RBoM Questions: Rune Points, Rarity of use and replenishment

[svensson]

OK, so I'm re-reading the Red Book of Magic and I find myself coming up with questions. This one deals with rarity or reluctance of worshipers to expend Rune Points and how easily they are replenished. I ask because the availability of worship services to replenish Rune Points can be a real issue for adventuring characters.

First off, let's ask the most basic question: How often can Rune Points be replenished?

I'm going to use the Catholic Church as an example but this  in no way is any commentary about the Catholic Church, pro or con.

'Father Bob', fully ordained priest, casts a 3-RP 'Bless Worshipers' spell on an average Sunday. It is not during one the Church's observed periods of High Worship [neither Lent or Easter, not Christmas or Epiphany, whatever]. When can Father Bob worship for his Rune Points back? The next day during an ordinary Mass? The next Sunday during weekly Mass? Or must he wait until one of the seasonal High Worship days like Easter or Christmas?

Second question: How is 'worship' defined for purposes of replenishing Rune Points? Does 'worship' require an ordained Priest, in RQG terms a Rune master, or can a lone initiate do it?

Edited March 17, 2022 by svensson

[Joerg]

Rune levels leading a worship ceremony gets to replenish their RP. Does this include RP used in the rites? Hopefully yes, especially if Sanctify is needed to turn a Temple to All Deities into the cult's holy place to do the rite.

Rules-lawyering demands that there are 50 worshippers present for the rite, or if there are less worshippers, that they make up for the missing numbers by greater effort (higher MP sacrifices) and possibly use of votive figures to catch some of the slack.

 

Worship leaders include God Talkers, and there are plenty culte where God Talkers go without the priestly benefits, effectively initiates of the cult whose worship they are leading.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Joerg

[Baron Wulfraed]

Don't overlook

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https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-07-skills/#ib-toc-anchor-27

 

[Nick Brooke]

IMG, we ignore "minor holy days" (e.g. "every Windsday," "every Clayday") as below the significance threshold - you only get one meaningful shot at worshipping (and recovering Rune points) per season. If the only way you can worship is by casting Sanctify wherever you happen to be, you don't get to renew that Sanctify spell (because it's still up and running while you worship: same logic for Extensions and the related spells). So every sane and reasonable person will head to the biggest accessible temple they can find on every seasonal holy day. As a sane and reasonable GM, I don't give my players a hard time about this, or require rolls to see how many Rune points are recovered, unless that's a feature of my seasonal adventure (or I otherwise want to jerk them around).

[Godlearner]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

How often can Rune Points be replenished?

We ignore the rules on this point and use the old one of it takes 1 day per point of POW used to re-pray from the Pool and a successful Worship roll. This re-praying can be done in a Sanctified area (Temple, Shirine, or just a Sanctify spell). 

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

First off, let's ask the most basic question: How often can Rune Points be replenished?

Every holy day (minor, major, high, sacred time) for your cult or an associated cult.

For some cults, this means a lot. Personally, I think weekly holy days for the cults that have those are completely excessive.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[ChrisJ]

Since RQG lists minor holy days as one way of renewing RP - I have run allowing my PC's to renew their RP on minor holy days.  At first I also forgot about associated cult holy days too - but these are listed in the RP recovery section.  I have allowed initiates to renew their RP on their own holy days inside a sanctify, but the situation has not arisen for an associate to renew their RP inside the sanctify of another cult - typically my players have been near their temples/shrines on the holy days that allow for associate worship.  As for the RP for the sanctify spell, it is an instant spell (with the effect of sanctification lasting the duration of the ritual), and thus I allow the recovery of the RP used to cast the sanctify spell.

I am however playing a more cyclical campaign as opposed to the proposed single adventure per season described in the RQG rulebook.

YGWV.

Chris

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Don't overlook

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-13-rune-magic-qa/#ib-toc-anchor-3

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-07-skills/#ib-toc-anchor-27

 

I'm going down the replies one at a time, but this DOES help clarify things quite a bit. Not entirely, but a lot.

THX, Wulfy.

