Which location takes excess damage when parrying with a shield - it's been clarified

[Stephen L]

I know this has come up a number of time in a few threads, but I only just spotted, there is a rule clarification on this:

CHA4028 RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha – Chapter 07 Combat Q&A pages 191-206 – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

(under the section the Parry)

Quote

 

Excess damage after successful parry with a shield

“A Successful Parry” on page 198: “In most cases, a hit to a shield damages the arm wielding it.”

An example on page 204:”Since he parried successfully, the attack goes through to his arm, which is clad in a 6-point plate vambrace.”

“Notes on Shield Use” on page 218:”Any damage taken by the shield above what the shield can absorb in one blow is inflicted on the hit location originally rolled in the attack.”

The last rule is different from the former descriptions. Which is right?

Go with the shield arm, which is the common-sense solution. If you intercept an attack with a shield and the shield is pierced, it will hurt your arm. 

 

 

[Baron Wulfraed]

10 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

I know this has come up a number of time in a few threads, but I only just spotted, there is a rule clarification on this:

CHA4028 RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha – Chapter 07 Combat Q&A pages 191-206 – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

(under the section the Parry)

 

Of course, to play Devil's Advocate, a "proper" parry DEFLECTS the incoming blow, which would mean excess damage would be more likely to strike an adjacent area not covered by the shield -- ie: a downward strike might slide along a tilted shield and hit the upper leg on the shield side. This is different from using the shield to directly BLOCK the incoming blow.

[Manimati]

For more than 30 years, I have been using the RQ2 rules : "Damage taken by the shield for more points than the shield can absorb in one blow is taken on the hit location rolled in the attack. The armor on the location, if any, absorbs the excess points.", which happen to be the same as p. 218 of RQG.  

I think it is a better rule than "damage goes to the shield arm". 

[Bill the barbarian]

Yes, I can not justify changing this, myself... Using the old hit/parry is one of my few home rules

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[HreshtIronBorne]

We have always played with damage in excess of parry going to the rolled location. 

 

I am just starting up a new cmapaign with Glorantha newbies and I think I am going to try out Shield parries having excess damage go to the Shield Arm, as it could give shields a bit of an adge over dual wielding and will DEFINITELY increase the longevity of new players. Lol

[Mechashef]

I will always play it as the damage goes to the rolled location.   It makes more sense to me both from a logical and a gaming point of view.

 

If it goes through to the shield arm then plate armour on that arm will be a must have for just about every shield user.

And if Armoring Enchantment is ever brought back, then it is obvious which is the first location to enchant.

 

I feel having the damage go through to the shield arm adds a level or predictability I don't need.

 

And while I have no experience with combat using weapons, I have spent a lot of time holding pads while people punch and kick them.  When holding a big shield style kick pad for someone who kicks hard, I put a focus mitt pad between my arm and my ribs.  Those hard kicks coming through the kick shield don't hurt my arm, they hurt my ribs as my arm is smashed back into them.

  

[DreadDomain]

I am the same as @Mechashef for pretty much the same reasons. It's less predictable, more dynamic, makes more sense, offers more narratives ("you deflect the blow and it landed in your face", "I block the blow and the shock goes through my arm") and it's overall more fun.

Edited February 3, 2022 by DreadDomain

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

It's when the damage goes through the large iron shield, through the iron plate, through the arm, through the iron plate again and still does double HP damage to the chest that you need to worry...

 

Oh, almost forgot about prot and shield 4.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Orlanthatemyhamster

[Stephen L]

13 hours ago, Manimati said:

For more than 30 years, I have been using the RQ2 rules : "Damage taken by the shield for more points than the shield can absorb in one blow is taken on the hit location rolled in the attack. The armor on the location, if any, absorbs the excess points.", which happen to be the same as p. 218 of RQG.  

I think it is a better rule than "damage goes to the shield arm". 

Indeed,

However, it does make characters more survivable using a shield, parry a critical with a shield, and you'll live (minus a left arm, perhaps), but *much* better than a random location.

Otherwise, there's little advantage to using a shield.  You might as well take a two handed weapon, and do loads of damage.

Yes shields are good at missile weapons.  But you don't need a skill in shield for that, so MiniMax the Odorous could carry a shield just for closing to the enemy, and then drop it and finish them off with his great-sword.

So I quite like RAW RAC

[DreadDomain]

1 hour ago, Stephen L said:

However, it does make characters more survivable using a shield, parry a critical with a shield, and you'll live (minus a left arm, perhaps), but *much* better than a random location.

Otherwise, there's little advantage to using a shield.  You might as well take a two handed weapon, and do loads of damage.

Hmmm... you may have a point here... but isn't the problem that shields do not offer enough protection compared to some weapons?

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Stephen L said:

Otherwise, there's little advantage to using a shield.  You might as well take a two handed weapon, and do loads of damage.

Your characters have too much money. Replacing a broadsword, or even more a greatsword, is far more expensive that replacing a large shield. In addition, you can try to deflect thrown weapons.

[Stephen L]

1 hour ago, DreadDomain said:

but isn't the problem that shields do not offer enough protection compared to some weapons?

Probably. 

But I'm certainly not playing with AP of Shields Weapons, because what we've got seems finely balanced for really exciting combats.  A parry will keep you safe from most blows, but it's when your shield/weapon is whittled down by those special hits that leaves you vulnerable.

Raising or lowering AP seems likely to break that balance.

22 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Your characters have too much money. Replacing a broadsword, or even more a greatsword

Not really, they're not that rich...

Largely they get their weapons as starting equipment, and have them repaired between adventures, which I assume to be much cheaper than a replacement cost.

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Stephen L said:

Largely they get their weapons as starting equipment, and have them repaired between adventures, which I assume to be much cheaper than a replacement cost.

I already had several times my broadsword destroyed in 1 session. In one case, it was in 1 fight, and repairing it is not possible in the middle of the fight. But you are right: repairing between adventures is much cheaper than buying a new one.

[Mechashef]

Like many people I've often played using a subset of the rules and until recently have not been very diligent about tracking damage to weapons and shields.  Since paying more attention to that aspect, it is surprising how much of an impact it has.

 

One thing I've noticed is that shields (and also spears) have an advantage akin to the old trick in first person shooters of carrying an enemy's weapon.  In first person shooters I often carry a weapon commonly used by the enemy because you typically don't run out of ammo,  When you kill bad guys you frequently get their ammo.    

 

in RQ, many enemies carry shields.  If your medium shield is getting too battered, loot one from an enemy you just killed.  You can use their medium shield at the same skill as yours.

 

For most weapons, the chances of being able to loot an identical weapon is not great (spears are often an exception).  Sure you could probably find someone with another weapon in the same category, but the 1/2 skill modifier is a pain.

[DreadDomain]

12 hours ago, Stephen L said:

Probably. 

But I'm certainly not playing with AP of Shields Weapons, because what we've got seems finely balanced for really exciting combats.  A parry will keep you safe from most blows, but it's when your shield/weapon is whittled down by those special hits that leaves you vulnerable.

Raising or lowering AP seems likely to break that balance.

Then absolutely, don't change what works great already.

Personally, I don't really mind the HP as they are and the Shields table from W&E gives more options for the shields. I feel only a medium bronze shield at 16 HP is missing.

Edited February 3, 2022 by DreadDomain