Think of it as an opportunity...

[Arcadiagt5]

Right, so several of my players (in both games) have acquired hippogriffs courtesy of The Pegasus Plateau. I am, of necessity, pointing out that weapon skills are capped at their generally pitifully low* Ride (Hippogriff) skills. 

So for an archer with a Composite Bow skill of 90+ this is... painful.

But if you think of it as an opportunity to learn a new weapon... then it's not so bad. It's not like your base skill with the new weapon is likely to be much different to your ride skill. 

Think of the opportunities for additional experience checks! 

* I generally used either Base + Category Modifier, or Half (Total Ride Horse) + Category Modifier, with the caveat that you couldn't be better at riding a hippogriff that you've never seen before than riding a horse.

[soltakss]

8 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

So for an archer with a Composite Bow skill of 90+ this is... painful.

In my Glorantha, Kuschile Archery is an ability that allows you to use your full ability while mounted. That is different from the version in the rules, that has two different bow skills, which sucks.

So, just get Kuschile Hippogriff Archery and you are sorted.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Making it a new weapon skill doesn't match up with how RQG does things.  For example, there is no separate "Archery on Foot" and "Archery on Horse" and "Archery on Impala" skills.

We just base it upon the character's Ride Hippogriff skill.  Many of our PCs were cavalry and are in good shape, some not so much.  And only two PCs are any good with a bow.  Note that the Pegasus Plateau hippogriffs are young and cannot carry warriors in heavy armor.  So we haven't used them for any actual combat yet.  Though they have been handy for dropping cowpies on the obnoxious Malanni Tribe in our border dispute...

[French Desperate WindChild]

 

 

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

the version in the rules, that has two different bow skills, which sucks.

Yes I dislike the two different skills

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, just get Kuschile Hippogriff Archery and you are sorted.

I would prefer a runespell / or cult spirit spell:

you cast the spell you have you full bow skill

you don't cast or fail, you have your bow skill as written

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I would prefer a runespell / or cult spirit spell:

In contrast, I hate rules where "this simple spell makes a skill useless".  Ever since D&D.  Why be a Thief/Rogue when a wizard can just cast Invisibility?  Never liked Kushile.  I'm not so sure about Darkwalk and Silence in RQ:G. YGMV.

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

In contrast, I hate rules where "this simple spell makes a skill useless".  Ever since D&D.  Why be a Thief/Rogue when a wizard can just cast Invisibility?  Never liked Kushile.  I'm not so sure about Darkwalk and Silence in RQ:G. YGMV.

Not a problem if very few persons can know the spell. Otherwise, I fully agree with you.

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

In contrast, I hate rules where "this simple spell makes a skill useless".  Ever since D&D.  Why be a Thief/Rogue when a wizard can just cast Invisibility?  Never liked Kushile.  I'm not so sure about Darkwalk and Silence in RQ:G. YGMV.

and that is not a simple spell, that is first to worship a god, obligation to follow some strict rules, geas (ok gift too), etc..

that is be the target of a lot of powerful ennemies even if you don't want, need to negociate and accept orders from the hierarchy, obey to leave your wife and children to go to war even if you are sure that it should be better tofarm to feed your family

 

but yes i agree if you consider spells just as "power" without "pain", it is not the same

 

[Arcadiagt5]

9 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Making it a new weapon skill doesn't match up with how RQG does things.  For example, there is no separate "Archery on Foot" and "Archery on Horse" and "Archery on Impala" skills.

We just base it upon the character's Ride Hippogriff skill.  Many of our PCs were cavalry and are in good shape, some not so much.  And only two PCs are any good with a bow.  Note that the Pegasus Plateau hippogriffs are young and cannot carry warriors in heavy armor.  So we haven't used them for any actual combat yet.  Though they have been handy for dropping cowpies on the obnoxious Malanni Tribe in our border dispute...

When I said a new weapon I meant an entirely new weapon. As in a former heavy infantry type adopting a lance (with no prior training) for use astride the hippogriff. Sure, any existing skills get capped... but a brand new weapon that was never used before? That’s likely to be at the same level as the ride skill anyway. 🙂

[Rodney Dangerduck]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

that is be the target of a lot of powerful enemies even if you don't want, need to negotiate and accept orders from the hierarchy, obey to leave your wife and children to go to war even if you are sure that it should be better to farm to feed your family

Nearly every PC is already an initiate of a cult and under these restrictions and obligations.  Gaining a new "shoot fine off your hippogriff" spell from that same cult (or subcult) will add no major "pain points". 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 minute ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

When I said a new weapon I meant an entirely new weapon.

