, which feels subjectively right- mountainous, but plenty of fertile ground rather than sea.
A: yes, absolutely right
 
Lunar Tarsh
Lunar Tarsh, which covers a roughly comparable area, has a population of roughly 18 people per square kilometre, or 50 per square mile. That's roughly high medieval France or actually about the same as Classical Greece.
 
So basically, what you can get from this is that Sartar has a bunch of agrarian valleys that might have a population density of 18 per square kilometre or almost 50 per square mile. Or more. But then you also get a lot of empty - the Quivin Mountains, the Thunder Hills, the Forloss Hills, the Yellow Hills, and other woodlands.
 
Remember, there are roughly two or three hides per square kilometre. So an average clan occupies one WBRM hex, that means there are about 130 hides of cultivated land, and another 70 hides in herds and livestock, per cultivated hex.
 
Q: Outside the megalopoli, does Esrolia share similar density with Lunar Tarsh/Classical Greece?
A: nope. Significantly higher. I'll post numbers later.
 
So Sartar has a population density of about 10 people per square km, and Lunar Tarsh about 18 people per square km.
 
Esrolia
Esrolia is WAY more densely settled. North Esrolia has only about 3000 km2 (or less than half the area of Sartar), but has 500,000 people. That's 166 people per square km. If we remove Nochet from the mix, it is still about 130 people per square km.  That's Nile Valley density. That's the Low Countries in the Renaissance.
 
So everywhere you go in North Esrolia, there will be settlement and intensive agriculture. There's no "wild land".
 
if you travel in Esrolia, every 4 or 5 kilometres has another village, surrounded by farms. If we think of each village having about 16 km2 agricultural land, that means we have clusters of about 2000 people, with lots of little farmhouses, but most of the folk living in a large village, with its Ernalda major temple (with shrines to the other Earth goddesses) and minor temple to Barntar or Orlanth Thunderous and shrine to Argan Argar. And then 4 km away is another one. And another 4 km and another one.
 
Heortland
Heortland, in contrast is about 38 people per km2, which gets us in the vicinity of Roman Italy. It is much more settled than Sartar, but far less than Esrolia.
It means that Heortland under Belintar has become a settled land, with lots of village, but spaced a little further apart than Esrolia, and more on the population scale of the Sartarite clans (around 1300 on average). But most of the plateau is now agricultural land.
 
in Heortland, there's been quite a lot of deforestation on the Heortland Plateau. Since the Dragonkill War, the population of Heortland has probably more than doubled since its Second Age height.
 
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5 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I subconsciously associate Esrolia with the riverine lowlands of Tamil Nadu. A bit different climate

It's certainly lowlands and quite warm.  It's in the rainshield of the Caladraland mountains, though, so fairly dry.  Perhaps not unlike the central valley of California.

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it gives me some questions about Sartar.

is there some land that are not claimed by any Tribes and Temple ? I mean can someone/new clan/ adventurers / strangers  claim a land for itself, without any challenge from an existing community ?

 

Sartar is both urbanized and sparsely populated. That could be because opportunity (we have enough food, we don't need more farmers, so go to the town) or because constraint (we have no land available to harvest,  we cannot support more farmers, so go to the town)

Are all fertile lands already exploited or some are availabe ?

And mix of the two previous questions : do you think there are some unclaimed territory viable to establish a new community ?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

is there some land that are not claimed by any Tribes and Temple ? I mean can someone/new clan/ adventurers / strangers  claim a land for itself, without any challenge from an existing community ?

Snakepipe Hollow! 😉

In all likelihood, the Bush Range is the closest to this - an area depopulated in the aftermath of Lunar invasion.  I think this is why the village of Renekot's Hope (Pegasus Plateau) is set in that area. 

Another area might be the Marcher County between Heortland and Prax. 

Generally, I think fertile lands will be occupied unless there's been a recent disaster (i.e. the Great Winter). 

6 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

do you think there are some unclaimed territory viable to establish a new community ?

