RBoM Questions: Rune Points, Rarity of use and replenishment

[JustAnotherVingan]

2 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

oh I was convinced of the opposite

Appologies !

No problems.

Ofc a travelling godi/priest or even an initiate can sanctify an area and lead worship there if there are enough worshippers. Its just all the worshippers know to meet up at the temple on their holy days.

[JRE]

Returning on the minor holy days, I am pretty sure that the clayday ceremonies at Nochet's High Ernalda temple will be better attended and more extensive than Ernalda's seasonal holy day anywhere in Sartar, and even high holy day in most clans. As attending the high holy day will be impossible for the average worshipper, pilgrims will flock on any clayday, and conversely the temple will play up to adequately impress and fleece donations of both magic and mundane goods. 

Lots of people mean an opportunity to renew the runepool. Opportunity to renew the runepool means lots of people. Once you have a critical mass, your worshippers have a lot of magic and can do more things with it, while the fountain of thousands of MPs from a well attended ceremony strengthen the goddess and the compromise. 

That is why I link runepool renewal to attendance and depth of the rites. High holy day will renew even a single worshipper using Sanctify, as the deepest mysteries are there. Others will depend on both the mystical significance but also on how many faithful people are there. Not to sound materialistic, but 100 people giving all but one MP will count for more than 1000 people giving one MP, but the difference for the goddess will be small, and both will attract the attention and therefore the magic of the goddess. 

In Glorantha that is what makes Esrolia so bountiful, impressing people from anywhere in Genertela. A blessed land indeed, at least prior to 1616. 

[svensson]

9 hours ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

No problems.

Ofc a travelling godi/priest or even an initiate can sanctify an area and lead worship there if there are enough worshippers. Its just all the worshippers know to meet up at the temple on their holy days.

In the RQG rules, as some posters here have pointed out to me, 'enough worshipers' can be just the initiate themselves. All that is required is the time necessary [one day] and 1 Rune Point for the Sanctify spell.

[JustAnotherVingan]

44 minutes ago, svensson said:

In the RQG rules, as some posters here have pointed out to me, 'enough worshipers' can be just the initiate themselves. All that is required is the time necessary [one day] and 1 Rune Point for the Sanctify spell.

Thats not how I read the rules.

RQG p315.

Rune points may only be replenished through worship of the deity on a holy day and participation in cult rites.

Rune points can be replenished up to the total the adventurer has with their deity by participating in worship of the deity at a temple, sanctified area, or other holy place to the deity on a holy day and succeeding with a Worship skill roll and an expenditure of at least 2 magic points.

[svensson]

13 minutes ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

Thats not how I read the rules.

RQG p315.

Rune points may only be replenished through worship of the deity on a holy day and participation in cult rites.

Rune points can be replenished up to the total the adventurer has with their deity by participating in worship of the deity at a temple, sanctified area, or other holy place to the deity on a holy day and succeeding with a Worship skill roll and an expenditure of at least 2 magic points.

I should have made myself more clear.

I think that an initiate alone can cast Sanctify and then worship their deity within that area for the required period [a day] to regain RP. It isn't just casting Sanctify in and of itself.

There is a passage in one of Kathryn Kurtz' 'Deryni' books that does a good job of illustrating this sort of thing:

A bishop, Henry, is being held captive and is due to be executed by a rival archbishop. Henry is being denied the sacrament of Last Rites by his enemies and is alone in his cell the night before his dawn execution. Henry is in despair, for he knows he's been true to his God and his oaths and his trial and upcoming execution is unjust.

Then, in the pre-dawn hours, he realizes that the ceremony of Last Rites is just the outward expression of his faith. His God is aware of his faith and the injustice of his plight, and so gives him the realization that one may worship anywhere. He doesn't need a church, or an altar, or wine, or any of the other trappings. His faith is enough.

In the hour before the guards come for him, Bishop Henry conducts a Mass for himself alone. He kisses the stone flags on the floor of his cell to take the Corpus Christi, and the damp walls for the Sanguis Christi. Confessing his brief despair, he says an 'Ave Maria' as the guards arrive...