[svensson]

57 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

IMG, we ignore "minor holy days" (e.g. "every Windsday," "every Clayday") as below the significance threshold - you only get one meaningful shot at worshipping (and recovering Rune points) per season. If the only way you can worship is by casting Sanctify wherever you happen to be, you don't get to renew that Sanctify spell (because it's still up and running while you worship: same logic for Extensions and the related spells). So every sane and reasonable person will head to the biggest accessible temple they can find on every seasonal holy day. As a sane and reasonable GM, I don't give my players a hard time about this, or require rolls to see how many Rune points are recovered, unless that's a feature of my seasonal adventure (or I otherwise want to jerk them around).

Yeah, I can see that.

If casters can renew Rune Points on a weekly basis, then every other bronze hatchet in Sartar would have a bound spirit in it.

And 'seasonal' isn't so bad in Glorantha... it's only 8 weeks instead of 12 here on Terra Prime.

 

[svensson]

Looking everyone's replies, I'm seeing both some good rules clarifications and some interesting house rules.

Here's my thoughts on the house rule front:

- Initiates can lead worship ceremonies within a Sanctified area [either temporary or permanent]. This is a good motivator for people to put skill points into their Worship [x] skills instead of those of immediate adventuring utility [Scan, Sneak, etc.]

- You do get your Rune Point back for 'Sanctify' if you succeed in the Worship [Deity] roll.

- You can regain 1 RP on your cult's weekly holy day [Godsday by default] under the same conditions as an ordained Rune level... sanctified area, time requirement, Worship skill success, etc. This allows for the worshiper to have that 1 lousy RP needed for Sanctify and solves the min/max type power gamer argument 'That means I lose an RP to adventure with, because I have to keep one in reserve to Sanctify'.

- Weekly worship does not award a skill check, only seasonal Holy Day, High Holy Day, and Sacred Time worship does so.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Note that Eurmal has no set holy days.  They are determined by the priest at each shrine.  Lots of opportunities for PCs of Eurmal or associated cults to bribe the priests (or get them drunk) and regain rune points.

Orlanth also has an extra (single) seasonal holy day at a time TBD.

IMO, these are bad ideas in RAW and our group is limiting this.  It's not like Orlanth and Eurmal are short on associate cults.

[Baron Wulfraed]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

I'm going down the replies one at a time, but this DOES help clarify things quite a bit. Not entirely, but a lot.

THX, Wulfy.

Pity the poor Humakt follower... ONE holy day per season (and none shown for sacred time in the calendar!) One HIGH holy day in the year. Really, how do all these massive killing machines get played? Burn off your RPs in one combat and you are out of it for weeks! You pretty much have to live in the temple and apply every last bonus (MPs, priest, temple size) to ensure getting refilled.

Persuading the temple priests to make room for votive figures/images is really the best guarantee 😱 Especially if you can persuade multiple temples to accept one (maybe possible if working as a caravan guard -- and the end-points of the route have Humakt temples). Still limited to one day a season, but no need to be near the temple if working a caravan.

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Baron Wulfraed

[Baron Wulfraed]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

- Initiates can lead worship ceremonies within a Sanctified area [either temporary or permanent]. This is a good motivator for people to put skill points into their Worship [x] skills instead of those of immediate adventuring utility [Scan, Sneak, etc.]

Unfortunately there is no "lead ritual" skill. Worship is described as personal (everyone in the sanctified area uses their worship skill to determine what they regain; the closest in the rules is page 316: the Sacred Places bonus -- and I suspect a field Sanctify may only reach the level of (temporary) shrine, and no bonus. Possibly Cult Lore could be used for "how to lead a ritual" and somehow augment Worship skills for all attendees.

1 hour ago, svensson said:

- You do get your Rune Point back for 'Sanctify' if you succeed in the Worship [Deity] roll.

I would tend to include the RP in a Sanctify as recoverable -- after all, the recovery is based upon the Worship skill result, and it could be argued that one does not know the result until the end of the (full day) ritual (by which time the sanctify expires).

 

1 hour ago, svensson said:

- You can regain 1 RP on your cult's weekly holy day [Godsday by default] under the same conditions as an ordained Rune level... sanctified area, time requirement, Worship skill success, etc. This allows for the worshiper to have that 1 lousy RP needed for Sanctify and solves the min/max type power gamer argument 'That means I lose an RP to adventure with, because I have to keep one in reserve to Sanctify'.

- Weekly worship does not award a skill check, only seasonal Holy Day, High Holy Day, and Sacred Time worship does so.

