Hrestol in RQ:G

[Godlearner]

Quote

For me, the worship of Ompalam is divided among the slave estates with the Masters as the high priests of the estate.  The Fonritans have no civic/bureaucratic structure as that would be an obstacle to Ompalam's demands for power.  Having their yads (ie their favourite slaves) practice the equivalent of Rightness would only increase the power of the Masters against each other and be good in their eyes, no?

I would not disagree that in some places that certainly exists, but to me that seems like a plantation model of slavery which can only exist in cases where a particular high demand commodity, requiring a large labor pool, is present. In our history that would be sugar, cotton, tobacco or drugs. All of these require a whole sale demand in quantity which point to large scale commercial centers, that is cities (basic blocks of civilization). Once we start talking cities, we start talking bureaucracy, civil servant slaves. A pyramidal structure with Jann at the top.  

[Richard S.]

On 3/19/2021 at 5:54 AM, metcalph said:

Caste Magic:

I think that most Caste Magic (ie non Zzaburi) is sorcery.  There's several different models that could be used (such as the RQ3 Godunya shortform magic in which the worshipper could expend POW to cast sorcery).  But I think it likely that rightness acts as a intensity limit (ie a Rightness of 3 means only spells with an intensity of up to 3 points can be cast) with the magic points being provided by the Malkioni (and may be INT as a limiter on the amount of caste magic that can be known).

Rather than there being a standard caste magic list for everybody in that caste, most Malkioni have occupation lists.  For example, the caste magic of a horseman (ie Enhance DEX, CON) will be different from that of a footsoldier (Enhance STR< CON).  Commoners will have caste magic based on what guild they belong to.  The Zzaburi's caste magic abilities will be based on their order while the Talar's is based on what Great House they are a member of (and they would have more extensive caste magic than lower castes).

The current approach seems to be that sorcery is the domain of the Zzaburi alone, since with the exception of Dormal's Open Seas spell you need knowledge of runes and techniques to cast any, and those are only taught to wizards. From the two examples we've gotten hints towards (the Zzaburi and Talar), I think it's more likely they're just passive abilities whose power varies based on Rightness. The Zzaburi probably can store MP up to their Rightness, and I wouldn't be surprised if it increased their Free INT some as well (which I think would account for the abilities of an NPC sorcerer we've seen but I can't remember the name of). Talars probably can just force obedience in other Malkioni of lower Rightness, maybe with an opposed POW check or an expenditure of Rightness though.

[metcalph]

25 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

I would not disagree that in some places that certainly exists, but to me that seems like a plantation model of slavery which can only exist in cases where a particular high demand commodity,

I didn't describe a plantation economy but a mafia one.  The city masters hate each other and hate the neighbouring cities even more.  They sort out the running of the city by sorting out who does what through a process of violent incursions and sit-downs.  The Fonritans don't have a civil service bureaucracy any more than the Roman Republic or Sartar does.  Public works are carried out by the masters beacsue it is their responsbility (assigned to them by the other masters) or through self-interest (if I don't fix the walls, the untaxed smugglers will get through).

Now could we please wrap this particular subtopic up as its not RQ and not within the thread?

 

[metcalph]

17 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

The current approach seems to be that sorcery is the domain of the Zzaburi alone,

Until Jeff recently revealed Caste Magic, which I had just been discussing,

17 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

since with the exception of Dormal's Open Seas spell

Open Seas is an example of a spell that is taught to other castes.  It is not necessarily the only such spell and I can think of a number of other spells that might be taught to lower caste Malkioni (for example the Loskalmi might have Medespiction, Venerate Saint etc).    None of these types of spells are ever going to be as useful as spirit magic but they will fulfil a particular niche with Malkioni society

17 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

 From the two examples we've gotten hints towards (the Zzaburi and Talar), I think it's more likely they're just passive abilities whose power varies based on Rightness.