Edited March 22, 2022 by svensson

[JustAnotherVingan]

27 minutes ago, svensson said:

I should have made myself more clear.

I think that an initiate alone can cast Sanctify and then worship their deity within that area for the required period [a day] to regain RP. It isn't just casting Sanctify in and of itself.

There is a passage in one of Kathryn Kurtz' 'Deryni' books that does a good job of illustrating this sort of thing:

A bishop, Henry, is being held captive and is due to be executed by a rival archbishop. Henry is being denied the sacrament of Last Rites by his enemies and is alone in his cell the night before his dawn execution. Henry is in despair, for he knows he's been true to his God and his oaths and his trial and upcoming execution is unjust.

Then, in the pre-dawn hours, he realizes that the ceremony of Last Rites is just the outward expression of his faith. His God is aware of his faith and the injustice of his plight, and so gives him the realization that one may worship anywhere. He doesn't need a church, or an altar, or wine, or any of the other trappings. His faith is enough.

In the hour before the guards come for him, Bishop Henry conducts a Mass for himself alone. He kisses the stone flags on the floor of his cell to take the Corpus Christi, and the damp walls for the Sanguis Christi. Confessing his brief despair, he says an 'Ave Maria' as the guards arrive...

The important words to me are participation and participating. Worship has to be part of a communal ceremony, not an individual action.

[svensson]

35 minutes ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

The important words to me are participation and participating. Worship has to be part of a communal ceremony, not an individual action.

I see your point, but I think I disagree to an extent.

Firstly, I think that officiating a worship ceremony would reasonably count as 'participation'.

Secondly, it would make it almost impossible for outlier cults to regain RP. There just aren't that many worshipers of acknowledged minor gods like Eurmal, Donadar, and Yinkin running around. I doubt that there are enough Yinkin worshipers in all of Sartar to rate a Minor Temple much less a Major one and it's entirely conceivable that you could count the Priests and God-Talkers on one hand. Even a medium-weight deity like Humakt would have a difficult time with it.

Lastly, it rigidly ties an adventuring party down to a worship calendar more than they already are.

Of course, YGMV, and I'm certainly not saying your wrong. We all look at Glorantha through the lenses of our own experiences.

[JustAnotherVingan]

17 minutes ago, svensson said:

I see your point, but I think I disagree to an extent.

Firstly, I think that officiating a worship ceremony would reasonably count as 'participation'.

Secondly, it would make it almost impossible for outlier cults to regain RP. There just aren't that many worshipers of acknowledged minor gods like Eurmal, Donadar, and Yinkin running around. I doubt that there are enough Yinkin worshipers in all of Sartar to rate a Minor Temple much less a Major one and it's entirely conceivable that you could count the Priests and God-Talkers on one hand. Even a medium-weight deity like Humakt would have a difficult time with it.

Lastly, it rigidly ties an adventuring party down to a worship calendar more than they already are.

Of course, YGMV, and I'm certainly not saying your wrong. We all look at Glorantha through the lenses of our own experiences.

I think you might be underestimating the amount of Yinkin worshippers. There  probably more hunters than professional warriors in Sartar, but yes minor cults would find it harder. I think they would have regional centres for seasonal worship whilst mercenary bands, travelling entertainers etc might support a mobile shrine.

I run a one adventure a season episodic campaign atm so generally I just assume PCs have their rune points back by the next time they adventure.

[svensson]

36 minutes ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

I think you might be underestimating the amount of Yinkin worshippers. There  probably more hunters than professional warriors in Sartar, but yes minor cults would find it harder. I think they would have regional centres for seasonal worship whilst mercenary bands, travelling entertainers etc might support a mobile shrine.

I run a one adventure a season episodic campaign atm so generally I just assume PCs have their rune points back by the next time they adventure.

I could be underestimating the Yinkini... but I think that as a Lightbringer Eurmal is likely to have more worshipers if you figure in Odayla's role as the main Orlanthi hunting god.

