Aeolian Notes

[davecake]

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Generally, no. Are there exceptions? Yes, and you enter as a commoner unless you can somehow prove lineage to another (but even then I suspect there must be considerable rites involved for purification, consecration, etc.) and your Devotion to the Invisible God (easier for an Esvulari or Malkioni talar to marry an Aeolian talar than any other route). As per Jeff's note: As an aside, I do not believe that the Aeolians try to convert anyone. I am not sure they even accept converts!

Yes, I think it is probably possible, but rare. In Seshnela it requires the consent of a Talar which is routinely granted, In Aeolianism probably the consent of a Talar which is rarely granted. 

 

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

As long as Orlanth, Issaries and Ernalda are included in the Talar spectrum of acceptable cults, most Rune Magic available to their Heortling neighbors are covered.

As long as they have the full worship of such deities available - not a spirit cult type thing or a small subset, but at least the core spells. 

 

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

No change there. That was already in place and foundational for the Heortland book.

So in your conception of the Aeolians, the wizard caste do not worship the Invisible God, and do not worship any gods, and many of them do not even practice sorcery? 

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

The amount of "neutered" Zzabur caste members depends on how their INT stat gets rolled. I don't expect an all genius caste of sorcerers - in fact, there should be rather a lot at best mediocre ones.

A boost to INT can make the %age them that are untrained be a bare minority rather than a majority. But it would have to be a very large boost for it not to be a substantial minority. So lets assume for discussion purposes it is at least 30%?

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

had it so that boys or girls could be recruited from orphanages as all Aeolians have an opportunity to be adopted (birth could be interpreted as "initiated", YGMV) into a caste.

Which is reasonable, but it's an edge case to solve a rare social problem (in most cases orphans parent will still be known). It doesn't solve the social problem of a supply of smart wizard children, unless for some reason Aeolian society has a problem that produces orphans wholesale. 

 

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

That goes for the Rokari and the Loskalmi as well.

The point of bringing the Rokari up was noting that they promote smart children (perhaps only Dronari or Horali, or perhaps Talar second and later sons) into the zzaburi caste to ensure they have an adequate supply of smart sorcerers - and given zzaburi celibacy, this means all zzaburi are in theory pretty smart. 

And the Loskalmi specifically promote the promising. 

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Seven Mothers aren't that different from a spirit society, really.

and that just seems nonsense. Its a coherent cult that simply has more than one major internal sub-cult. 

 

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

have seen no indications that the zzaburi will use anything but sorcery in any of the Malkioni cultures.

The Aeolians are very obviously NOT a pure Malkioni culture, but henotheist - and the defining feature of henotheism is that they worship gods besides acknowledging the Invisible God. I find this whole discussion sort of baffling - the rulebook very clearly says they do not worship the Invisible God and do worship the Lightbringers, and we get a lot of discussion that seems to start from assuming they must be more like orthodox Malkionism really, so they must actually worship the Invisible God, and can't really worship the Lightbringers properly, they must only sort of do it. And maybe we justify all this by making them more like the Seshnegi and less like the description of the Aeolians. 

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Conducting the Worship Invisible God rites might not require the officiating zzaburi to be a sorcerer.

Quote

Unlike most Malkioni, the Aeolians view the Invisible God as too remote and too unapproachable to directly worship. Instead, they worship Orlanth, Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, and Eurmal as personifications or emanations of the Creator. 

Sounds more like they have no dedicated Worship Invisible God rites at all, but rather invoke the name of the Invisible God in the rites of the Lightbringer gods. 

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

They talars and zzaburi don't move out of their castes because they gain benefits from maintaining their Rightness in their caste. 

If they don't worship the Invisible God, and do worship the Lightbringers, why are you sure they get significant Rightness benefits? 

[davecake]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

But the Aeolians actually see their main gods as being facets of the Invisible God (CoR: Prosopedia p3-4).  It is therefore right and proper to worship them in the manner in which they see fit.  Therefore there is no need for their wizards to invoke the ancestral justification to permit noble worship of their gods.  They are, by definition, doing the right thing

Absolutely. 

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

That said, the Aeolian nobles do regard the gods as being their Ancestors.  Their Kings, Queens, Generals, Admirals etc are seen as being the sons and daughters of Orlanth, Ernalda, Humakt, Magasta and so forth.

