Bows, elves and strikes ranks

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

The roll20 page shows that if my elf (dex 19+) uses Coordination, she gets to fire at sr 1/5/9, and adding mobility  at 1/4/7/10.

Looks like the +5 sr to load are affected by the spells. Is that correct?

I love the idea of firing 4 arrows each melee round but it feels wrong, I haven't found this on the rule book, the q&a or here.

Thanks! 😊

[Bill the barbarian]

As far as I know, the number between the arrows after the first shot is always 5 for prep... The first arrow is either 5 plus DEX SR or DEX SR if prepared although nothing happens prior to SR 1).

Edited February 22, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

3 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

As far as I know, the number between the arrows after the first shot is always 5 for prep... The first arrow is either 5 plus DEX SR or DEX SR if prepared although nothing happens prior to SR 1).

That's how we have been using it 

[Bill the barbarian]

My bad (damn Oldzheimer’s!), seems you do add your DEX SR each shot as well as 5SR to prep a missile

From the Well of Daliath

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

Just now, Bill the barbarian said:

From the Well of Daliath

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com

...

 

 

I guess the math on the roll20 page is just wrong.

[Bill the barbarian]

It was done by hard working volunteers...

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

3 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

It was done by hard working volunteers...

They sheet is great, it's just that for a moment I was elated about the possibilities. 

[Bill the barbarian]

Yes, they have done incredible work and based on this conversation I will use my backdoor to them and let them know about this thread. Thanks for pointing that out!

[Shiningbrow]

However... Mobility reduces SR by 1.. Not DEX SR. So, perhaps the 5SR to reload becomes a 4??

[Scotty]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

However... Mobility reduces SR by 1.. Not DEX SR. So, perhaps the 5SR to reload becomes a 4??

To clarify "and reduces their strike rank by 1". So DEX SR4 will become DEX SR3, moving them up the table one step.

[Brian Duguid]

When a similar query came up on FB, I suggested it is helpful to always think of DEX SR as "DEX SR modifier", SIZ SR as "SIZ SR modifier" and so on, to distinguish them clearly from Strike Ranks, which are determined by adding together SR modifiers and action SR "costs", but are not the same thing.

What does it mean, for example, that Mobility "reduces their strike rank by 1"? In the bow/reloading example above, does that mean it changes the Strike Rank for an action by -1? Or that it reduces the combined DEX+SIZ SR modifiers by 1 (if so, what if they are already zero)? Or that it reduces the SR "cost" for the reload action by 1? These each may have a different result, depending on what actions are being attempted.

For example, someone with a DEX SR modifier of 0 and a prepared arrow normally fires on SR 1, 6, and 11. Do they fire on 1, 5, and 9 if they use Mobility?

Also for example, if the same character with an unprepared arrow normally fires on SR5 and 10, do they fire on SR4, 8 and 12 if they use Mobility?

[Scotty]

59 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

What does it mean, for example, that Mobility "reduces their strike rank by 1"? In the bow/reloading example above, does that mean it changes the Strike Rank for an action by -1? Or that it reduces the combined DEX+SIZ SR modifiers by 1 (if so, what if they are already zero)? Or that it reduces the SR "cost" for the reload action by 1? These each may have a different result, depending on what actions are being attempted.

To clarify "and reduces their strike rank by 1". So DEX SR4 will become DEX SR3, moving them up the table one step.

59 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

For example, someone with a DEX SR modifier of 0 and a prepared arrow normally fires on SR 1, 6, and 11. Do they fire on 1, 5, and 9 if they use Mobility?

At DEX SR 0, the only benefit of Mobility is double movement. Like with Strength, which if your STR+SIZ is over 40 has no other effect other than increasing your STR by 8. Spirit magic has limits.

59 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

Also for example, if the same character with an unprepared arrow normally fires on SR5 and 10, do they fire on SR4, 8 and 12 if they use Mobility?

No. GMs are always free to rule otherwise in their games, but an adventurer with a DEX SR is already at an advantage, if you want them to have a further advantage then do so.

[Brian Duguid]

Thanks @Scotty, and I completely agree that's how I'd interpret it - to avoid giving excessive advantages to characters with a DEX SR modifier of 0. But it's not 100% clear from the spell description that this is how it's intended to be read, because of the use of the term "strike rank" to mean two different things in the game. This is perfectly illustrated:

4 minutes ago, Scotty said:

To clarify "and reduces their strike rank by 1". So DEX SR4 will become DEX SR3, moving them up the table one step.

