Lie

[buzz]

RQG, p.333, “For example, if a trickster used this spell to tell a Yelm priest that the Sun wasn’t going to rise tomorrow, it would cause a great deal of panic until next morning or until the priest performed Divination and asked their deity what had happened or until the end of the full melee round after the spell was cast.”

This makes no sense to me. A lie that lasts one round? For 2 points? The majority of this example isn’t even possible. 

[Richard S.]

"Anyone hearing the lie automatically believes it to be true, no matter how outrageous it is. They continue to believe it until they have
incontrovertible evidence of its falsehood, or for at least one full melee round in any case."

One melee round is just the minimum that they believe it for.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Richard S.

[Scotty]

5 hours ago, buzz said:

RQG, p.333, “For example, if a trickster used this spell to tell a Yelm priest that the Sun wasn’t going to rise tomorrow, it would cause a great deal of panic until next morning or until the priest performed Divination and asked their deity what had happened or until the end of the full melee round after the spell was cast.”

This makes no sense to me. A lie that lasts one round?

Only a foolish caster would tell a lie that could be refuted so fast.

5 hours ago, buzz said:

For 2 points?

This is a pretty powerful spell. Fortunately it's rare.

5 hours ago, buzz said:

The majority of this example isn’t even possible. 

It's very possible, it sows confusion, until the sun rises or the priest performs a divination.

Another example would be that an adventurer in distant place is told that their family is dead (no use of love family and likely immediate despair). The adventure believes this until they return home and find their family alive.

 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 hours ago, Scotty said:

This is a pretty powerful spell. Fortunately it's rare

Change "pretty" to "grossly over" and you have it right.

Stealing an idea from the Dune movie, I might start having deaf opponents.  🙂

[buzz]

Okay, then am I just reading this wrong? One round is just the minimum, so even if they see incontrovertible evidence within the round, they believe until the end of the round at least? Otherwise, they keep on believing until the evidence appears?

 That is definitely way cooler. 

[Alex]

9 hours ago, Scotty said:

Only a foolish caster would tell a lie that could be refuted so fast.

AKA a Trickster!  And potentially a rapidly retreating one if they've lived this long on the basis of doing such things...  Or with Group Laughter used the following round.  Top bants, by magical force majeure!

 

31 minutes ago, buzz said:

Okay, then am I just reading this wrong? One round is just the minimum, so even if they see incontrovertible evidence within the round, they believe until the end of the round at least? Otherwise, they keep on believing until the evidence appears?

Yes.  I think the existing wording is pretty clear actually, though the "full melee round" text in the example makes it slightly less so.  Pretty tricky to invoke a divination between SR <N> of one round and SR <N> of the next as it's itself a Ritual magic, with a minimum duration of an hour.  Unless you really panic and use a DI to do it!  So personally I would, with the benefit of wisdom after the fact, have omitted that clause.

But if you want to flip it around, think if as having a two-case duration:-

• If proven false:  lasts a melee round from casting (unless already past that time);
• If not proven false:  indefinite.

[buzz]

7 minutes ago, Alex said:

But if you want to flip it around, think if as having a two-case duration:-

• If proven false:  lasts a melee round from casting (unless already past that time);
• If not proven false:  indefinite.

Thank you, that's a great way to put it.

(Reminds me of how, in the Starter Set, they clearly explain Special/Critical hits in two lines. In RQG, it's two pages. 😄)

[Alex]

1 minute ago, buzz said:

Thank you, that's a great way to put it.

(Reminds me of how, in the Starter Set, they clearly explain Special/Critical hits in two lines. In RQG, it's two pages. 😄)

You're welcome, I'm sure it was way worse for some tastes, but glad to be of any situational help.

Explanations are tricky things.  Easy to make them either too terse, or too long-winded.  And Your Reader Will Vary!  Some people like a definition by parts, some people will pitch a fit at the sight.  😄  And examples can be tricky too, as sometimes they really clarify, and sometimes they add confusion by way of actual or apparent inconsistency with the other.