In RuneQuest, all magic is one of three types: sorcery, spirit magic or rune magic.  Which would caste magic fall under?  They are not spells in the RQG rules but they would still be sorcery IMO.  Or to look at it another way, the Talar's forced command.  What would more likely be the basis for that?  The Command Worshippers rune spell (RQG p324) or the Dominate Human sorcery spell (RQG p394).  

 

17 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

The Zzaburi probably can store MP up to their Rightness, and I wouldn't be surprised if it increased their Free INT some as well (which I think would account for the abilities of an NPC sorcerer we've seen but I can't remember the name of). 

And the problem with my suggestion that the Zzaburi caste magic is sorcerous version of Shamanic Abilities (RQG p360 and onwards) is what?  I don't believe that Zzaburi would have conceal fetch or cure disease but they would have Magic Attack, Magic Defence and some sorcerrous version of Expanded Presence, Power Within, Spell Extension and Soul Expansion.  With a bit of creative lisense, the Spirit Affinity, Spirit Defense and Spirit Mastery abilities could be adapted to spells that use a particular rune.  

[Richard S.]

2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Open Seas is an example of a spell that is taught to other castes.  It is not necessarily the only such spell and I can think of a number of other spells that might be taught to lower caste Malkioni (for example the Loskalmi might have Medespiction, Venerate Saint etc).    None of these types of spells are ever going to be as useful as spirit magic but they will fulfil a particular niche with Malkioni society

Open seas is a cult secret of the Dormal cult, and the fact that non-sorcerers can even learn it has been said to be a unique accomplishment of his iirc.

4 minutes ago, metcalph said:

In RuneQuest, all magic is one of three types: sorcery, spirit magic or rune magic.  Which would caste magic fall under?  They are not spells in the RQG rules but they would still be sorcery IMO.  Or to look at it another way, the Talar's forced command.  What would more likely be the basis for that?  The Command Worshippers rune spell (RQG p324) or the Dominate Human sorcery spell (RQG p394).

What is Dragon Magic? Illumination? The innate abilities of certain magical creatures? Are they sorcery, spirit, or rune? There is a ton of magic outside the sorcery/spirit/rune division.

6 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Until Jeff recently revealed Caste Magic, which I had just been discussing,

What reason do you have to believe that it's sorcery though? The other three castes already use rune and spirit magic, why can't it be based on those if it has to be based on one of the three? And why can't it be something entirely unique?

[metcalph]

2 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Open seas is a cult secret of the Dormal cult, and the fact that non-sorcerers can even learn it has been said to be a unique accomplishment of his iirc.

I find this sort of hand-waving hard to believe.  

2 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

What is Dragon Magic? Illumination? The innate abilities of certain magical creatures? Are they sorcery, spirit, or rune? There is a ton of magic outside the sorcery/spirit/rune division.

I had already addressed Dragon Magic in the post you were responding to and illumination has no cast magic.

2 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

What reason do you have to believe that it's sorcery though? The other three castes already use rune and spirit magic, why can't it be based on those if it has to be based on one of the three? And why can't it be something entirely unique?

Let's see.  The people are Malkioni famous for their study of sorcery.  Why would it not be sorcery?  That you didn't bother to engage with the example of the Talar's magic suggests further debate with you will be fruitless.  So bye.

[Richard S.]

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

I had already addressed Dragon Magic in the post you were responding to and illumination has no cast magic.

You said "in Runequest, all magic is of one of three types". I was responding to that part by stating things which don't fall into any of those three categories. I wasn't trying to say they were types of caste magic, just that they were neither sorcery, spirit, nor rune magic.

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

I find this sort of hand-waving hard to believe. 

That's not handwaving, that's how the designers have said it's being treated. Dormal's cult teaches Open Seas to all initiates, which is a sorcery spell but can be cast without knowledge of runes and techniques for 9mp, with no manipulation allowed unless the caster actually is a sorcerer who knows its runes and techniques.

