where can I see JarEel martial prowess ?

[French Desperate WindChild]

Hello, I would like to watch JarEel fighting in battle, somewhere between 1612 and 1618

Prince of Sartar gives 1614 in Palbar but do you know any other site / date ? (I know Boldhome but 1602 is to old)

For example did she participate in the starbrow rebellion ?

 

thanks in advance !

[jajagappa]

You'll find reference in the Glorantha Sourcebook: "She defeated a slave revolt in Oraya in 7/42 (1614) and obtained the undying loyalty of its erstwhile leader, Beat-Pot Aelwrin."  This triumph also appears in the Prince of Sartar comic where she slaughters the slaves.

It's her only noted battle in the time period you reference.

She did not participate in Starbrow's Rebellion - that was left entirely to General Fazzur of Tarsh to resolve.

In 1616, she's on her Heroquest to defeat/dismember Belintar the God-king.  Probably required a year+ in preparation (and maybe she even participated in the 1614 Tournament of Luck and Death to pave the way two years later). 

Her temple in Glamour opens in 1617 and the Moonsword cult is fully established then.  After that I think she is mostly debating the White Moon heretics until she is sent east in 1624+ to deal with the Pentan invasion.

So, overall, if you want to see her fight in that time period, I think you have to go to Oraya.

Edited March 30, 2021 by jajagappa

[Sir_Godspeed]

Isn't there a Pentan invasion sometime during this period?

[scott-martin]

31 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

debating

This is my favorite euphemism. I imagine the sky opening and the air turning into water, fire turning into crystal that shatters at a kiss or a glance. Lights in the deep. Colors pulsing on and off the rainbow like strings on a fussy harp, planets dancing like some juggler's act. Smog. Madness. Glamour. All those cosmic pivot SFX as the lunar visions clash.

At the end I'm not sure what happens with the White Moonies but it probably isn't fun for many. "Fierce, terrible and glorious." The last miracle of the Eel family as the corn grows as high as a dragon's eye. Shadow of Lunar Hero Wars to come.

A shadow of "luck and death" fluttering like a bat's wing if you keep your eyes open.  They probably argued theology a little now and then too.

[jajagappa]

21 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Isn't there a Pentan invasion sometime during this period?

There's the slave revolt in Oraya (i.e. the Redlands) in 1614, but no Pentan invasion then. 

Pentan raiders begin to appear in 1621, but the main invasion begins in 1624.  A Lunar army suffers a significant defeat in 1625 and the Red Emperor has to appoint Jar-eel to lead the effort against Dranz Goloi, King of the Wings.  GS p.189 "The Red Emperor appointed his demigoddess Jar-eel the Artess to command the remaining imperial armies.
In 8/1 (1626), Dranz Goloi suffered his first reversal when the Lunar Army, led by Jar-eel, riding atop the Crimson Bat, routed him outside the walls of Blessed Torang, and revealed herself to be the incarnation of the Red Goddess in the Third Battle of Chaos."

[jajagappa]

10 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

This is my favorite euphemism. I imagine the sky opening and the air turning into water, fire turning into crystal that shatters at a kiss or a glance. Lights in the deep. Colors pulsing on and off the rainbow like strings on a fussy harp, planets dancing like some juggler's act. Smog. Madness. Glamour. All those cosmic pivot SFX as the lunar visions clash.

Yes, indeed.  Yet they must have had some powerful figures on the White Moon's side to present a significant threat to the Red Emperor and to "debate" to any extent against Jar-eel.  Illuminated certainly.  Steeped in Lunar Lore.  Heroquesters of some degree to have explored the potential of the White Moon.  Did they "recruit" Teelo Norri herself, the ultimate innocent Moon goddess?  Or someone like Valare Addi who might be able to question the foundational myths of the Lunar Empire?

[jajagappa]

There are definite gaps in Jar-eel's history. 

In 1602 she helps conquer Boldhome (at age 14).

In 1610 she enlightens or liberates Moirades (age 22).

In 1611 she gives birth to the son of Moirades, Phargentes. 

Then she next appears in 1614 to fight the slave revolt and gain Beat-pot as her best friend/chief priest, in 1616 to dismember Belintar, and in 1617 to found the Moonsword temple.

What happens to her between 1602-1610?  She was born with all seven souls fully awakened, so doesn't need to do that.