Definitely a local ruling, as the books don't mention "weekly holy day", just minor, seasonal, and high (and my favorite victim doesn't even have minor holy days, just one seasonal per season, and one high holy day in the year which is also the seasonal day for that season)

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Unfortunately there is no "lead ritual" skill. Worship is described as personal (everyone in the sanctified area uses their worship skill to determine what they regain; the closest in the rules is page 316: the Sacred Places bonus -- and I suspect a field Sanctify may only reach the level of (temporary) shrine, and no bonus. Possibly Cult Lore could be used for "how to lead a ritual" and somehow augment Worship skills for all attendees.

I always figured that a priest should have a high worship skill because the priest is the one who leads the congregation in worship and also teaches the worship skill.  Why else would the "presiding officials" receive a POW gain roll? (RQiG p.418)  Presiding must make a difference .

So IMG worship is indeed a "lead ritual" skill, even though the individual participants have to make their rolls to get maximum benefit.  Why do I say maximum benefit instead of any benefit? Note that under some circumstances they can fail their worship rolls and still get their RP recovered:  Sacred time, RQiG p.420, "Even on a failure, 2D6 rune points are replenished ..." , and RQiG p,315, High Holy Day "Even on a failure, 2D6 rune points..." Seasonal holy day "with a failure an initate gets 1D3 rune points replenished...". 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
capitalization and punctuation

[Akhôrahil]

13 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I always figures that a priest should have a high worship skill because the priest is the one who leads the congregation in worship and also teaches the worship skill.  why else would the "presiding officials" receive a POW gain roll? )RQiG p.418)  presiding must make a difference .

One of the odd things about the Worship skill is that it barely matters. You will typically have solid bonuses from both temple and day, and the cost of 1 MP for +10% chance of success is trivial. So no-one really needs a good Worship skill for anything but qualifying for Rune Levels, but because they will keep succeeding at Worship at say 95% modified skill all the time, it will rise really quickly anyway.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Squaredeal Sten]

7 hours ago, svensson said:

OK, so I'm re-reading the Red Book of Magic and I find myself coming up with questions. This one deals with rarity or reluctance of worshipers to expend Rune Points and how easily they are replenished. I ask because the availability of worship services to replenish Rune Points can be a real issue for adventuring characters.

First off, let's ask the most basic question: How often can Rune Points be replenished?.....

Second question: How is 'worship' defined for purposes of replenishing Rune Points? Does 'worship' require an ordained Priest, in RQG terms a Rune master, or can a lone initiate do it?

Well it's clear that a number of folks don't like the Rules As Written, but as written Rune points can be replenished on any Holy Day .  RQiG p.315, "Replenishing rune points".

and yes, some cults like Ernalda and also Issaries have minor holy days every week, and have plenty of associated cult holy days to give them another bite at the apple.  That's just consistency with the Gloranthan background.  The high-membership cults have more holy days, and it's easier to find their temples and shrines.  

If your character is a member of an obscure cult or from a foreign land don't be jealous:  I didn't make  you take Humakt who has no associated cults and whose members are few, or take a Pavis initiate to Pamaltela.

Second question: A lone initiate can worship.  If there is no priest around the initiates might draw straws for who leads the ritual, and if there is no temple one of them has to burn a rune point to sanctify, but neither of these circumstances gets your initiate off the hook for regular worship on holy days:  See RQiG p.275, intiates' duties and restrictions, second paragraph.

The only thing priests can do that initiates can't, are (1) initiate someone new into the cult, and (2) teach spells. (Yes I know shamans can teach spirit magic.)  However priests get extra benefits, like easier POW gain and resurrection, and they also have higher skill levels, so are more likely to succeed than initiates are.

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
added paragraph; spelling

[Shiningbrow]

A couple of things.

Firstly, the Associate Cult replenishing is *Only* for the Seasonal or High Holy day... So, only one extra per season. Which is sort of nice if they're 4 weeks apart (maximum from season to season), but sucks if it's the following day (except to top off the replenishment).

Secondly, I'd allow the presiding official to augment the other worshippers Worship, as.it's largely just a "watch, listen, and repeat after me" thing. And as a single roll - if the presiding official gets a crit on their worship, then not only do they get extra RPs back**, but the flock increases their chances. (So, dumping lots of MPs when leading increases.everyone's chances to get  more points back, thus making you more popular!)