But it doesn't say anything about DEX SR, it says "their strike rank", which can be read as allowing a reduction to the actual SR an action occurs on e.g. DEX SR 0, unprepared bow, normally fires on SR5, which becomes SR4 if the Mobility spell description is read in a different way. I think the word "their" is being asked to do way too much work 🙂. A relatively simple clarification (for people like me who evidently read far too much into this) would be "and reduces their DEX strike rank by 1, but not below 0".

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

37 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Like with Strength, which if your STR+SIZ is over 40 has no other effect other than increasing your STR by 8.

Looks like this was talked before, sorry for asking about the clarifying example but...

if a character has already the 2d6 damage bonus, Strength does not take it to 3d6?

[Scotty]

43 minutes ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

if a character has already the 2d6 damage bonus, Strength does not take it to 3d6?

Yes, it's now part of the spell description in the Red Book of Magic page 121. If you don't have RBM ,see Strength in the Q&A.

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

6 minutes ago, Scotty said:

Yes, it's now part of the spell description in the Red Book of Magic page 121. If you don't have RBM ,see Strength in the Q&A.

Oh I missed that, thank you! 

[French Desperate WindChild]

18 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

A relatively simple clarification (for people like me who evidently read far too much into this) would be "and reduces their DEX strike rank by 1, but not below 0".

yes and no

with using strike rank, you have your issue, for sure I understand.

with using "DEX strike rank", you (or other) may have another issue: "does mobility reduce melee strike rank or only DEX strike rank ?"

you may say, "in this case, use weapon strike rank (melee or missile)" but weapon strike rank is "Each weapon has its own strike rank listed in the melee or missile weapon tables in the Combat chapter"

 

maybe change the sentence by "mobility reduces any -physical- action's SR by 1 but not below 0" 😛

well I m not the most qualified to give the best wording, however

[Brian Duguid]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

maybe change the sentence by "mobility reduces any -physical- action's SR by 1 but not below 0" 😛

So long as you don't treat "reload my bow" as a physical action, because that stay at 5 SR even with Mobility.

[Brian Duguid]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

with using "DEX strike rank", you (or other) may have another issue: "does mobility reduce melee strike rank or only DEX strike rank ?"

you may say, "in this case, use weapon strike rank (melee or missile)" but weapon strike rank is "Each weapon has its own strike rank listed in the melee or missile weapon tables in the Combat chapter"

This is why I prefer "DEX SR modifier". Weapon SR is never reduced. Melee SR is normally Weapon SR + DEX SR modifier + SIZ SR modifier. Saying that the "DEX SR modifier" is reduced by 1 except not below 0 then covers both melee and missile attacks.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Brian Duguid said:

This is why I prefer "DEX SR modifier". Weapon SR is never reduced. Melee SR is normally Weapon SR + DEX SR modifier + SIZ SR modifier. Saying that the "DEX SR modifier" is reduced by 1 except not below 0 then covers both melee and missile attacks.

ahah you add "modifier" in your rule !

I agree with you with this last modification 🙂

 

[Bill the barbarian]

4 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

This is why I prefer "DEX SR modifier". Weapon SR is never reduced. Melee SR is normally Weapon SR + DEX SR modifier + SIZ SR modifier. Saying that the "DEX SR modifier" is reduced by 1 except not below 0 then covers both melee and missile attacks.

I never did understand why they took that handy word out of SRs.... I like DEX SR Mods, etc...

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

Wizard of Oz reference aside, I seem to remember that a human with 21 Dex could fire a bow 2 then 3 then 2 then 3 times a round, as long as Melee Rounds were seamless [as they should be]. 

[Scotty]

On 2/24/2022 at 2:45 AM, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Wizard of Oz reference aside, I seem to remember that a human with 21 Dex could fire a bow 2 then 3 then 2 then 3 times a round, as long as Melee Rounds were seamless [as they should be]. 

See table above

[Manimati]

Careful examination of the table above also reveals that in some cases, after all the shooting, there are some strike ranks left for other actions, like spell casting, for example.

[Bill the barbarian]

42 minutes ago, Manimati said:

Careful examination of the table above also reveals that in some cases, after all the shooting, there are some strike ranks left for other actions, like spell casting, for example.

Perhaps not, did you recall adding 5 SRs for spell prep. I believe a multimissile or a speeddart focus can be carved into the bow alleviating the need for the 5 SR prep/change hand time, but the rules are a little hazy on that. It also says shields and swords can can have foci and that time will be saved as a result. Still a bit hazy, if I recall correctly.