RBoM Questions: Rune Points, Rarity of use and replenishment

[svensson]

OK, maybe I misread that... You can replenish Rune Points for one deity by attending a worship ceremony for an associated deity?

That makes absolutely no sense to me. Regaining Orlanth Rune Points at an Ernaldan festival [most of which have nothing at all to do with Orlanth] seems pretty thin, logically speaking...

[Akhôrahil]

59 minutes ago, svensson said:

OK, maybe I misread that... You can replenish Rune Points for one deity by attending a worship ceremony for an associated deity?

That makes absolutely no sense to me. Regaining Orlanth Rune Points at an Ernaldan festival [most of which have nothing at all to do with Orlanth] seems pretty thin, logically speaking...

Yes.

I picture it as joining in in the role of the associated deity. There’s an Orlanth worship ceremony going on, and you do the Yinkin part in it, earning Yinkin Rune Points.
 

For a lot of smaller cults, this might be your primary way of getting your Rune Points back - temples to Yinkin are not exactly common.

[svensson]

22 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Yes.

I picture it as joining in in the role of the associated deity. There’s an Orlanth worship ceremony going on, and you do the Yinkin part in it, earning Yinkin Rune Points.
 

For a lot of smaller cults, this might be your primary way of getting your Rune Points back - temples to Yinkin are not exactly common.

For smaller cults, I can really see that. You're never going to find a Major Temple of Eurmal or Yinkin. You have a hard enough time finding Major Temples to far more widely worshiped faiths like Humakt or Storm Bull.

But for the big cheeses... Orlanth, Ernalda, Yelm... that's a bit much. That would provide the pantheon leaders a HUGE advantage because they'd only ever be two weeks from some kind of ceremony somewhere.

[Akhôrahil]

13 minutes ago, svensson said:

But for the big cheeses... Orlanth, Ernalda, Yelm... that's a bit much. That would provide the pantheon leaders a HUGE advantage because they'd only ever be two weeks from some kind of ceremony somewhere.

One house-rule that could be applied is that each season gets semi-capped, so that you cannot regain more Rune Points in total for a cult than your best roll in it. For instance, if you get 4 RPs from one Worship ceremony, and then roll an 11 for another that season, you would only gain 7 more. This would create a more predictable RP economy. It’s kinda crazy the hundreds of Rune Points an Ernaldan could potentially spend in a year. How is not every field, every animal and every pregnancy blessed with the right spell for 3+ points?

Edited March 20, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

But for the big cheeses... Orlanth, Ernalda, Yelm... that's a bit much. That would provide the pantheon leaders a HUGE advantage because they'd only ever be two weeks from some kind of ceremony somewhere.

Of course the pantheon leaders do have a HUGE advantage - they ARE the pantheon leaders and predominant cults.

But the way I think about this is mythical (not logical) - what role do those cults play in the ceremonies of the associated cult? 

Ernalda's Seaseason rites include multiple husbands:  Flamal, Orlanth, Yelm.  It's a courtship ritual, and her priestesses will have divined who is most important for this year.  Whoever is favored, gets the Rune Point benefit.

For her Earthseason rites, though, its likely down to Orlanth, and the period from Fertility week to Movement week is almost like a continuous Harvest Festival over three weeks.  But this is when Ernalda begins to withdraw into the Earth, and the rites begin to separate so by the time of Orlanth's ceremonies, the Earth has gone to sleep.  Does Ernalda bolster Orlanth's magic before she sleeps?  If she does, then he gets the Rune Point benefit (but maybe it is immediately spent to drive off the forces of darkness that try to intrude on the rituals?). 

There are a lot of ways to play this out, and I think the GM can make this as flexible as they need.

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

But for the big cheeses... Orlanth, Ernalda, Yelm... that's a bit much. That would provide the pantheon leaders a HUGE advantage because they'd only ever be two weeks from some kind of ceremony somewhere.

But, the big cheeses played big roles in the lesser deities' adventures and survival... 

That's *why* they're the big cheeses... 