Which also means having a high Worship has some benefit... Sure, drop some MPs to increase base RP replenishment. But if an extra 50-80% could increase the amount you get back, then I'd suggest it would become a must-have. (GMs could also rule that you can only double your Worship through MPs...making those popular priests and God-Talkers even more valuable)

 

(** Yes, I'd allow that. Maximum renewal for the occasion)

 

7 hours ago, svensson said:

Weekly worship does not award a skill check, only seasonal Holy Day, High Holy Day, and Sacred Time worship does so.

This is largely irrelevant if you can only increase every season anyway, especially with the MP bonus being used. Also, Worship is an "Occupational" skill that can be increased without a tick anyway.

[svensson]

There seems to be some confusion about Sacred Time here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I read it EVERYBODY'S deity is involved with Sacred Time one way or the other, with the exception of Chaos cults. Each god and goddess [i.e. cult] has a role to play in the ritual rebirth of Glorantha. It would follow therefore that each cult has some form of worship involved with it, even if it's in an 'associate cult' manner.

As I see it, it's entirely appropriate for PCs to attempt a Worship Deity roll to regain RP during Sacred Time. After all, you can get a POW gain check, so why not?

[Squaredeal Sten]

59 minutes ago, svensson said:

There seems to be some confusion about Sacred Time here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I read it EVERYBODY'S deity is involved with Sacred Time one way or the other, with the exception of Chaos cults. Each god and goddess [i.e. cult] has a role to play in the ritual rebirth of Glorantha. It would follow therefore that each cult has some form of worship involved with it, even if it's in an 'associate cult' manner.

As I see it, it's entirely appropriate for PCs to attempt a Worship Deity roll to regain RP during Sacred Time. After all, you can get a POW gain check, so why not?

You are not wrong. 

See RQiG p.315, the first bullet point "Sacred time" paragraph under "Replenishing Rune Points".  There is no cult restriction there.   

Nor do I see a restriction to cults that have listed high holy days during the sacred time according to that page of the Gloranthan calendar. And the text on that page says "everyone".

Edited March 18, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
And the text...

[Joerg]

Compared to RQ3 rune levels get fewer reusable divine magic if you don't allow some replenishment every few weeks, even if you use the"one point per day of ritual activity for rune levels. Under those rules a Chalana Arroy priest(ess) could perform one Resurrection plus Heal Body a week. Or a few Treat Dieser.

[Akhôrahil]

11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, only one extra per season.

Per associated cult. Which Orlanth and Ernalda have tons of.

[Akhôrahil]

15 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Second question: A lone initiate can worship.  If there is no priest around the initiates might draw straws for who leads the ritual, and if there is no temple one of them has to burn a rune point to sanctify, but neither of these circumstances gets your initiate off the hook for regular worship on holy days

I personally don't require Sanctify for the weekly mandatory MP sacrifice, though, only for actual Rune Points regain holy days. Otherwise travelling or adventuring becomes very demanding.

[JustAnotherVingan]

56 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Per associated cult. Which Orlanth and Ernalda have tons of.

Although this does vary by area somewhat. Only in Esrolia are all the Husband-Protectors associated with Ernalda. Yelm only has Ernalda and Yelmalio as associated cults in the Grazelands but many more in Dara Happa.

[French Desperate WindChild]

15 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Second question: A lone initiate can worship.  If there is no priest around the initiates might draw straws for who leads the ritual, and if there is no temple one of them has to burn a rune point to sanctify, but neither of these circumstances gets your initiate off the hook for regular worship on holy days:  See RQiG p.275, intiates' duties and restrictions, second paragraph.

from my perspective, there are two answers depending on one question :

 

why does the pc initiate worship the god ?

- because the player wants a character to be powerful --> forget that the ritual needs 1 pow and without a proper ritual, the bound between the god and the worshippers is not enough strong

- because the player wants to play a devoted character --> of course if you believe, if you have faith, you sacrifice, and there is no sacrifice if you don't lose something (1 pow)

 

so  for me, if you want to participate a ceremony where your god's presence is among the worshippers, yes someone must sacrifice one pow, to "open the door".

But that is my taste. Other may consider that the point of the ceremony is just background, and the play is focused on investigation, fight, or (put the word you like)

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Per associated cult. Which Orlanth and Ernalda have tons of.

Ah, true... true.....