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

Let's see.  The people are Malkioni famous for their study of sorcery.  Why would it not be sorcery?  That you didn't bother to engage with the example of the Talar's magic suggests further debate with you will be fruitless.  So bye

Zzaburi are famous for sorcery, yes, but non-Zzaburi are not sorcerers and do not use it, as Jeff revealed in the impromptu con. They worship their ancestors (some of whom are gods), initiate to cults, and use rune and spirit magic like most of the rest of Genertela. If you want to know my thoughts on whether the Talar ability will be closest to Command Worshippers or Dominate Humanoid I say Dominate Humanoid, though not because I think it's any sort of sorcery spell, but instead because I think the effect will be similar, if not as mind control-y and probably more limited in who it can affect. Command Worshippers isn't even that much about commanding, since it doesn't actually compel obedience from the summoned Orlanthi besides the compulsion to gather to the caster, after which they're free to do whatever.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Richard S.

[Frp]

As a GM I wouldn't want my players to build up a reserve of Rightness or to gain any advantage if they did. Always being one failure away from being shunned by society, and the invisible one, fits the vision of Malkioni society I've built up over the years. Getting a free pass to break a taboo because you're got a couple points stored wouldn't. Maybe if you violate a taboo you should go straight to zero no matter how righteous you are. Or maybe players shouldn't know, and have no way of guessing, what their Rightness score is. 

But lots of play testing will be required to iron out the details of caste magic, and even "the Chain of Veneration", for that matter.

I'm just happy more of Malkioni society has been thought through than I expected.

[kr0p0s]

On 3/16/2021 at 5:25 PM, kr0p0s said:

Some castes have special abilities – magical abilities of the caste members. 

This is what Jeff said about caste magic above. I don't think it can necessarily be restricted to spell effects, whether sorcerous or otherwise. There are lots of special abilities within the RQ:G system from spirit powers, cult gifts, heroquest abilities etc that can be described as magical. In that caste abilities derive from RIGHTNESS and following the strictures of Malkion they are sorcerous in nature, but wouldn't require any understanding of Sorcery per se. They are a manifestation of Law within the material world.

[metcalph]

5 minutes ago, kr0p0s said:

This is what Jeff said about caste magic above. I don't think it can necessarily be restricted to spell effects, whether sorcerous or otherwise. There are lots of special abilities within the RQ:G system from spirit powers, cult gifts, heroquest abilities etc that can be described as magical. In that caste abilities derive from RIGHTNESS and following the strictures of Malkion they are sorcerous in nature, but wouldn't require any understanding of Sorcery per se. They are a manifestation of Law within the material world.

Consider there exists a caste magic being the equivalent of Heal Wound or the spirit magic heal spell.  That's better than the sorcerous healing spell of Mend Flesh.  Which then raises the question of why don't the Zzaburi use that instead of Mend Flesh?  And if the Caste Magic is better than the equivalent rune or spirit magic why are the non-Zzaburi fooling around with spirit and rune magics?  Hence my feeling that caste magic has to be sorcerous in form and not just in name.

 

[kr0p0s]

6 hours ago, Frp said:

Always being one failure away from being shunned by society, and the invisible one, fits the vision of Malkioni society I've built up over the years. Getting a free pass to break a taboo because you're got a couple points stored wouldn't. Maybe if you violate a taboo you should go straight to zero no matter how righteous you are. Or maybe players shouldn't know, and have no way of guessing, what their Rightness score is.

I like the idea of not knowing your RIGHTNESS score, and what point losses go with breaking taboos. You would have a rough idea of your RIGHTNESS from any abilities you have gained, but, depending on caste, especially the dronar you would always be worried about your RIGHTNESS. 

Jeff said "A character with a negative RIGHTNESS may be expelled from their caste by their elders." This implies a caste ability of talars to see RIGHTNESS and judge accordingly. If you can keep dodging the local talar, you should be fine!

