Subcults

[Goldennose]

If you are an Orlanth Thunderous initiate and you worship Odayla as a subcult, do you have access to all the rune spells of Odayla or just one? Orlanth Thunderous gets Bear´s Strength from it for being an associate cult anyway. Same thing with Yinkin... If you worship Yinkin as a subcult of Orlanth Adventurous, do you only have access to one spell of Yinkin?

What about Orlanth itself... If you are an Orlanth Adventurous initiate, do you have access to all Orlanth Thunderous side rune spells, if that is your subcult?

[Bill the barbarian]

13 minutes ago, Caras said:

If you are an Orlanth Thunderous initiate and you worship Odayla as a subcult, do you have access to all the rune spells of Odayla or just one? Orlanth Thunderous gets Bear´s Strength from it for being an associate cult anyway. Same thing with Yinkin... If you worship Yinkin as a subcult of Orlanth Adventurous, do you only have access to one spell of Yinkin?

 

I am afraid you have it wrong Caras, Odayla is an associated cult, not a subcult. That means that Odayla provides his ally’s cult Orlanth use of Bear’s Strength (only) to an Orlanthi Sub Cult... Orlanthi Thunderous.

ETA and you get access to Odayla’s spirt magics as well as a member of associated Orlanth Thunderous.

As to he second part of your question....

13 minutes ago, Caras said:

What about Orlanth itself... If you are an Orlanth Adventurous initiate, do you have access to all Orlanth Thunderous side rune spells, if that is your subcult?

I would not think so. You must be a Rune Priest to belong to Orlanth Thunderous, so I would think that would prevent an Adventurous initiate from accessing those spells. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Goldennose]

(Odayla is often worshiped as a subcult of the Orlanth cult.) This reads in Cult of Odayla. (Yinkin has a very small cult and is normally worshiped through Orlanth as
an associated cult.)... But i remembered wrong. It does not say so in Yinkin. It says this instead.

[Bill the barbarian]

15 minutes ago, Caras said:

(Odayla is often worshiped as a subcult of the Orlanth cult.) This reads in Cult of Odayla. 

Just read Odayla and I see what you mean, now why would they not put that in the Orlanth section as well. Especially seeing as subcults usually have special rules... I am afraid that your best option is to take this odd situation to Scotty as a Rune Question. 

ETA 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Bill the barbarian]

15 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Just read Odayla and I see what you mean, now why would they not put that in the Orlanth section as well. Especially seeing as subcults usually have special rules... I am afraid that your best option is to take this odd situation to Scotty as a Rune Question. 

 

Quote

 

The subcult has no existence independent of the larger cult. Major cults always include subcults; some cults like Orlanth have subcults of minor deities and spirits and/or dead heroes. These entities depend completely upon the central deity for existence: they are not worshiped outside the cult. Some, like Orlanth, have over a dozen commonly recognized subcults.

A subcult provides access to additional Rune spells, spirit magic, skills, or powers to initiates of the greater cult who also worship through the subcult.

 

Gave Subcults a read and grabbed the above quote from RQ RiG page 282...So we know you would have access to some spells, skills or powers, but not which. I suppose you could, if you did not want to take the question to Scotty (not sure why, but), make up your own requirements and spells , skills and powers using MGF and precedent from other subcults as your guiding principle.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Bill the barbarian

[Arcadiagt5]

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I would not think so. You must be a Rune Priest to belong to Orlanth Thunderous, so I would think that would prevent an Adventurous initiate from accessing those spells. 

Wait, what? I thought Thunderous could have initiates as well? E.g. if an Adventurer was of the Assistant Priest occupation but hadn’t qualified for Priest / God Talker yet? 

I do have one related question for subcults: does an initiate into multiple subcults tithe to each, or just to the cult as a whole? 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Arcadiagt5

[Scotty]

2 hours ago, Caras said:

(Odayla is often worshiped as a subcult of the Orlanth cult.) This reads in Cult of Odayla.

This is corrected in the upcoming gods book:

Quote

In Dragon Pass, Odayla is more often worshiped as an associated deity of Orlanth than as an independent cult. However, in Sylila and the Lunar Provinces, Odayla is often worshiped as an independent deity and his cult has not been suppressed by the Lunar Empire.

and to further clarify:

Odayla Associate cults:

FOUNDCHILD Members of both cults participate together in the same Great Hunt ceremonies and the cults are often combined.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Caras said:

If you are an Orlanth Thunderous initiate and you worship Odayla as a subcult

I don't know it there is a subcult of subcult

I understand Orlanth (subcult Thunderous)  initiates (yes initiates -> " Odayla: Provides Bear’s Strength to Thunderous " nothing about priests) get a spell from Odayla cult

Orlanth (subcult Odayla) exists but that subcult is not described in the core rules.

the questions then :

- Are all Odayla runespells directly proposed by Orlanth (subcult Odayla) or only some of them ?

- What kind of association is between Odayla cult and Orlanth (subcult Odayla) ? Does Odayla cult give spells that Orlanth (subcult Odayla) for example ?

 

[David Scott]

Think about how how an initiate of Odayla would work in Dragon Pass. It's not a widespread cult. Firstly to be an initiate you've hunted, killed and skinned a bear under the auspices of a Bearwalker. Next, there no temples to Odayla in your region (likely shrines though), so you go to the Orlanth temple and as Orlanth's brother you can worship there at the Odayla shrine and access all your rune magic. Orlanth Thunderous worshippers can access only the single rune spell.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Caras said:

What about Orlanth itself... If you are an Orlanth Adventurous initiate, do you have access to all Orlanth Thunderous side rune spells, if that is your subcult?