 Lots of people in the general area will be able to trace their lineage back to one or the other son or daughters of Vingkot, and so Orlanth. Though the endogenous Esvulari probably find it rather more difficult than most. 

[PaulJW]

16 hours ago, Beoferret said:

This would make the talars between 6-7% of the overall population. Fairly numerous for a nobility. Granted there were IRL examples of regions in medieval and early modern Europe where a high proportion of the population were nobles; e.g. Poland. But it meant that many of them were actually pretty poor (in lands and/or treasure). High status, but economically impoverished. It might be an interesting twist to propose something similar for the Aeolian talars.

True.  However, the nobility of medieval England consisted of a very wealthy land owning elite.  They were not the manorial lords.  The manorial lords of England were mostly all commoners.  Some were knights but bear in mind that a knight was still a commoner in medieval England (unless he was also a nobleman).

But the stats for C14th England were that there were 12000 nobles and gentry (basically the people who governed England and who could potentially sit in its parliament) out of a population of about 4 million.  So, what's that, 0.3% of the population.  Talk about a disenfranchised majority!

That's the reality.  But Glorantha is a fantasy world after all.  The implication would be that a talar caste occupies virtually any and all authority positions in a society and that many of them would be relatively impoverished compared to a medieval  English manorial lord.

[PaulJW]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

I find this whole discussion sort of baffling - the rulebook very clearly says they do not worship the Invisible God and do worship the Lightbringers, and we get a lot of discussion that seems to start from assuming they must be more like orthodox Malkionism

I do not believe they are anything like orthodox Malkionism.  I believe that it is perfectly possible for an Aeolian Wizard to be a sorcerer and a Storm Voice of Orlanth at the same time.  The way I see it, they are Wizards, not zzaburi.  They combine and intermix Malkioni and Orlanthi liturgy in their religious services and rites without batting an eyelid.  The two religious traditions are intertwined and inseparable with neither taking precedence over the other.

If you find the discussion of caste baffling that means you are doing it right!  Historians and academics have devoted years of study to understanding the Indian caste system and largely come to the conclusion that it can't be defined and that it means different things to different people at different times.

The Hindu caste system as it appears in holy books and Hindu mythology never really existed EXCEPT in the holy books and myths.  The historic reality never matched the ideal.  That is how I see Malkionism in general.  Only the Brithini are mad enough to seriously strive to really make the ideal a reality.

If you're going to create a caste system inspired by Hindu culture, then make it true to Hindu culture.  And that means that it doesn't work in practice and people are always finding work arounds and get out of jail free cards.

Even in God Forgot, that is supposedly ruled by the purist Brithini - you've got Casino Town and all the gambling, you've got Leonardo the Scientist and who knows what else going on that flies in the face of how Malkioni 'should' behave.  Baffling yes.  Baffling that is until you just take an Indian attitude to the thing rather than a western Christian one.

Edited July 18 by PaulJW

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, PaulJW said:

I do not believe they are anything like orthodox Malkionism.  I believe that it is perfectly possible for an Aeolian Wizard to be a sorcerer and a Storm Voice of Orlanth at the same time.  The way I see it, they are Wizards, not zzaburi.  They combine and intermix Malkioni and Orlanthi liturgy in their religious services and rites without batting an eyelid.  The two religious traditions are intertwined and inseparable with neither taking precedence over the other.

That's exactly how I see them.

[metcalph]

Just spit-balling here.

Perhaps the Aeolian wizards are led by the Thirteen Wizards who perform the magics to strengthen the worship of the Thirteen Gods.  I prefer to give them evocative titles, so that instead of the Watcher of Mount Passant, we have the Wizard of Storms.  The Wizards for the most part boost not the individual worshipper but the power of the temples so that rune magic becomes easier to cast and regain.  The downside is that to successfully worship at the Aeolian temples, one has to be a good Aeolian - i.e. no breaking caste or worshipping in a non-Aeolian temple - otherwise the worship goes astray.

Obviously since the demise of the Living God and the Windstop, much of their magical arrangements has been cast down or otherwise ruined and the Wizards are trying to salvage what's left.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, davecake said:

So in your conception of the Aeolians, the wizard caste do not worship the Invisible God, and do not worship any gods, and many of them do not even practice sorcery? 