As for your more episodic campaign pace, if I were running a game at that pace that's exactly how I'd to it too. Either that or I'd have every character make a Worship Deity roll to see how many points they didn't get for not paying attention during services! 😁 [Lutheran inside joke there]

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 3/21/2022 at 3:12 AM, JRE said:

I will take it as dependent on number of cultitsts present, and raise the threshold for associate cults. So Yinkin is not going to help much Orlanth if they cannot get 50 worshippers in the shrine, ....

Our Gloranthas will vary.  As i read the temple size page (RQiG p. 284)  I actually don't see the 50 number that others have written about.  Though I would swear I've read "50 initiates to found a temple", i can't reference it.

The ranges for the count of lay members plus initiates overlap, and go down to zero for a "site" (which won't replenish most folks' rune points), and a minimum of 75 for a shrine (which will replenish them).    But as I read it those are the total worshiping there regularly, not the number required to be present simultaneously at any single service.

An exception: To establish a spirit shrine takes ten initiates.  (p.378, Congregation)

 

[Shiningbrow]

On 3/22/2022 at 8:16 AM, lordabdul said:

So sure, your Ernaldan can worship in someone's ritual every week or every other week, but at what cost?

Just being pedantic  (but relevant ), your Ernaldan wouldn't go hunting those,  because they already have 1 days per week.

[Shiningbrow]

On 3/22/2022 at 8:16 AM, lordabdul said:

So sure, your Ernaldan can worship in someone's ritual every week or every other week, but at what cost?

Just being pedantic  (but relevant ), your Ernaldan wouldn't go hunting those,  because they already have 1 day per week.

[Shiningbrow]

 

oops, triple post. please remove

Edited March 23, 2022 by Shiningbrow

[Steve]

11 hours ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

The important words to me are participation and participating. Worship has to be part of a communal ceremony, not an individual action.

The Well of Daliath is your friend.

See https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-07-skills/#ib-toc-anchor-27

"Can an initiate perform a Worship ritual?

All initiates have the worship (their deity) skill. It takes a day to perform and costs initiates 2mps to perform, and must be done at a sacred or sanctified place. See page 184.

rather than Worship being a function reserved for priests?

If you imagine a priest as a master of ceremonies or ritual choreographer, they allow for more complex ceremonies, reenactions, ritual preparations or heroquests. Worship is personal, ritual is communal.

So can an initiate worship on his own, say if he is alone on a desert island?

Yes, providing there is a sacred or sanctified place.

Can an initiate lead a Worship ritual? If ten initiates are without a priest can one of them step up, or not?

Yes and the likely the most experienced would likely be expected to. An excellent role playing opportunity. They would not receive any of the benefits that a priest would though."

[JustAnotherVingan]

4 minutes ago, Steve said:

The Well of Daliath is your friend.

See https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-07-skills/#ib-toc-anchor-27

"Can an initiate perform a Worship ritual?

All initiates have the worship (their deity) skill. It takes a day to perform and costs initiates 2mps to perform, and must be done at a sacred or sanctified place. See page 184.

rather than Worship being a function reserved for priests?

If you imagine a priest as a master of ceremonies or ritual choreographer, they allow for more complex ceremonies, reenactions, ritual preparations or heroquests. Worship is personal, ritual is communal.

So can an initiate worship on his own, say if he is alone on a desert island?

Yes, providing there is a sacred or sanctified place.

Can an initiate lead a Worship ritual? If ten initiates are without a priest can one of them step up, or not?

Yes and the likely the most experienced would likely be expected to. An excellent role playing opportunity. They would not receive any of the benefits that a priest would though."

Thanks for the clarification. Not convinced I agree with that ruling.  YGMV.

[soltakss]

A GM can put major obstacles in the way of Adventurers and call it adding flavour to the game.

I don't bother with that, personally.

If someone worships a really obscure deity with one shrine, I normally make some kind of artefact available, allowing them to regain their magic that way, or use shrines in associate cult temples.