Dismiss & Dispel Magic

[Godlearner]

24 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

There are darned few ways for anybody to identify spells to target.  (in RQG)

We have always allowed people to roughly identify the spell types by allowing targeting of "spells that protect against damage" or "spells that enhance strength", etc.

[Kloster]

8 hours ago, Godlearner said:

We have always allowed people to roughly identify the spell types by allowing targeting of "spells that protect against damage" or "spells that enhance strength", etc.

Whatever, Fireblade is damn difficult not to identify.

[Bren]

I wanted to follow up one of Phil's comments from two days ago. Since Dismiss et all was moved here, this seems like the place.

On 1/24/2022 at 5:07 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Yes, you could cast Countermagic on your sword after you cast Truesword or Bladesharp on it. And you could cast Countermagic on yourself to protect your Sword Trance.

But after the user casts Sword Trance their ability to cast other magic spells is very limited. "While entranced, the user may cast only weapon-enhancing spells such as Bladesharp, Repair, etc." from the Red Book of Magic p97. Countermagic doesn't enhance the weapon, so no casting. At least that's how I see it.

[HreshtIronBorne]

The optimal option here is an allied spirit casting Countermagic for you once you go into your Sword Trance. 

[Mechashef]

On 1/25/2022 at 10:38 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

You see some effect "oh, the mace is glowing, and there was a whoosh of Darkness when the troll cast something on himself", but no direct "He cast Bludgeon and Shield".  Most GMs sort of fudge it and let you make reasonable guesses.

I tend to be very lenient in this.  The Red Book of Magic states:

Quote

Spirit magic is the work of spirits and usually has a lesser
sensory effect than Rune magic. Even so, it is noticeable
when spirit magic has been cast. For example, a sword with
Bladesharp cast upon it might have a supernatural sheen, or
a person with Protection cast might glow dully. A mace with
Bludgeon might be surrounded with tendrils of dark mist, and
a person with Shimmer cast might seemingly move in unnatural
bursts and pauses.

I interpret that as the visual effects being moderately obvious.

I can see an argument for the same spirit magic spell having different visual effects for different cults (and I can also see an argument for the visual effects being the same for all cults).

I would expect that even moderately experienced adventurers would become quite good at identifying commonly used spells by frequent foe types.  "Yep there is the typical weird shininess on that Orlanthi warrior's sword.  He's gone for the old bladesharp again!"

 

Now if I was running a temple, or training new warriors, I would certainly be including the visual descriptions of commonly used spells so the noobs have some idea what they are up against.  It would be a standard part of training.

 

 

 

 

[HreshtIronBorne]

19 minutes ago, Mechashef said:

I interpret that as the visual effects being moderately obvious.

I can see an argument for the same spirit magic spell having different visual effects for different cults (and I can also see an argument for the visual effects being the same for all cults).

I would expect that even moderately experienced adventurers would become quite good at identifying commonly used spells by frequent foe types.  "Yep there is the typical weird shininess on that Orlanthi warrior's sword.  He's gone for the old bladesharp again!"

 

Now if I was running a temple, or training new warriors, I would certainly be including the visual descriptions of commonly used spells so the noobs have some idea what they are up against.  It would be a standard part of training.

 

This combined with Soul Sight or whatever the Rune Spell Magic Vision spell is lets you see the MP devoted to spells up, so you can even get a good idea how strong the spells are that the baddies have up so you don't waste MPs. 

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

The optimal option here is an allied spirit casting Countermagic for you once you go into your Sword Trance. 

In fact, or anybody else, like the example of the second rank casting Fireblade on the 1st rank of Humaktis.

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Mechashef said:

I interpret that as the visual effects being moderately obvious.

Except for some spells that are obvious: Fire(blade/arrow), light, (light/dark)wall, ...

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

This combined with Soul Sight or whatever the Rune Spell Magic Vision spell is lets you see the MP devoted to spells up, so you can even get a good idea how strong the spells are that the baddies have up so you don't waste MPs. 

Yes, it's called Soul Sight (for the Rune version - and the spirit spell of Second Sight doesn't show MPs in spells - or even any spells!)

While true... that's somewhat expensive - spending a Rune Point to suss out opponent's spells.... Unless you're in a cult that has regular  (eg, weekly) RP regeneration, that's a bit of a toll. (It's also 1 less RP to spend on the Dismiss) And if I was GMing this, I'd be very loathe to allow that player to indicate any specifics from their character to any other character, such that they knew exactly how many MPs (or RPs) to throw to overcome any resistances or buffers. (and, at that point, I'd consider any such discussion at the table to also be SRs in-game time... (and "They've got 6 points of Countermagic" would be right out! Minor, Lesser, Greater etc type qualitative, rather than quantitative descriptions would be acceptable)

[PhilHibbs]

20 hours ago, Bren said:

But after the user casts Sword Trance their ability to cast other magic spells is very limited.

I have already been corrected, in that you can cast spells on yourself despite Countermagic or Shield on yourself. You are inside the protection so it's not "incoming".

[HreshtIronBorne]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

21 hours ago, Bren said:

But after the user casts Sword Trance their ability to cast other magic spells is very limited.

I have already been corrected, in that you can cast spells on yourself despite Countermagic or Shield on yourself. You are inside the protection so it's not "incoming".

I think that takes out some of the finnicky hoop jumping and spell sequencing shenanigans to get your spells up, which is good for the game. 

[Bren]

On 1/27/2022 at 1:39 PM, PhilHibbs said:

I have already been corrected, in that you can cast spells on yourself despite Countermagic or Shield on yourself. You are inside the protection so it's not "incoming".

I may be misunderstanding, but I don't think that's the same issue. Casting Sword Trance after casting Countermagic or Shield on oneself is fine. What I was highlighting was that once the caster is in a Sword Trance, the spell doesn't allow the caster to cast spells like Countermagic or Shield at all because those aren't sword enhancing spells. So the caster needs to cast defensive spells before casting Sword Trance,* rely on friends and allies to cast protective magic for the caster, or just be one with their sword without the advantage of any protective spells.

 

* Which the caster may or may not have time to do. One disadvantage of Sword Trance is that its value depends on the number of additional magic points the caster spends. And adding magic points adds 1 SR per MP. So it may take an entire round or more before Sword Trance is effective. I know this first hand from running a Humakti with POW 9. It usually requires multiple rounds to succeed in casting Bladesharp and/or Protection. Using a POW storage crystal he can then cast Sword Trance backed with 10 MPs which gives him +100% to his Sword skill, but casting with that many MPs added takes almost an entire round. The situation often doesn't allow the luxury of enough rounds to get the protective spell cast before he needs to cast Sword Trance and enter combat. I fully expect that may get him killed one day.