[kr0p0s]

23 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Consider there exists a caste magic being the equivalent of Heal Wound or the spirit magic heal spell.  That's better than the sorcerous healing spell of Mend Flesh.  Which then raises the question of why don't the Zzaburi use that instead of Mend Flesh?  And if the Caste Magic is better than the equivalent rune or spirit magic why are the non-Zzaburi fooling around with spirit and rune magics?  Hence my feeling that caste magic has to be sorcerous in form and not just in name.

 

The caste magical abilities will enable the individual castes to perform better - Zzaburi to deal with sorcery, Talars to lead, Horali to fight, Dronar to produce. You will have abilities that enhance INT,  allow you to command Dronar,  enhanced Battle skill, increase craft skill or output etc. This is all speculation, but I imagine won't be direct spell effects, just magical powers linked to their current RIGHTNESS. 

Horali and Dronar will have access to spirit healing magical through worship of war gods and local goddesses. However, I imagine that it will be relatively weak. They won't have access to Heal 6, routinely. Except through a visit to the wise woman of dubious RIGHTNESS, out in the wood who whispers to spirits.

[kr0p0s]

12 minutes ago, kr0p0s said:

The caste magical abilities will enable the individual castes to perform better - Zzaburi to deal with sorcery, Talars to lead, Horali to fight, Dronar to produce. You will have abilities that enhance INT,  allow you to command Dronar,  enhanced Battle skill, increase craft skill or output etc. This is all speculation, but I imagine won't be direct spell effects, just magical powers linked to their current RIGHTNESS. 

Further, its reasonable to assume that these abilities may scale with RIGHTNESS? As you attune with the expectations of your caste, your ability to express you caste ideal increases. Thus a Zzabur’s INT continues to be enhanced, a Talars POW with respect to commanding Dronar increases etc.

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, kr0p0s said:

The caste magical abilities will enable the individual castes to perform better - Zzaburi to deal with sorcery, Talars to lead, Horali to fight, Dronar to produce. You will have abilities that enhance INT,  allow you to command Dronar,  enhanced Battle skill, increase craft skill or output etc. This is all speculation, but I imagine won't be direct spell effects, just magical powers linked to their current RIGHTNESS. 

The Talar's Forced Command ability: why would it be restricted to Dronar?  USing it to command other humans or other Malkioni seems plausible to me.  Why would it not be an active spell effect?  Would the Talars have to expend magic points  for it work?  If so, then why not the rest of the other non-Zzaburi?  

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, kr0p0s said:

Further, its reasonable to assume that these abilities may scale with RIGHTNESS?

Simply having a max intensity equal to your rightness seems fair and proper.  Why re-invent the wheel?

 

[kr0p0s]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Talar's Forced Command ability: why would it be restricted to Dronar? 

It wouldn't,  I was just giving an example. I imagine Talar could be able to command both Hrolari and Dronar. This couldn't be used on those outside Malkions caste system, since they are unruly barbarians and Elder races that cannot be exhorted to conform to RIGHTNESS. 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Simply having a max intensity equal to your rightness seems fair and proper.

I may be misunderstanding you, but only the Zzaburi, and possibly some Talar, have an understanding of sorcery. Hrolar and Dronar use spirit magic. They would have no use of the an ability to increase their manipulation of intensity. Sorcery is proscribed for their castes.

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

Simply having a max intensity equal to your rightness seems fair and proper.  Why re-invent the wheel?

 

Ummm... Because people want and expect different abilities?? Not sameness.

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, metcalph said:

Consider there exists a caste magic being the equivalent of Heal Wound or the spirit magic heal spell.  That's better than the sorcerous healing spell of Mend Flesh.  Which then raises the question of why don't the Zzaburi use that instead of Mend Flesh?  And if the Caste Magic is better than the equivalent rune or spirit magic why are the non-Zzaburi fooling around with spirit and rune magics?  Hence my feeling that caste magic has to be sorcerous in form and not just in name.