I did find a note in GS p.17 under the FHQ Virkala: "Virkala’s beauty and grace was renowned throughout Dragon Pass and the Lunar Provinces, but was challenged by Jar-eel and defeated. She died under mysterious circumstances in 1610."  Suggests a Heroquest challenge against the Earth Goddess - a challenge of beauty and arts?  Virkala was also Queen of Dragon Pass, spouse of Moirades, so clearly Jar-eel had to defeat her in order to win over Moirades.  This probably took at least a year of planning & effort.

How long does she spend with her son between 1611-1614?  Does she raise him in Glamour (I think likely) or Tarsh (with a half-brother who might just as likely kill off the rival)?

How and when does she train the Bloodspillers Regiment that forms the heart of the Moonsword cult?  (Must be between 1614 and 1617.  Do they help her train and prepare to defeat Belintar?)

GS p.21 also notes: "Jar-eel, for example, illustrates the fine value and artistic accomplishments in the divine act of separation from the source, using her edged blades and wit to cast moonlight upon the dividing philosophies of the Outer World."  How and where did she demonstrate this?  There's no references to her coming to Dragon Pass (or even Tarsh) until the Battle of Heroes, so that suggests she is in and around the Lunar Heartland, or possibly Carmania.

[scott-martin]

23 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

She was born with all seven souls fully awakened

1589 leads the thaw of Riverjoin so it's not hard to imagine a busy baby.

One day soon we might find out what kind of talent White Moon had and what remains. MGF suggests there must be a rebel faction left alive beyond 1625, otherwise there'd be no real joy in setting up the story hook and then barring the players from ever participating.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

So, overall, if you want to see her fight in that time period, I think you have to go to Oraya.

let s go 1000km far from Sartar.... Hoping the road would be well maintained!

 

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

let s go 1000km far from Sartar.... Hoping the road would be well maintained!

Maybe Jar-eel takes her son on "Tours" of the Empire.  Work in a Tour of the Oslir (or a Tour of the Glowline), bringing him back to Tarsh perhaps in 1615 or 1617 to see the land he may inherit.

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

There are definite gaps in Jar-eel's history. 

In 1602 she helps conquer Boldhome (at age 14).

In 1610 she enlightens or liberates Moirades (age 22).

In 1611 she gives birth to the son of Moirades, Phargentes. 

Then she next appears in 1614 to fight the slave revolt and gain Beat-pot as her best friend/chief priest, in 1616 to dismember Belintar, and in 1617 to found the Moonsword temple.

What happens to her between 1602-1610?  She was born with all seven souls fully awakened, so doesn't need to do that.

There is more to the Red Goddess than just awakening the seven souls - I think Teelo Estara achieved that when she returned for the First Battle of Chaos.

At some time, Jar-eel would have to absorb the secrets of the Blue Moon. And there are the examples of Hon-eel to study and follow, and to overcome.

 

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I did find a note in GS p.17 under the FHQ Virkala: "Virkala’s beauty and grace was renowned throughout Dragon Pass and the Lunar Provinces, but was challenged by Jar-eel and defeated. She died under mysterious circumstances in 1610."  Suggests a Heroquest challenge against the Earth Goddess - a challenge of beauty and arts?  Virkala was also Queen of Dragon Pass, spouse of Moirades, so clearly Jar-eel had to defeat her in order to win over Moirades.  This probably took at least a year of planning & effort.

How long does she spend with her son between 1611-1614?  Does she raise him in Glamour (I think likely) or Tarsh (with a half-brother who might just as likely kill off the rival)?

I would expect her to retreat to her maternal family, the Eel-ariash clan, which has a long expertise raising magical prodigies, and probably has an infant educational system that makes even the most ambitious modern achiever parents look like slackers.

 

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

How and when does she train the Bloodspillers Regiment that forms the heart of the Moonsword cult?  (Must be between 1614 and 1617.  Do they help her train and prepare to defeat Belintar?)

GS p.21 also notes: "Jar-eel, for example, illustrates the fine value and artistic accomplishments in the divine act of separation from the source, using her edged blades and wit to cast moonlight upon the dividing philosophies of the Outer World."  How and where did she demonstrate this?  There's no references to her coming to Dragon Pass (or even Tarsh) until the Battle of Heroes, so that suggests she is in and around the Lunar Heartland, or possibly Carmania.

Hon-eel is the Artess, and her significant skills in the arts of entertainment would be a good vehicle for her interactions with the White Moonies. Lollapalooza rather than Moonfire and brimstone.

 

[jajagappa]

13 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There is more to the Red Goddess than just awakening the seven souls - I think Teelo Estara achieved that when she returned for the First Battle of Chaos.

