Are undead immune to spirit combat?

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

If the attacking spirit (whether a ghost or another spirit including a disembodied shaman) can't see something, can it fight it?

No, it will be totally unaware of it.  But if the spirit can manifest in the real world (i.e. use Visibility), then it could become aware and attack.  Some spirits have this ability naturally, others do not.

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

No, it will be totally unaware of it.  But if the spirit can manifest in the real world (i.e. use Visibility), then it could become aware and attack.  Some spirits have this ability naturally, others do not.

So in that case whether the potential target has a spirit plane presence would not matter.

Is it possible to tell from the Bestiary which spirits do and do not have the visibility ability?  Or should we say that any spirit that can be summoned  and manifest itself has that capability?

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Is it possible to tell from the Bestiary which spirits do and do not have the visibility ability?  Or should we say that any spirit that can be summoned  and manifest itself has that capability?

p.170 notes that "Ghosts can become visible at will and engage intruders in spirit combat" - those are the only ones explicitly noted.

p.174 the wyter Kogui can manifest as an elk (and therefore be visible) - as wyter are often "aware" of things within their domain, I'd generally expect them to have the capacity to become visible.  Similarly landscape spirits, which are tied to a specific mundane area, seem like reasonable candidates to become visible.

p.176 talks about spirits that manifest physically (elementals, nymphs, whirlvishes, and wraiths), BUT notes that such cannot attack in spirit combat when physically embodied, so that would preclude them from attacking undead in that manner.

Other spirits that we know of that are hostile and often engage in spirit combat in the mundane world are disease spirits and various passion spirits.  These seem like they might reasonably possess undead but as covert spirits, they may be unable to control the undead's body and instead use as a vessel until it disintegrates.

 

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

15 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

That is a very interesting point.  If the attacking spirit (whether a ghost or another spirit including a disembodied shaman) can't see something, can it fight it?

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

No, it will be totally unaware of it.  But if the spirit can manifest in the real world (i.e. use Visibility), then it could become aware and attack.  Some spirits have this ability naturally, others do not.

 

that is not only the capacity of be  aware of the target, that is the capacity to use a method to affect the target :

my idea about second sight / spirit world / etc ... is to say

"if they are not present in spirit world, they have no spirit,if they have no spirit, spirit combat is not possible"

note that I say "not present", and no "present but hidden"

 

that is exactly the same than trying to fight a vampire in its smoke form  with a weapon. You see the smoke/vampire, but you cannot touch it.

Same (for me) with a ghost: it cannot see the undead in spirit world, it can see it in mundane world, but cannot engage it in spirit combat because there is no "opposition"

 

well maybe invoking the @Scotty's best passion ( [lust runequest q&a]: 100%) would clarify at least the official rules.

[Scotty]

 

50 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

well maybe invoking the @Scotty's best passion ( [lust runequest q&a]: 100%) would clarify at least the official rules.

Unsure what the question is, so here's the OP.

Undead & Spirit Combat

• No, If it's a magically animated dead thing. eg Skeleton, Zombie, Revenant.
• Yes, if specifically stated in the creature description that it can be attacked by spirit combat. eg, vampires (RQB 106), Dancers in the Darkness (Vampiric RQB 97)
• As usual a GM can state otherwise in their games.

[JRE]

So the question is whether spirit perception is simply second sight, or if it is more similar to soul sight or pierce veil. despite the MGF comment above, it is looking as if most undead are disconnected from the spirit plane, and cannot be attacked.

It could be said that any undead that has taken POW since the last dusk, can be detected by the lost magic, even it is no longer POW but MPs. That could be the explanation for the vamire and vampiric being exception.

Edited February 24, 2022 by JRE

[Akhôrahil]

10 hours ago, Scotty said:

Revenant

Are you sure about Revenant? Bestiary: "This ritual binds the soul of a departed Zorak Zoran Death Lord back into their specially prepared body". So there's a soul, and they have access to Rune Magic and Sorcery. This seems fundamentally different from zombies and skeletons.

[Scotty]

12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Are you sure about Revenant?

The general entry on revenants does not mention they can engage in spirit combat. Note that there is more than one way to make a revenant, so more than one type.