I am still confused.  Is your new skill "Lance"?  That's not an entirely new weapon, its a well known weapon in the rules.  Agreed, it may be new to that PC.  Starts at base (or maybe at some fraction of a spear skill)

Or is your skill "Lance on Hippogriff"?  That is a new weapon.  But, IMO, not the "RQG way".  There is no "Lance from Bison" skill.  Just Lance, capped by your Ride skill on your mount.

[Arcadiagt5]

31 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I am still confused.  Is your new skill "Lance"?  That's not an entirely new weapon, its a well known weapon in the rules.  Agreed, it may be new to that PC.  Starts at base (or maybe at some fraction of a spear skill)

Or is your skill "Lance on Hippogriff"?  That is a new weapon.  But, IMO, not the "RQG way".  There is no "Lance from Bison" skill.  Just Lance, capped by your Ride skill on your mount.

The latter - new to that particular PC. The point is that, as you also say, a skill that starts at base isn't likely to be affected by the cap & both skills will grow at more or less the same rate through experience. Agreed that there's no separate Lance on X skills, nor would I want to introduce such - that way lies madness. In the case of one of the PCs, their base Ride skill is higher than their base Lance skill would be, which is the suggestion that triggered the joke, as it's a weapon that the character in question has no prior experience or training with. 

[Shiningbrow]

On 4/3/2021 at 12:40 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Making it a new weapon skill doesn't match up with how RQG does things.  For example, there is no separate "Archery on Foot" and "Archery on Horse" and "Archery on Impala" skills.

Well actually.... 

There sort of is, and that's why Kuschile has always confused me.

All archery is basically "Archery on foot, or,at least not moving while mounted on a mount, but it's full while in a chariot that's not going too fast". 

Why start a new skill that's most likely always going to be lower than either the individual Archery (on foot...), and Ride skill to cap it - for a group of warriors that will have Ride at a high score anyway? It's more the sort of thing that reeks of HQ reward.

(Unless, of course, Kuschile is actually the "Archery while mounted, even if riding fast", and they don't have a separate "Archery while on foot..." skill. So, while on the ground, they take a penalty...???)

[Arcadiagt5]

I have to admit I don’t know anything about this Kuschile business. It really was intended to just be a joke about characters working within their pitiful Ride (Hippogriff) skills by picking up other weapons that they were equally pitiful with on and off the Hippogriffs. 

I wasn’t introducing new skills or rules, pure RAW, just a joke about working within RAW. 

[GMKen]

On 4/6/2021 at 10:16 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Well actually.... 

There sort of is, and that's why Kuschile has always confused me.

All archery is basically "Archery on foot, or,at least not moving while mounted on a mount, but it's full while in a chariot that's not going too fast". 

Why start a new skill that's most likely always going to be lower than either the individual Archery (on foot...), and Ride skill to cap it - for a group of warriors that will have Ride at a high score anyway? It's more the sort of thing that reeks of HQ reward.

(Unless, of course, Kuschile is actually the "Archery while mounted, even if riding fast", and they don't have a separate "Archery while on foot..." skill. So, while on the ground, they take a penalty...???)

My understanding is that mounted (Kuschile) archery is the ability to hit a target while the horse (or unicorn for Yelornans) is moving and the rider is bouncing around on the moving horse.  It’s a particular set of muscle memory that wouldn’t work not-mounted.  There I would apply the base archery skill plus bonus, unless of course they’ve been practicing and training.  Think of Calamity Jane - she was a sharpshooter on horseback, but also a sharpshooter on the ground.  Both skills had to be trained.  I’m decent with a handgun or rifle.  I’m decent at horseback riding.  I have zero expectation of being decent at shooting a handgun (or bow) while on horseback since I have no training or experience in that regard.

I would use the Kuschile archery skill for ranged weapons on a hippogriff, regular archery for when they are dismounted.

[Shiningbrow]

53 minutes ago, GMKen said:

My understanding is that mounted (Kuschile) archery is the ability to hit a target while the horse (or unicorn for Yelornans) is moving and the rider is bouncing around on the moving horse.  It’s a particular set of muscle memory that wouldn’t work not-mounted.  There I would apply the base archery skill plus bonus, unless of course they’ve been practicing and training.  Think of Calamity Jane - she was a sharpshooter on horseback, but also a sharpshooter on the ground.  Both skills had to be trained.  I’m decent with a handgun or rifle.  I’m decent at horseback riding.  I have zero expectation of being decent at shooting a handgun (or bow) while on horseback since I have no training or experience in that regard.