Most likely you need to boot out others or get agreement to settle or overcome some hostile forces (e.g. Telmori wildlands, the border of Troll country in Dagori Inkarth, the Dwarf Run, the Spinosaurus Flats).

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5 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

it gives me some questions about Sartar.

is there some land that are not claimed by any Tribes and Temple ? I mean can someone/new clan/ adventurers / strangers  claim a land for itself, without any challenge from an existing community ?

 

Sartar is both urbanized and sparsely populated. That could be because opportunity (we have enough food, we don't need more farmers, so go to the town) or because constraint (we have no land available to harvest,  we cannot support more farmers, so go to the town)

Are all fertile lands already exploited or some are availabe ?

And mix of the two previous questions : do you think there are some unclaimed territory viable to establish a new community ?

 

 

There are a few places left for settlement in Old Sartar, but you are going to have to do clearing!

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1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

It's certainly lowlands and quite warm.  It's in the rainshield of the Caladraland mountains, though, so fairly dry.  Perhaps not unlike the central valley of California.

That's fairly apt, as most of Tamil Nadu lies in the rainshadow of the Western Ghats, with Kerala being wetter - except during the east-Indian monsoon season (I'm not an expert on this, so I could be a bit off). 

Regardless, just offering it as a visual/general inspiration for anyone reading this. They're both broad, largely flat lands with rivers criss-crossing them, high levels of development, densely populated, with a focus on regional cities and highly sedentary village communities, and more or less semi-tropic in climate. There are obviously significant differences, but hey!

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7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

do you think there are some unclaimed territory viable to establish a new community ?

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Snakepipe Hollow! 😉

 

Good one, though I suppose there might be a wee (not worth mentioning really) bit of a challenge!

Edited by Bill the barbarian

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

do you think there are some unclaimed territory viable to establish a new community ?

I have a feeling this was the purpose to Borderlands and Dorastor: Land of Doom. Both allow the creation of a clan away from the crush of people. 

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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I wonder whether the ratio of humans to potentially arable land is much different between Sartar and Heortland. Possibly higher in Sartar, as the non-arable lands provide pasture that allows dairy to supplement grain harvest.

Some of the places "you would have to clear" include the Colymar Wilds and Telmori lands, I suppose.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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14 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I have a feeling this was the purpose to Borderlands and Dorastor: Land of Doom.

And plenty of space in the Big Rubble too! 

18 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I suppose there might be a wee (not worth mentioning really) bit of a challenge!

It's even equipped with a temple to get you started. 😉

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4 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I have a feeling this was the purpose to Borderlands and Dorastor: Land of Doom. Both allow the creation of a clan away from the crush of people. 

For sure, but I was focusing Sartar, I dislike sand and chaos, and need clear water.

I m civilized, man, I understand you prefer some more rustic activity like broo hunt, but I prefer duck foie gras 😛

 

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11 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I m civilized, man, I understand you prefer some more rustic activity like broo hunt, but I prefer duck foie gras 😛

Got some nice real estate for you then - island views, plenty of water at the junction of several rivers, good Duck hunting and all.  Current owner's an old chap named Delecti. Been expanding the habitable area of late.  Very open to inquiries.

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23 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I m civilized, man, I understand you prefer some more rustic activity like broo hunt, but I prefer duck foie gras 😛

 

I got nasty habits / I take tea at three / Yes, and the meat I eat for dinner / It must be hung up for a week / My best friend, he shoots water rats / And feeds them to his geese!

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... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Got some nice real estate for you then - island views, plenty of water at the junction of several rivers, good Duck hunting and all.  Current owner's an old chap named Delecti. Been expanding the habitable area of late.  Very open to inquiries.

Fixing that swamp would be a lot easier than making the Sartar Roads... with the advantage of making navigable channels where boats can move merchandise... then when Wet Delecti becomes Dry Delecti is a matter to clean up the lowlands of walking fertilizers (other name for Zombies) and voila !!! fertile grounds with plenty of organics and extra calcium.

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