Yes, clearly the case.  And Jar-eel doesn't achieve her apotheosis until she returns for the Third Battle of Chaos riding upon the Crimson Bat.  It is interesting that this happens after the disappearance of the White Moon city, and that this quest forces Jar-eel to "miss" the Dragonrise.

15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I would expect her to retreat to her maternal family, the Eel-ariash clan, which has a long expertise raising magical prodigies, and probably has an infant educational system that makes even the most ambitious modern achiever parents look like slackers.

Quite possible.  Which could mean her son is in Karantes, or on the Red Moon (I'm sure the Eel-ariash have a place there as well as in the Inner City of Glamour), or even at the temple at Mount Jernotius.  What we don't know is whether Jar-eel plays a part in this or not.

18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

At some time, Jar-eel would have to absorb the secrets of the Blue Moon. And there are the examples of Hon-eel to study and follow, and to overcome.

Probably those of the Black Moon too.  And I'm sure Jar-eel has to get herself out from under the "shadow" of Hon-eel - both to know it, and then to show she is not that, but something else.

[Sir_Godspeed]

A tour to get to know the various scions and branches of the Eel-Ariash, and to get to know the Imperial administration and vassals seem like as good a guess as any. Aristocracies run on personal relationships, after all.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Sir_Godspeed

[scott-martin]

13 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

A tour to get to know the various scions and branches of the Eel-Ariash

A doubloon to the person or heroquest team who gets this into the Jonstown Compendium. Essential to a Lunar Hero Wars. 

[Eff]

On 3/29/2021 at 10:34 PM, scott-martin said:

1589 leads the thaw of Riverjoin so it's not hard to imagine a busy baby.

One day soon we might find out what kind of talent White Moon had and what remains. MGF suggests there must be a rebel faction left alive beyond 1625, otherwise there'd be no real joy in setting up the story hook and then barring the players from ever participating.

There's an entire city which has disappeared beyond anyone's acknowledged ability to access. Perhaps it's the core of a growing White Moon, or perhaps it's on the Red Moon, or still in the Middle World, but only visible to those who have the eyes to see... 

I also have to wonder if some of the other acknowledged demigod children of the Red Goddess, like Moonson's Cousin, are involved with the White Moon. They'd have some real authority and they're a lacuna in "official" Lunar history...

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Eff said:

There's an entire city which has disappeared beyond anyone's acknowledged ability to access.

I've always wondered where exactly the city of the White Heart was before it disappeared?  Probably referenced somewhere, but can't recall ever seeing it.

[metcalph]

18 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I've always wondered where exactly the city of the White Heart was before it disappeared?  Probably referenced somewhere, but can't recall ever seeing it.

Haar Zaal in Oraya (Guide p316).

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Eff said:

I also have to wonder if some of the other acknowledged demigod children of the Red Goddess, like Moonson's Cousin, are involved with the White Moon. They'd have some real authority and they're a lacuna in "official" Lunar history...

That seems very likely. 

If we consider the five great families:

- Eel-ariash - busy with the Jar-eel project, working to position her kid as the next Moonson, etc.  Since Jar-eel is off debating the White Moon leaders, not likely supporting them.

- Assiday - busy with the New Lunar Temple in Dragon Pass and defining Yelm over Orlanth. 

- Tharkalists - busy entertaining Moonson and keeping control over the court in Glamour.  Not likely interested in the White Moon.

- Yanoriao-ilart - pushed Eel-ariash out of Doblian.  Embroiled in Dart Competitions, including the one that unleashed Harrek on the prior Mask.  I suspect Moonson is keeping a close eye on them, though they are patrons of the Lunar College of Magic.  But seem less likely as White Moon supporters.

- Valar-telsor - "They are notorious for their tendency to ally against whoever is the most powerful of the other clans. They are patrons of the Natha temple and of several schools of Illumination."  They seem like very good candidates to push for the White Moon, and Valare Addi was a very important heroquester (e.g. Entekosiad).

Of course, there are plenty of other unnamed children of Moonson.  I like the idea the Flower Poem, (Guide p.307) the demigoddess leader of the Taran-il of First Blessed and one of the Egi, might be a proponent of the White Moon. 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

If we consider the five great families

However, it's also worthwhile to keep in mind that any of these families (as well as the other satrapal families and varied Moonson lineages) also have cadet branches, junior members, sibling rivalries, ne'er-do-wells, and all the other assorted shady dealers and hangers-on that want something from the powerful and wealthy.  Any number of these folk could well have joined the White Moon Rebellion for any number of reasons.