I would use the Kuschile archery skill for ranged weapons on a hippogriff, regular archery for when they are dismounted.

I'd agree, but RAW that's not the case. You're just capped at your Ride skill... Which is a bit odd. Shooting while moving (and then, while moving fast) should have much higher penalties - which get alleviated by Kuschile.

[Arcadiagt5]

39 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'd agree, but RAW that's not the case. You're just capped at your Ride skill... Which is a bit odd. Shooting while moving (and then, while moving fast) should have much higher penalties - which get alleviated by Kuschile.

Actually RAW has additional penalties for targets in relative motion. I don’t have the rules handy but it gets worse based on relative angles/speed. 

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

Actually RAW has additional penalties for targets in relative motion. I don’t have the rules handy but it gets worse based on relative angles/speed. 

Yes, but those are penalties applied to everyone. P213/214 only says that mounted archery is capped at Ride... not much of a penalty to most Praxians or Grazelanders (I'd expect them to have 35% (Homeland) + 35% (Cavalary) + Agility modifier + added bonuses. So, a minimum of 70%. Bow is going to be lower than that, because the starting skills are lower. So, in effect, capping at Ride is ineffective.

Personally, being more simulationist, I'd apply penalties based on actual movement rate... if the beast (or chariot) is moving at maximum speed, a higher penalty than if moving slowly. If there are specific penalties for this I've missed, please tell me where they're hiding in the book.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

25 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Yes, but those are penalties applied to everyone. P213/214 only says that mounted archery is capped at Ride... not much of a penalty to most Praxians or Grazelanders (I'd expect them to have 35% (Homeland) + 35% (Cavalary) + Agility modifier + added bonuses. So, a minimum of 70%. Bow is going to be lower than that, because the starting skills are lower. So, in effect, capping at Ride is ineffective.

that doesn't choked me:

praxians live on their beast, they eat on them, they drink on them, they fight on them, they... celebrate Uleria... on them maybe. 

sundomers use mounts only when the mount his better than the foot. So from a sundomer perspective to shoot someone doesn't need to be mounted, as it is not their culture to be mounted all the time.

 

 

[Arcadiagt5]

19 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Yes, but those are penalties applied to everyone. P213/214 only says that mounted archery is capped at Ride... not much of a penalty to most Praxians or Grazelanders (I'd expect them to have 35% (Homeland) + 35% (Cavalary) + Agility modifier + added bonuses. So, a minimum of 70%. Bow is going to be lower than that, because the starting skills are lower. So, in effect, capping at Ride is ineffective.

Personally, being more simulationist, I'd apply penalties based on actual movement rate... if the beast (or chariot) is moving at maximum speed, a higher penalty than if moving slowly. If there are specific penalties for this I've missed, please tell me where they're hiding in the book.

 

See also p217 which states:

Quote

There is no extra penalty for shooting from a moving animal, although an adventurer's skill is still capped at their Ride skill. A moving target at the same speed and direction will also be treated as being a standard target. All other modifiers to archery still apply to the mounted archer. (emphasis added)

So, yes, mounted archery is harder than foot archery in that you have both the cap of the Ride skill, and the x50% penalties for someone moving at a different angle or speed and the x50% penalty for evading targets (noting that these two stack). Plus any hilarity that may apply for shooting at protected targets or into melee. :)

[Shiningbrow]

22 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

See also p217 which states:

So, yes, mounted archery is harder than foot archery in that you have both the cap of the Ride skill, and the x50% penalties for someone moving at a different angle or speed and the x50% penalty for evading targets (noting that these two stack). Plus any hilarity that may apply for shooting at protected targets or into melee. 🙂

Yea, I know. But they're irrelevant to the argument, because Kuschile archers would suffer the same penalties.

Kuschile is.merely a skill (for most) that ignores a single cap (Ride), and so I see it as fairly useless, given that I imagine those most likely to have the skill would have a high Ride anyway.

If it was an ability (or even a spell), it would be a significantly different matter.

[Arcadiagt5]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Yea, I know. But they're irrelevant to the argument, because Kuschile archers would suffer the same penalties.

Kuschile is.merely a skill (for most) that ignores a single cap (Ride), and so I see it as fairly useless, given that I imagine those most likely to have the skill would have a high Ride anyway.

If it was an ability (or even a spell), it would be a significantly different matter.