No. The wizard caste worships the Invisible God, leads the community in worship of the Invisible God, and practice sorcery. That worship acknowledges that the Invisible God has made himself felt through the emanations as well which are the vehicles by which others may also approach and be guided by the Invisible God. The temples of the Invisible God include shrines/depictions of the emanations as well.

[Erol of Backford]

On 7/18/2024 at 1:51 AM, davecake said:

unless for some reason Aeolian society has a problem that produces orphans wholesale

I'd say in Sartar and Prax more so as it would seem, so many PC's, NPC's have missing parents and grandparents due to wars, etc. but I had noted somewhere there was a merit based education system in the Aeolian lands which included orphaned children as well. Maybe I dreamed that!?

Makes me wonder what the life expectancy would be Orlanthi versus Aeolians before the Lunar invasion of the Heartland? I assume the clan conflicts and raiding are much less along the Plateau cities than in Sartar propper being that the population is more dense and its a bit more civilized-urban? Is that a correct notion?

Edited July 19 by Erol of Backford

[PaulJW]

As a matter of interest & an aside, I came across this section from the Stafford library's History of the Heortling Peoples.  No longer considered canon of course since these were Greg & Jeff's rough notes on the Aeolians going back to 2007.  It's of interest only in so far as it gives an indication of the ideas they were kicking around at the time.  This was, apparently, the opinion of the Malkioni of the Middle Sea Empire concerning the Aeolians:

"the Esvularings are Aeolian Apostates who have fallen into the Kachasti heresy.  They are the descendants of the folk of New Malkonwal, too sinful to be taken to Solace with Malkion's Rapture but have the temerity to claim that Malkion abandoned them. They were once foolish atheists and are now little more than idolators who venerate Worlath [Orlanth] as an emanation of Makan and even claim that Makan sanctified the pagan god through the deeds of their founder Aeol."

Not much to go on and no longer canon but it does show the way in which the Aeolians were being considered at the time.  The labelling of them as apostates and heretics is interesting.  That suggests a fairly significant departure from Malkionism per se. 

Edited July 19 by PaulJW

[metcalph]

8 minutes ago, PaulJW said:

The labelling of them as apostates and heretics is interesting.  That suggests a fairly significant departure from Malkionism per se. 

Probably still are according to the Mythology cult distribution tables.  They and the Carmanian sects have their own entries but the Manirian Malkioni and the Brithini of God Forgot are grouped together under Invisible God.

[davecake]

On 7/18/2024 at 8:17 PM, jajagappa said:

No. The wizard caste worships the Invisible God, leads the community in worship of the Invisible God, and practice sorcery.

OK, so when you said your version of the Aeolians was the same as the rulesbook version (and Prosopaedia version), that does not seem to be the case, as they are both pretty explicit that the Aeolians do not directly worship the Invisible God. But I think I'm going to go with the Wizard caste also practicing Rune magic (but avoiding spirit magic). 

I guess we will just have to see what comes of it when more is published about them. 

Edited July 21 by davecake

[PaulJW]

8 minutes ago, davecake said:

they are both pretty explicit that the Aeolians do not directly worship the Invisible God. But I think I'm going to go with the Wizard caste also practicing Rune magic (but avoiding spirit magic). 

My take, for what it is worth, is that within Aeolian society, only the Wizards are able to worship the Invisible God directly.  And only the Wizards are able to officiate such Malkioni liturgy as the Aeolian community requires in their religious observances.  Everyone else accesses the Invisible God primarily via Orlanth (and other Lightbringer deities).  In many ways the commoners and talars are very little different from their Orlanthi neighbours to the north in that respect (that is made pretty clear in the core rules - talars and commoners use rune and spirit magic).

I think an Aeolian Wizard can be both a Wizard Sorcerer and an Orlanthi Storm Voice.  The two roles are not incompatible but complementary. I think the Wizards themselves might well use rune magic but would probably not go for spirit magic.  Some would probably rely purely on sorcery. 

At the end of the day someone has to officiate worship of the Invisible God somehow (i.e. the Wizards), even if this form of worship is too esoteric and obscure for the wider community to participate in fully.  The Aeolians do have images of the Invisible God in their temples for one thing, so he must feature in the ritual liturgy (even if commoners and talars get no magic or benefits directly from worshipping him).