12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Bestiary: "This ritual binds the soul of a departed Zorak Zoran Death Lord back into their specially prepared body".

The specific Zorak Zoran rune spell does say binds their soul, so GMs could consider them attackable by spirit combat.

12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

So there's a soul, and they have access to Rune Magic

They cannot regain their rune points though.

12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

and Sorcery.

Yes. Sorcerously created revenants will clearly learn sorcery.

12 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This seems fundamentally different from zombies and skeletons.

23 hours ago, Scotty said:

• As usual a GM can state otherwise in their games.

 

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Scotty said:

The general entry on revenants does not mention they can engage in spirit combat. Note that there is more than one way to make a revenant, so more than one type.

Well, as an embodied entity, they cannot initiate spirit combat. Neither can ordinary humans, trolls, or beasts, but all of them can be attacked in spirit combat.

What about mostali constructs like nilmerg, jolanti, or gobblers? Aldryami wartrees or war-vines? Or elementals?

  

7 hours ago, Scotty said:

They cannot regain their rune points though.

Neither can wyters, other than through community sacrifice - little different from the creator of a zombie or skeleton infusing another dose of MP into the creation (which may or may not be possible, depending on the manufacturing method).

Edited February 25, 2022 by Joerg

[Scotty]

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

Well, as an embodied entity, they cannot initiate spirit combat. Neither can ordinary humans, trolls, or beasts, but all of them can be attacked in spirit combat.

What about mostali constructs like nilmerg, jolanti, or gobblers? Aldryami wartrees or war-vines? Or elementals?

The answers are per the OP Are undead immune to spirit combat? 

[Darius West]

I play it that the adoption of the Undeath Rune cuts the undead entity off from all spirit interactions.  In effect they have become a perverse form of sorcery spell by becoming undead.  They can use spells to see spirits, but they cannot interact with spirits except via spells and vice versa.  There can be no spirit combat between the undead and spirits.  Yes, you can use sorcery spells that drain MP to destroy the undead.  Sever Spirit is used on the living, not the undead as Humakt has the Turn Undead spell for dealing with them.

[Nicochan]

Hijacking the topic to ask one thing about Spirit Combat:

If a creature does not have a Spirit Combat skill (e.g. a Giant Praying Mantis), can it roll anything at all to defend? If not, does it automatically fail or critically fail?

EDIT: bonus question. Do creatures that lack INT automatically pass or automatically fail concentration checks and INTxN checks?

Edited March 9, 2022 by Nicochan

[Dragon]

On 3/8/2022 at 11:26 PM, Nicochan said:

Hijacking the topic to ask one thing about Spirit Combat:

If a creature does not have a Spirit Combat skill (e.g. a Giant Praying Mantis), can it roll anything at all to defend? If not, does it automatically fail or critically fail?

EDIT: bonus question. Do creatures that lack INT automatically pass or automatically fail concentration checks and INTxN checks?

I believe the Skills chapter of RiG specifies the base skill level. Unless a Bestiary or other document overrides that skill level for other species, they have the same base skill level as humans.

Since Giant Praying Mantis does not specify a different Spirit Combat base as it does for Fly, Hide, and Move Quietly; the base is 20. It could have a bonus for POW, but not for CHA. So, it is likely at 20. Likewise it has the same base Listen and Scan as a human. It is not incapable of listening or scanning.

When does a creature without INT need to make a concentration check? Is there one that maintains active spells? Is there a creature without INT that is riding a Riding mount? Taking damage while Meditating? Pretty sure creatures without INT wouldn't meditate, but could be convinced there is one exception out there. How about taking an action other than spirit combat while engaged in spirit combat? I would rule they never attempt that, their instinct makes them fight the spirit.

I am having trouble finding another example.  Bet one will come to me. 

[Joerg]

RQ3 used to present zombies as undead things made by shamans, using spirit methods, which is why I don't think that undeath is a state alien to the spirit world.

IMG Undeath really is a power of the Underworld, where the dead are tolerated walking and doing things, rather than something intricately associated with Chaos. The main Chaos connection is when the lord of the Undead, previously known as Nontraya, encountered the Devil and accepted the sacrifice of (what remained of) his soul to the Devil for contiued existence, reducing the mastery of the post-Death experience to Vampirism.