What can an initiate NOT do without a priest?

[HreshtIronBorne]

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The gaining of a Rune Point seems to be tied to learning new spells though. "For each point of POW sacrificed, the adventurer acquires the right to cast an additional cult special Rune magic spell." So there could be an implication that if you can't learn new spells, you can't sacrifice POW either.

However, at a shrine, you can sacrifice a point of POW for a Rune Point, but there's only one spell that you can learn. The implication I just mentioned also would imply that if you already know that spell, you can't sacrifice POW either. It also says that you can still sacrifice POW even if there are no more spells to learn. So... I think the implication is mistaken.

I'm not sure if that says anything about Sanctify or not. I think it's a GM's call, and I'd allow it.

Would that mean a Humakti maxes out at like 9 Rune Points because Humakt just doesn't have any more spells? In our last campaign the GM has allowed PCs to sacrifice further POW for RP even if there weren't any new spells to gain from your God, or the shrine, Sanctified Spot, or whatever. My PC sacced 3 POW at a Shrine to get just RP when there wasn't a Humakti holy day for a loooong time. 

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Would that mean a Humakti maxes out at like 9 Rune Points because Humakt just doesn't have any more spells? 

That seems completely unreasonable - surely you’re allowed to not take a new spell, especially if you know them all? I would always allow the POW sacrifice, and saying you can sacrifice for RPs within a Sanctified area but not receive any spell seems like a good interpretation.

[Squaredeal Sten]

4 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Would that mean a Humakti maxes out at like 9 Rune Points because Humakt just doesn't have any more spells? In our last campaign the GM has allowed PCs to sacrifice further POW for RP even if there weren't any new spells to gain from your God, or the shrine, Sanctified Spot, or whatever. My PC sacced 3 POW at a Shrine to get just RP when there wasn't a Humakti holy day for a loooong time. 

 It's specifically stated that you can still take more rune points if you know all the cult spells.  RQiG Page314, left column, third paragraph: "It is entirely possible that an adventurer has obtained access to all the cult's special rune magic .... In that case, no new spells are obtained... but the rune points pool still increases.  This is especially likely with cults to minor gods."

The limit of rune points with a given cult  is the character's CHA (p.313)

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Squaredeal Sten
clarity

[Squaredeal Sten]

21 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

Rune Fixes 2 - available here.

I haven’t checked Red Book of Magic to see if the updated Extension has that text in it, but I would be surprised if it wasn’t.

The thing is, if the Sanctify spell is still active during worship ceremonies (acknowledging that Extension is not required), I would still argue that the Sanctify rune point(s) are still in use and not fully expended until after the ceremonies are completed, and thus cannot be recovered by those ceremonies.

RBOM does still have that wording.

But Extension is the only spell that has that disadvantage.  Other spells of indefinite duration, like Warding (RBOM p.102) and its relative Create Market (RBOM p.36) do not: and both of these last until the wands are removed.  It appears it even persists past the caster's death.  So I believe that the "still in use" provision is unique to Extension, and is not part of Sanctify, nor should it extend to all rune magic in general.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

23 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

No, not at all. But neither is the opposite unjustified.

Also, you forgot Rune Lords can also lead worship services (although, personally, I see them more as doing so as the big special guest in a service mostly run - MCed, if you will - by the priest).

I would also expect cult skills, including Worship and Cult Lore to be taught by God Talkers (and rarely, by a Rune Lord... Again, special guest type of thing). Since GTs and Priests have the same requirements, they should be equally capable.

It does raise one question... Since a God Talker is equally competent as a Priest, if you decide that it requires instruction from the "priesthood" (and I would include God Talkers as part of the priesthood, effectively), then couldn't they also instruction/support the Initiate in the corresponding meditation etc for learning a new Rune Spell? (Since spell teaching here is a holy rite, they're not the different)

 

(BTW, I see God Talkers as more like a volunteer priest... Someone who has most of the capabilities, but the temple doesn't want to pay them to keep them on full time. I also think the requirements (identical to priests) are too high... At least remove/reduce the POW requirement).

Good point, since there are cults without priests but only rune lords,  "Priest" above should be read as "Rune priest or Rune lord".  i completely accept that correction.

As for the limitations on God Talkers,  if a god talker is operating a shrine and someone learns a spell there, I'd say the god talker must have given whatever assistance was required.  And in the case of spirit spells, p.278 specifically says that they can teach spirit magic spells.  But I just accept the more general limitations on god talkers on p.278, like not getting an allied spirit, and not being able to initiate new members of their cults.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

 

As for the limitations on God Talkers,  if a god talker is operating a shrine and someone learns a spell there, I'd say the god talker must have given whatever assistance was required.  And in the case of spirit spells, p.278 specifically says that they can teach spirit magic spells.  But I just accept the more general limitations on god talkers on p.278, like not getting an allied spirit, and not being able to initiate new members of their cults.

It is as possible that learning a spell at a shrine still requires the presence of a priest from a nearby temple. The Godtalker's responsibility is to maintain the shrine as a holy place through a string of (weekly?) sacrifices and (low-key) worship rites.

Somehow, the priest needs to spend 90% of his time at cult business. Touring shrines around his temple might be one way.

[Shiningbrow]

Two partially related questions to the thread...

Firstly, will Issaries in the GaGoG have God Talkers?

Secondly, has anyone ever taken the Priest occupation???

[PhilHibbs]

9 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Would that mean a Humakti maxes out at like 9 Rune Points because Humakt just doesn't have any more spells?

No, the rules explicitly say that that is not the case, and I also pointed that out in the post you quoted.