What I have seen of what Jeff has written about it on Well of Daliath, definitely suggests dual worship to me:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-aeolian-school-of-malkionism/

"The Aeolians practice sorcery but also sacrifice to gods and spirits."

 

[metcalph]

There's two ways of worshipping the Invisible God - Henosis (Mental Unity with the One as per RW neoplatonicism) and the spell Worship Invisible God (described in Gods of Glorantha).  Worship Invisible God is just a magic point harvesting spell by the wizards and it feels wrong for the Aeolians to make use of it.  Henosis is part and parcel of learning sorcery but the wrinkle here is the God communed with can also be Lhankor Mhy, Irrippi Ontor, Buserian (and possible Dayzatar) as well as the Invisible God.  So if the Aeolian Wizard achieves Henosis with Lhankor Mhy, is he worshipping Lhankor Mhy or the Invisible God?

My own thinking (to avoid mental gymnastics with God Learner metaphysics) is that the Aeolian Wizards explicitly believe they are entering the mind of Lhankor Mhy  but shun the use of his spirit and rune magics.  That puts them squarely within worship of the Lightbringers which is important to them and jibs with their belief that the Invisible God  is "too remote and too unapproachable to directly worship (CoR: Prosopaedia p3).

I do not believe that it is against Caste for a Aeolian Talar (or most other sects) to be a Storm Voice or other Lightbringer Magician.  The key element of the Zzaburi is dedication to sorcery, not magic in general.  The job of a Talar is to rule and  ruling a God's magics is a legitimate part of caste (unless Brithini).

[SDLeary]

This interesting topic having slowed a bit, and it being a lazy Sunday, I would like to make a (tongue in cheek) proposal!

We must delve the archives and find all ancient documents on this subject for a correct answer! I have done so, and come up with this!

SDLeary

[davecake]

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

My own thinking (to avoid mental gymnastics with God Learner metaphysics) is that the Aeolian Wizards explicitly believe they are entering the mind of Lhankor Mhy  but shun the use of his spirit and rune magics. 

The problem with this bit of theological gymnastics to cunningly redefine the meaning of worship, thus making it meaning pretty much the opposite of its meaning, is that we are left with either of two alternatives.

1) there is a 'Lhankor Mhy cult' among the Aeolians but it does not have any access to Rune Magic or spirit magic, and is not capable of many functions we would expect of the cult, and it gains no concrete benefits from being part of a cult at all, it being essentially just rebranded zzaburi - for those members that are trained in sorcery, but there is a minority that are taught no significant magic of any kind, so for them being a 'wizard' caste member just means they have less  access to magic than the vast majority of Gloranthans. This pseudo-cult either does nothing most Lightbringers would understand as worship, or does so for no personal benefit from a sense of duty to the other castes. 

or

2) there is an actual Lhankor Mhy cult among the Aeolians, it just exists outside the wizard caste. 

Neither seems very satisfying to me. 

[Joerg]

42 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

This interesting topic having slowed a bit, and it being a lazy Sunday, I would like to make a (tongue in cheek) proposal!

We must delve the archives and find all ancient documents on this subject for a correct answer! I have done so, and come up with this!

SDLeary

"It was thirty years ago today" - well, maybe not exactly today.

I don't recall seeing this printed out this nicely.

[SDLeary]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

"It was thirty years ago today" - well, maybe not exactly today.

I don't recall seeing this printed out this nicely.

I think that was me having fun with PageMaker and my LaserJet way back when. Even printed on a rag bond with watermark! 

SDLeary

[radmonger]

6 hours ago, davecake said:

Neither seems very satisfying to me. 

A third option is that hereditary Aeolian zzaburi have three career paths. One of which is learning sorcery, the other two are initiating into the two main approved Zzaburi Rune Cults: Lhankhor Mhy and Chalana Arroy. All of these are considered valid options for passing on zzaburi status to their descendants. And all of those provide enough economic value to society that it is viable for them to make up  a sizable group of people.  Especially if Aeolian hospitals service non-Aeolians.

Note that the Chalana Arroy cult already has obligatory pacifism. And philosophers, healers and scribes are some of the few occupations that do not provide weapon skills. Which suggests that, even in wider Orlanthi society, apprentices in those cults are exempt from militia service.