[Joerg]

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

- Eel-ariash - busy with the Jar-eel project, working to position her kid as the next Moonson, etc.  Since Jar-eel is off debating the White Moon leaders, not likely supporting them.

Unless they grew really Macchiavellan and set up the White Moon movement as a way to make their project shine even more. Having an entire city of White Moon worshipers secured away in an otherwise unaccessible fold in the Otherworld might be a good preparation for what comes after the inevitable utuma of the Red Moon.

[Sir_Godspeed]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Unless they grew really Macchiavellan and set up the White Moon movement as a way to make their project shine even more. Having an entire city of White Moon worshipers secured away in an otherwise unaccessible fold in the Otherworld might be a good preparation for what comes after the inevitable utuma of the Red Moon.

Galaxy brain plays.

[Eagle Talon]

On 3/29/2021 at 10:07 PM, jajagappa said:

There are definite gaps in Jar-eel's history. 

In 1602 she helps conquer Boldhome (at age 14).

In 1610 she enlightens or liberates Moirades (age 22).

In 1611 she gives birth to the son of Moirades, Phargentes. 

Then she next appears in 1614 to fight the slave revolt and gain Beat-pot as her best friend/chief priest, in 1616 to dismember Belintar, and in 1617 to found the Moonsword temple.

What happens to her between 1602-1610?  She was born with all seven souls fully awakened, so doesn't need to do that.

I did find a note in GS p.17 under the FHQ Virkala: "Virkala’s beauty and grace was renowned throughout Dragon Pass and the Lunar Provinces, but was challenged by Jar-eel and defeated. She died under mysterious circumstances in 1610."  Suggests a Heroquest challenge against the Earth Goddess - a challenge of beauty and arts?  Virkala was also Queen of Dragon Pass, spouse of Moirades, so clearly Jar-eel had to defeat her in order to win over Moirades.  This probably took at least a year of planning & effort.

How long does she spend with her son between 1611-1614?  Does she raise him in Glamour (I think likely) or Tarsh (with a half-brother who might just as likely kill off the rival)?

How and when does she train the Bloodspillers Regiment that forms the heart of the Moonsword cult?  (Must be between 1614 and 1617.  Do they help her train and prepare to defeat Belintar?)

GS p.21 also notes: "Jar-eel, for example, illustrates the fine value and artistic accomplishments in the divine act of separation from the source, using her edged blades and wit to cast moonlight upon the dividing philosophies of the Outer World."  How and where did she demonstrate this?  There's no references to her coming to Dragon Pass (or even Tarsh) until the Battle of Heroes, so that suggests she is in and around the Lunar Heartland, or possibly Carmania.

I'm looking ahead in the hero wars but as for battles of Jar-Eel there is a mystery (or misunderstanding) about the battle of heroes. The iconic battle between Jar-Eel and Harrek finally happens. The result is Harrek killing Jar-Eel and left somewhat of a cripple from his wounds. However Jar-Eel is later comes back in the hero wars. What happened to her? Resurrected in a hero quest or perhaps Harrek fought another lunar hero instead? My sources are from King of Sartar so may be a little biased towards orlanthi. 

[jajagappa]

15 minutes ago, Eagle Talon said:

However Jar-Eel is later comes back in the hero wars. What happened to her? Resurrected in a hero quest or perhaps Harrek fought another lunar hero instead? My sources are from King of Sartar so may be a little biased towards orlanthi. 

She has to find her way out of the Underworld and Land of the Dead.  It's a thing heroes can do.

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Eagle Talon said:

I'm looking ahead in the hero wars but as for battles of Jar-Eel there is a mystery (or misunderstanding) about the battle of heroes. The iconic battle between Jar-Eel and Harrek finally happens. The result is Harrek killing Jar-Eel and left somewhat of a cripple from his wounds. However Jar-Eel is later comes back in the hero wars. What happened to her? Resurrected in a hero quest or perhaps Harrek fought another lunar hero instead? My sources are from King of Sartar so may be a little biased towards orlanthi. 

My original (1st edition King of Sartar) theory about the Battle of Heroes was that this was *the* final series-ending battle between JarEel and Harrek inserted by error into the saga as referring to some brief first-season clash they had before.  It would have taken place when Argrath had left on the Lightbringer Quest and Harrek had briefly become King of Dragon Pass (before departing mysteriously).