[Squaredeal Sten]

 

On 8/10/2021 at 12:50 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Two partially related questions to the thread...

Firstly, will Issaries in the GaGoG have God Talkers?

Secondly, has anyone ever taken the Priest occupation???

I'm not on the inside, so don't know for sure, but god-talker seems to me to be unnecessary for Issaries.  At least according to the old RQ2 references: Cult compendium says:

"Temples to Issaries are rarely found except in cities
or other major trade centers. Temples may also be
set up in any place where many merchants
temporarily meet.
In either of these cases there may be more than
one priest, and in such cases there will be an
election among all the Initiates present to select
one Chief Priest among them to be the High Priest.
This must be renewed at least every year in a city,
and in a temporary market place the status does
not last more than a week at most.  "

and on the next page,

"No special place is revered by the Issaries cult,
although many places claim to be an ancient
market where Issaries or his sons once stopped.
These spots are all markets, and often have some
ancient statue of the god nearby, but they are places
of power only when a priest of Issaries is present.
The cult considers every place where they make
a Market Circle or store goods to be a seat of worship.  "

so what I get out of this is

- the market spell makes a market and that is your Issaries temple [I would really like an authoritatve statement as to whether for Issaries the Create Market spell is also a Sanctify.  It doesn't say that in RBOM.]  but that last sentence says to me that that the Issaries market is their temple. 

- and the initiates present elect the chief priest from among the priests present, if there is more than one candidate.  

- and an "Issaries shrine" isn't really a shrine without an Issaries priest present.

I don't think it says that if there is no priest an initiate can step up and be a "priest" for other purposes - though I can see room to interpret it that way, and if it's time to worship you should worship.  It is not stated that an elected  initiate would be a god-talker - but for the purposes of the cult that may not matter much. 

Nor is it stated that the market is a shrine instead of a temple.  As a GM I would be tempted to determine how many Issaries initiates and lay members are present or are nearby, to ask if they have worshiped there recently, and to categorize the market's magical potential in accord with the site/shrine/temple size rules on p. 284 of RQiG.  That would let an Issaries priest do rune spell teaching in a market of a city.  "Holy Days of the cult are any market days, but like most Lightbringers cults  they especially revere
the Sacred Time, and set aside many days there to worship, especially Wild Day." so basically on any market day you can do your Issaries temple functions at the market.  If you need a week for Rune Spell learning in a smaller or weekly market, in my game the ceremony can be concluded or started on "market day" / Wildday.  YGMV, but an authoritative answer would be good..

Edited August 11, 2021 by Squaredeal Sten
double paste

[Kloster]

RQ2 had no equivalent to the Godtalker, so no surprise nothing is in 'Cult of Prax' or 'Cult Compendium' description.

RQ3 had the Acolyte rank, but there is nothing in 'Gods of Glorantha' telling that Issaries has or has not Acolytes. For me, the default is that except if told otherwise, if a cult had Priests, it also had Acolytes, so now has Godtalkers.

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, Kloster said:

RQ3 had the Acolyte rank, but there is nothing in 'Gods of Glorantha' telling that Issaries has or has not Acolytes. For me, the default is that except if told otherwise, if a cult had Priests, it also had Acolytes, so now has Godtalkers.

RQG actively lists it when a cult has God-talkers, though, and doesn't mention it for Issaries.

[Kloster]

10 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

RQG actively lists it when a cult has God-talkers, though, and doesn't mention it for Issaries.

Thanks. I couldn't check from my phone.

[French Desperate WindChild]

The big difference  I see between priest (or rune lord, or team of god talkers... etc ) and initiate is that an initiate cannot use the temple without some licence from the local priest (or local religious leader)

As Initiate you can enter in a temple and pray (if you are recognized as initiate) but to do more, to organize a ceremony (like "learning" a new spell, regain rune points , anything the rules say what you can "gain") you must*  obtain the priest's validation.Then you can ask for help (understand the myth, etc) to obtain what you want but the main point is the temple is not a "self service", it is a place managed by someone

 

That is not only a "power" given to the priest, but a responsability, if the priest doesn't lead the ceremonies (and other religious activities), the temple should lose its own "power" and become only a building without any divine presence.

 

* of course you gloranthan must, you irl choose to play or not this aspect of background, I m not giving any order 😉

[Joerg]

58 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

RQG actively lists it when a cult has God-talkers, though, and doesn't mention it for Issaries.

I take that as "the cult has the special status where someone with the general qualification of a priest gets employed by the cult as a God-talker."

Every cult will have initiates taking care of shrines or sites where a priest is rarely seen. Such people will be God-Talkers by their job description, but not according to the rules.

The main difference seems to be that only the official God-Talkers get priestly Divine Intervention - they get to add their unused rune points to their POW when doing the percentile roll, and use up unspent rune points before they touch characteristic POW.

A successful DI still is very likely to cause a break in the ability to work as a priest, as the POW is going to take a hit at least half of the time (assuming a priest with POW 18 CHA 18 and 18 unspent rune points to get that 50% chance of not losing any POW). Thus, asking for Divine Intervention as a priest can be a career-breaking move.

I wonder whether that is intentional? Old RQ2 had priestly DI as a Runepower 1 spell, which makes phrases like "stack this spell with a DI" a lot more harmless.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The main difference seems to be that only the official God-Talkers get priestly Divine Intervention - they get to add their unused rune points to their POW when doing the percentile roll, and use up unspent rune points before they touch characteristic POW.

Improved POW gain for (proper) God-talkers is a huge deal (for PCs).

Edited August 11, 2021 by Akhôrahil