Some place up someone described Aeolianism as a hybrid of Malkionism and the Lightbringers. The thing is, they are a small isolationist ethnic enclave, with good written records. Which makes it entirely plausible they are not a result of a merging of cultures, but a relic of prior ages before those cultures split.

Edited July 21 by radmonger

[Erol of Backford]

On 7/18/2024 at 1:51 AM, davecake said:

Yes, and you enter as a commoner unless you can somehow prove lineage to another (but even then I suspect there must be considerable rites involved for purification, consecration, etc.) and your Devotion to the Invisible God (easier for an Esvulari or Malkioni talar to marry an Aeolian talar than any other route).

Which Aeolian leader(s) would have the power to advance an Orlanthi commoner or a non-Aeolian in the religion, scene from Knight's Tale?

"my personal historians have discovered that he is from an ancient lineage... this is my word and as such is beyond contestation..."

I imagine that religious patronages or indulgences may also be on the table, not Larnsine's Table mind you...

Who is the leader of the Aeolian's? (Still like the old write ups from the zines on Aeolians!)

I didn't look at the Nochet book for the Aeolian section but will later for sure...

[davecake]

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Which Aeolian leader(s) would have the power to advance an Orlanthi commoner or a non-Aeolian in the religion, scene from Knight's Tale?

It would be Talar, either ranking Talar, or of some specific kind (Judge?)

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

"my personal historians have discovered that he is from an ancient lineage... this is my word and as such is beyond contestation..."

Both Malkioni and local Orlanthi care a lot about genealogy. There should be records. And a good Talar should rely on the zzaburi on such matters. If you have a legitimate claim to be of noble lineage, or come from a line of wizards, there should be records. Or perhaps Divination is permitted. 

 

[PaulJW]

I found a load of stuff Jeff posted on this that might be worth a look:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/4091-school-me-on-the-changes-to-the-malkioni/page/2/

Regarding the extent to which Aeolians follow Malkioni ways, he compares them to Hellenistic Jews in the classical world:

The Esvulari are like what was called "God-Fearing" by Hellenistic Jews. Those were Greeks who shared religious ideas with Jews, to one degree or another. However, they were not converts, but a separate community, engaged in Jewish religious ideas and practices. They did not adhere to all of the Laws of Moses (including dietary restrictions, circumcision, Sabbath, etc). I think the same thing goes on with the Esvulari regarding both Ingareen and Orlanthi practices. They share religious ideas with both (imagine a Ven Diagram showing the overlap of ideas), but follow few of the restrictions. To honor Orlanth, the community abstains from eating the meat of goats on Orlanth's storm days (though those are not Esvulari holy days per se), and closes their market on those days.

On the role of Aeolian Talars, he writes:

... chieftains called talars chosen by the local commoners from the noble families. The chieftains serve as military leaders and judges, and are roughly equivalent to Heortling chiefs. 

[Erol of Backford]

On 7/21/2024 at 9:26 AM, SDLeary said:

We must delve the archives and find all ancient documents on this subject for a correct answer! I have done so, and come up with this!

Where did you find that splendid (what I would call an) Aeolian manifesto? Was is nailed to the Wittenberg Church door?

Please share, I thought I had most of the older stuff but do not recall that...

[SDLeary]

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Where did you find that splendid (what I would call an) Aeolian manifesto? Was is nailed to the Wittenberg Church door?

Please share, I thought I had most of the older stuff but do not recall that...

Enlarge the picture and DM the author! If he agrees, I'll scan it off (when time allows). Right now it only exists as paper (and a somewhat rusty staple).

SDLeary

Edited July 25 by SDLeary

[Erol of Backford]

18 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Enlarge the picture and DM the author!

I have been using some of his stuff since the 90's. It's been canon for me since then. Gwydion of Sklar has been a staple in all my RQ campaigns.

Often wondered why he's never organized some of his old Heorltland Plateau material into a campaign outline... I'd love to read notes from play on the Plateau, similar to the House Campaign when it came out 2-3 years ago.

[jajagappa]

On 7/21/2024 at 5:42 AM, davecake said:

so when you said your version of the Aeolians was the same as the rulesbook version (and Prosopaedia version), that does not seem to be the case, as they are both pretty explicit that the Aeolians do not directly worship the Invisible God.

Let's just say that your interpretation of how that applies to the wizard caste does not match mine. And Chaosium may choose to make some further interpretation as well.