When you join Orlanth you choose either Adventurous or Thunderous. You have access to the shared rune magics (all subcults) and the rune magic of your specific subcult  (see page 301). Look at the Associated Cults list on page 302, associate rune spells are either available to all, or Thunderous or Adventurous subcults. If you join Adventurous you have no access to Odalya's rune spell, it's Thunderous only.

If you are a member of the Adventurous subcult, to join the Thunderous subcult, you pay a POW, add it to your Orlanth rune pool and select a rune spell (free). As you are now a member of both subcults, you have access to Odayla's rune spell (don't forget to pay...)

[Goldennose]

So if I understood right. Orlanth can be in both subcults and gain all spells from both Adventurous and Thunderous? Of course paying for rune spells normally with POW. But Odayla can not actually be subcult, even if it says so in the book? It is only associate cult granting that one spell when paid normally with POW.

 

[PhilHibbs]

52 minutes ago, Caras said:

So if I understood right. Orlanth can be in both subcults and gain all spells from both Adventurous and Thunderous? Of course paying for rune spells normally with POW. But Odayla can not actually be subcult, even if it says so in the book? It is only associate cult granting that one spell when paid normally with POW.

Yes.

The phrase "Odayla is often worshiped as a subcult of the Orlanth cult" is wrong, essentially a typo. Odayla is not worshipped as a subcult in this sense. I think the intention of this is to say that Odayla doesn't usually have its own fully-fledged worship infrastructure, it only exists within Orlanth temples. So if "subcult" didn't have its own specific game term meaning, then you could use the term in the vernacular but that would be confusing.

The forthcoming Gods Books clarify this, as Scotty says: "In Dragon Pass, Odayla is more often worshiped as an associated deity of Orlanth than as an independent cult." Consider this a drop-in replacement sentence for the other one I quoted. But still, "associated" has its own specific RQ meaning so even that is confusing. I can't think of a good phrase for it.

You could run it that way. You could, in your Glorantha, have a regional subcult "Orlanth Odaylan" which has one extra rune spell that is an Odayla spell, perhaps Claws, and maybe a spirit spell as well. If you joined both Thunderous and Odaylan then you could have  both that and Bear's Strength, but that would detract somewhat from the separate Odayla cult to have two of the three special spells available to Orlanthi. Or, maybe Orlanth Odaylan could have the same Bear's Strength that is available to Thunderous, so you could have access to that spell without joining Thunderous, but I don't see the point other than flavour.

It occurs to me now that there is, in fact, no down side at all to joining both Adventurous and Thunderous subcults. You just pay 1 POW, which gives you an RP and a spell which you were probably going to take anyway, and there you go. It's a total munchkin move, and my opinions on that are well documented.

Edited June 1, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Arcadiagt5]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

If you are a member of the Adventurous subcult, to join the Thunderous subcult, you pay a POW, add it to your Orlanth rune pool and select a rune spell (free). As you are now a member of both subcults, you have access to Odayla's rune spell (don't forget to pay...)

Does such a character tithe once to Orlanth as a whole or to both subcults separately? 

[Akhôrahil]

11 minutes ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

Does such a character tithe once to Orlanth as a whole or to both subcults separately? 

At full cult basis. There is no cost apart from social considerations to joining multiple subcults, so PCs can be expected to want as many as possible.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

32 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

At full cult basis. There is no cost apart from social considerations to joining multiple subcults, so PCs can be expected to want as many as possible.

No, the cost is 1 POW per subcult after the first or main cult. See Subcults page 282:

Quote

A candidate for initiation not familiar to the temple hierarchy must pass a test equivalent to that of initiation and sacrifice 1 point of POW to establish a link to the subcult (note that this increases the Rune point pool to the main cult), and may choose a special Rune spell provided by the subcult.

 

[David Scott]

47 minutes ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

Does such a character tithe once to Orlanth as a whole or to both subcults separately? 

As a whole. Tithing is on a per cult basis.

[David Scott]

50 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

It occurs to me now that there is, in fact, no down side at all to joining both Adventurous and Thunderous subcults. You just pay 1 POW, which gives you an RP and a spell which you were probably going to take anyway, and there you go.

For NPCs, it would be unlikely that a farmer would have any need to join the Adventurous subcult if already a thunderous member.

50 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

It's a total munchkin move, and my opinions on that are well documented.

This is what players certainly do.

[Arcadiagt5]

Thanks @David Scott , much appreciated.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

No, the cost is 1 POW per subcult after the first or main cult. See Subcults page 282:

I meant for economic upkeep. And since you get your Rune Point anyway, it’s a not any load on PCs, who will be building up their Rune Points regardless.

PCs can be expected to pick up any subcult available - there’s little reason not to.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

The phrase "Odayla is often worshiped as a subcult of the Orlanth cult" is wrong, essentially a typo. Odayla is not worshipped as a subcult in this sense. I think the intention of this is to say that Odayla doesn't usually have its own fully-fledged worship infrastructure, it only exists within Orlanth temples. So if "subcult" didn't have its own specific game term meaning, then you could use the term in the vernacular but that would be confusing.

I absolutly did not understand it, so thank you for this explanation !

 

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

It occurs to me now that there is, in fact, no down side at all to joining both Adventurous and Thunderous subcults. You just pay 1 POW, which gives you an RP and a spell which you were probably going to take anyway, and there you go. It's a total munchkin move, and my opinions on that are well documented.

Only if there is no more requirement from the cult/temple/priest (aka game master)

Personaly I don't consider that statistics requirements are enough to get a position in a cult. But it depends how players and gm manage this. the table may vary