If that’s all Kuschile does then I have to say I also see little value in adding it as a house rule. 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Arcadiagt5

[David Scott]

Overall, this is the problem with upgrading your mount, and is mirrored in my current game with the unmounted adventurers, not wanting mounts as they are useless to fire arrows or generally fight from without a decent ride ability. There is no quick fix, except increasing your ride (whatever skill) and becoming a member of a hero cult that lets you shoot and ride capping it at ride. Kuschile's Hero Cult is found amongst the Solar & Lunar. Orlanth and Lightbringer worshippers don't really have a horse equivalent, so your players could find and establish one. It's likely there are plenty of forgotten heroes out there, waiting to be rediscovered. Just change the name of Kuschile to some other name and add it as a hero cult to the relevant god. It has aways been said that adding hero cults will cause no problems. Finally, I'd suggest you players practice more with their mounts.

---

Kuschile Horse Archery (Manipulation, Base 00%)

This skill can only be learned by initiates of Yelmalio. Successful use of this skill allows the user their normal archery chance from horseback, regardless of their riding ability. The skill can be attempted once per arrow fired.

Learners of this skill must accept one random geas in exchange for a 25% base skill plus any skill category bonus. The skill can be trained or researched, once it has been obtained through the geas.

---

This my plan for my players:

Lhankor Mhy research will direct them to the long forgotten shrine of Belero, a second age hero known for capturing and training pegasi. The shrine will either be in the Orlanth temple at Londros or Goodfield, or in Three Emerald temple (or where ever fits locally). Initiates can learn Ride (pegasus) (00), Belero flying archery (00) and the spirit magic Control (pegasus) (1 magic point). The rune point sacrificed gets added to your relevant god's rune pool (no geas needed). Change the details as needed. I would hesitate making Command (pegasus) a rune spell as all Command (species) are 2 rune points.

 

[Arcadiagt5]

15 hours ago, David Scott said:

Overall, this is the problem with upgrading your mount, and is mirrored in my current game with the unmounted adventurers, not wanting mounts as they are useless to fire arrows or generally fight from without a decent ride ability. There is no quick fix, except increasing your ride (whatever skill) and becoming a member of a hero cult that lets you shoot and ride capping it at ride. Kuschile's Hero Cult is found amongst the Solar & Lunar. Orlanth and Lightbringer worshippers don't really have a horse equivalent, so your players could find and establish one. It's likely there are plenty of forgotten heroes out there, waiting to be rediscovered. Just change the name of Kuschile to some other name and add it as a hero cult to the relevant god. It has aways been said that adding hero cults will cause no problems. Finally, I'd suggest you players practice more with their mounts.

 

Interesting background, thanks. I'm currently running two games, one of which have had the hippogriffs for a year now and they have been pushing their Ride (Hippogriff) skills as much as they can. I've been allowing Hendroste the Horsemaster in Apple Lane to teach it up to about 50% on the assumption that Ride (Horse) is similar enough that it can be taught up to half his skill. In cases where Ride is an occupational or cult skill, they’ve been picking it as a bonus EXP check between adventures. The painful part for some of that group has been giving up heavy armour until the hippogriffs grow to average STR/SIZ of 26 (which is still a couple of years off). Two of the adventurers were already cavalry, so that helped.

The other group have only just acquired theirs, as in they haven’t even had their first flight down from the plateau yet, and are also relentlessly infantry. Heavy infantry so that’s going to be an interesting adjustment for them.

It occurs to me that Orgorvale Summer's husband, who I think was Ulanin the Rider (?), might be a suitable Orlanthi hero for an equivalent to Kuschile. 

Quote

Kuschile Horse Archery (Manipulation, Base 00%)

This skill can only be learned by initiates of Yelmalio. Successful use of this skill allows the user their normal archery chance from horseback, regardless of their riding ability. The skill can be attempted once per arrow fired.

Learners of this skill must accept one random geas in exchange for a 25% base skill plus any skill category bonus. The skill can be trained or researched, once it has been obtained through the geas.

OK,  now this is interesting. If I’m reading this right it's a separate skill entirely that, if succeeded with, allows full use of Archery on the next shot? 

Hmmm, that's actually making me think in terms of Ulanin Horse Swordsmanship (Manipulation, Base 00%) as being more appropriate to an Orlanthi/Vingkotling cult and it would work the same way.

Not sure how to handle the geas side yet. 

In terms of plan, I would link it to Orgorvale Summer somehow, just not sure of that.

I'm still reluctant to add an extra skill, but investing it in the lore of Glorantha this way certainly has some appeal.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Arcadiagt5