[Akhôrahil]

It’s also critical to realize that Lie isn’t mind-control - it makes you believe factual statements. ”These are not the druids you are looking for” is perfect, while ”You want to help me” doesn’t work - it might cause a round of confusion, but then you realize that no, you don’t in fact want that, merely from introspection.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Darius West]

17 hours ago, Scotty said:

Only a foolish caster would tell a lie that could be refuted so fast.

Yeah, Trickster himself told people that Glorantha is a Lozenge, and it has never been refuted. 😉

[Alex]

Just now, Darius West said:

Yeah, Trickster himself told people that Glorantha is a Lozenge, and it has never been refuted. 😉

That's an excellent example, and sets an interesting bar for "incontrovertible evidence".

"But-but-but...  it has a horizon!"

"Bendy light."

"Oh.  Huh.  And the sky dome and planets show no measurable parallax!"

"Listen, it's pretty big, an we're working with Bronze Age astrolabes here."

"Hrrrrm.  I dunno, I've seen the maps, it seems like I should able to detect some sort of--"

"Listen, if Yelm dun wanna be measured, he ain't gonna be measured!"

[Shiningbrow]

On 11/12/2021 at 6:12 PM, Scotty said:

Only a foolish caster would tell a lie that could be refuted so fast.

Not if they were desperate... Which I presume is why the minimum time is included.

(Although, 2RP would be a big loss)

[Alex]

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Not if they were desperate... Which I presume is why the minimum time is included.

Foolish Tricksters...  desperate Tricksters...  Film at 11!

[Godlearner]

Recently had a situation were the party were accused of murder and were put on trial. The evidence was manufactured and stacked against them. Witnesses were bought off. They were toast .... until just before the verdict was announced a Trickster stood up and using the Lie spell shifted the blame on the true perpetrator of the crime. Everyone believed him and the party was let go free. (They promptly fled the city). Now Eurmal is a prohibited cult in those parts.

[Alex]

1 minute ago, Godlearner said:

Recently had a situation were the party were accused of murder and were put on trial. The evidence was manufactured and stacked against them. Witnesses were bought off. They were toast .... until just before the verdict was announced a Trickster stood up and using the Lie spell shifted the blame on the true perpetrator of the crime.

Definite egregious munchkinism!  😄 Dangerously close to lying with the truth...  I trust they embellished the framing a guilty man with some degree of falsehood, for the sake of good form..

1 minute ago, Godlearner said:

Now Eurmal is a prohibited cult in those parts.

Situation normal, then. 🙂

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Recently had a situation were the party were accused of murder and were put on trial. The evidence was manufactured and stacked against them. Witnesses were bought off. They were toast .... until just before the verdict was announced a Trickster stood up and using the Lie spell shifted the blame on the true perpetrator of the crime. Everyone believed him and the party was let go free. (They promptly fled the city). Now Eurmal is a prohibited cult in those parts.

Two questions

1. As I read the spell description, it must be a lie.  Not the truth.  YGMV.
2. Why is Eurmal now prohibited?  Doesn't everybody still believe the Lie?  There is presumably no "incontrovertible evidence" clearing the true perpetrator!  And, the spell is "cast undetectably".  Nobody knows when a good Lie spell has been cast.  That's the true awesome power (overpower IMO) of the spell.

[Godlearner]

3 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Two questions

1. As I read the spell description, it must be a lie.  Not the truth.  YGMV.
2. Why is Eurmal now prohibited?  Doesn't everybody still believe the Lie?  There is presumably no "incontrovertible evidence" clearing the true perpetrator!  And, the spell is "cast undetectably".  Nobody knows when a good Lie spell has been cast.  That's the true awesome power (overpower IMO) of the spell.

1. The Trickster did not know, or care if it was the truth. 

2. The case was a setup and the evidence/witness was against them. Eventually the "truth" was revealed and the cause was determined. Laws do not protect Tricksters and the Powers that be decided to take an extra step to outlaw them altogether.