 

Perhaps such use of Rightness reduces your Rightness?? And thus, would be used sparingly.

It would replenish slower than MPs, but faster than RPs.

[Nevermet]

On 3/16/2021 at 7:44 AM, kr0p0s said:

3. It is the responsibility of mortals to make a world they can live in. This creed was formed in the early Dawn Ages when humans were weak and few. Its focus is always towards humans, their survival and later their dominance, rather than on co-existence or cooperation with the rest of the cosmos.

This is a very random point, and I'm not making a claim that they are historically related, but this reminds me strongly of the Velortinian Principle in Pelandan philosophy as found in the Entekosiad: "Humans are responsible for the world, even if/though the gods are not."

[Joerg]

Do the Rokari watchers have magic to assess (and possibly alter) Rightness?

[metcalph]

9 hours ago, kr0p0s said:

I may be misunderstanding you, but only the Zzaburi, and possibly some Talar, have an understanding of sorcery. Hrolar and Dronar use spirit magic. They would have no use of the an ability to increase their manipulation of intensity. Sorcery is proscribed for their castes.

What I have been suggesting is that Caste Magic is Sorcery as it is derived from the Law Rune.  It is not the magic of the Zzaburi which is permitted only to them, is less flexible and effective than spirit or rune magics, but it is a form of sorcery permitted for the other orders to know.  Hence statements like "Sorcery is proscribed for their caste" is IMO irrelevant as that's referring to the sorcery of the Zzaburi.  

I really don't understand what you mean by have no use for an ability to increase their manipulation of intesity.  Consider two horali, both who know Enhance STR as part of their caste magic.  One has a rightness of three while the other has a rightness of ten.  The might righteous horali can cast a higher strength Enhance STR.  How is that not useful.

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Ummm... Because people want and expect different abilities?? Not sameness.

Why would a horali or commoner have different spell-effects than the Zzaburi?

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Perhaps such use of Rightness reduces your Rightness?? And thus, would be used sparingly.

Why would the use of, say, mend flesh reduce Rightness?  It's permitted to know and use.

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

It would replenish slower than MPs, but faster than RPs.

Again, I'm not seeing the reason why Rightness should be a brand-new form of magic when magic points work just fine in limiting overuse.

[kr0p0s]

On 3/16/2021 at 5:25 PM, kr0p0s said:

Each caste has restrictions which must be followed to maintain their RIGHTNESS. Some castes have special abilities – magical abilities of the caste members

As Jeff implies some castes, I imagine any magical abilities will be restricted to Zzaburi and Talar castes. No goodness for the lower castes. Note the term magical abilities. This implies something more specific than a generic increase in intensity manipulation.

We shall have to wait until the powers above drip down some more juicy information. 

[Richard S.]

48 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Consider two horali, both who know Enhance STR as part of their caste magic.  One has a rightness of three while the other has a rightness of ten.  The might righteous horali can cast a higher strength Enhance STR.  How is that not useful.

Part of the point that me and I believe kr0p0s are trying to make is that those Horali would not know Enhance STR, and even if they did they could not manipulate it. Learning sorcerous spells is the domain of sorcerers who have trained for years to master runes and techniques. There are limited exceptions in the form of cult secrets like Open Seas, but, because it can be cast without knowing runes and techniques, that can't even be manipulated unless the caster is a sorcerer. It's been established that non-Zzaburi use Rune and/or spirit magic, and any sorcery they need is cast by Zzaburi who have trained their whole lives to learn it. From the two hints at abilities we have combined with what we know of western magic already, it seems highly unlikely that they'll be % skills that have to be trained, like sorcery spells, and instead closer to cult gifts or shamanic gifts or rune magic in terms of mechanics. Even if the lore behind them is that they're derived, like sorcery, from universal laws, they most likely aren't sorcery themselves.