(These are the big primordial forces, after all... Difficult to have a solar pantheon god doing something without the sun somehow being involved. And the Seasonal and High Holy days are about making and renewing those connections between the deities in the pantheon)

[French Desperate WindChild]

16 hours ago, svensson said:

But for the big cheeses... Orlanth, Ernalda, Yelm... that's a bit much. That would provide the pantheon leaders a HUGE advantage because they'd only ever be two weeks from some kind of ceremony somewhere.

that is

but is it important ?

you can decide that there is only one worship roll giving RP each season. Then the gain is only more opportunities (today, next week, ...) but only one gain

you can use the smart rule proposed by @Akhôrahil

or you can decide (if you are gm) or hope (if you are player) that the campaign will not advantage so much these worshippers. After all, yes you have three opportunities to replenish your rp this week, but will you be available for this ?

 

and in the other hand... are you happy to see this ernaldan healer full of her rune points or do you prefer to see her unable to replenish them before the battle where you want to be THE hero of the day (so the near dead hero of the day) ?

 

I think about another rule but really too complex to propose to "consummers" (and for a lot of us, at least for me, too complex)

there are a lot of holiday, for each of them, identify who are the associated deities involved. Because during Day A the priest (or the event) will explore one myth, and during this myth, only few (or non) associated deities partipate. So maybe Orlanth is involved iin the LM festival celebrating the law of the tribe (so Orlanth intiates can replenish during it) but when LM priest celebrates how LM found the truth, only Issaries and Storm bull initiates can replenish their RP, not orlanthi

 

the actual rule is simpler, yes you can, but you won't because you have better to do !

[JRE]

I will take it as dependent on number of cultitsts present, and raise the threshold for associate cults. So Yinkin is not going to help much Orlanth if they cannot get 50 worshippers in the shrine, while Orlanth's high holy day will help anyone even loosely related to him, as there will be hundreds or even thousands of people present.

Something similar with the weekly holy days, as if they get enough people, I would play the officiating priest can get RP, though not all the others present, as the ceremony will be less participating, and only at levels above shrine. 

Yes, it reinforces the main deities, as it should. A community priestess in a large city, for me, will always have points, but she will be expected to spend them as fast as she gets them. I would have a normal priest / priestess with always half of the Rune pool already spent, and in moments of crisis much less available. 

[dumuzid]

I've found in play that a truly powerful cult for these sorts of shenanigans is Heler.  Being consort to both the biggest pantheonic figures in the Dragon Pass mythological space means tons of opportunities to regain power over a given season.

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

On 3/17/2022 at 4:15 PM, svensson said:

Rune Points can be a real issue for adventuring characters.

First off, let's ask the most basic question: How often can Rune Points be replenished?

Second question: How is 'worship' defined for purposes of replenishing Rune Points? 

 

For worship I make them spend magic points, those are hard to come by out in the wilds (mgwv)

I translate 1 season=1 adventure and we do it in a language we all agree (it's like lotr, you don't see it all but there is a lot of walking from point a to b). 

A full recovery x adventure and maybe if we play several days, they may get a d6+bonus from a minor/random holy day.

 

On 3/20/2022 at 2:32 AM, Akhôrahil said:

How is not every field, every animal and every pregnancy blessed with the right spell for 3+ points?

Wait!. What would be the problem with that? I kinda like that world. Sure there is no oath for every legal contract in a Terry Pratchett kind of way or a grand market in every bake and sale but I really like the idea of people going to upsala to get their blessings because they work, for real. 

The other option is "Well, sure everyone has non combat spells, she has oath and you have bless pregnancy but whenever you see someone pregnant think about that twice, I'll deduct thay baby blessing from your rune-allowance"

Sounds grim.

[svensson]

19 hours ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

 

For worship I make them spend magic points, those are hard to come by out in the wilds (mgwv)

I translate 1 season=1 adventure and we do it in a language we all agree (it's like lotr, you don't see it all but there is a lot of walking from point a to b). 

A full recovery x adventure and maybe if we play several days, they may get a d6+bonus from a minor/random holy day.

Yeah, there are several 'real life' things that I've learned as a medieval and Civil War reenactor that I impose on my games too.

Just a couple things:

- Weather counts when traveling; if it's blazing hot and muggy [over 90 degF /32 C with a high dew point] or cold and rainy [say 35 degF /2 C] you're gonna move A LOT slower

- Care of mounts takes time; you can't treat your mount like a pick up truck... Mounts require as much care as you do

- 'Iron Rations' don't actually save you weight; Most foods preserved for travel are either salted or dried. In order to use them you have to re-hydrate them or soak them [beans or salted meat] to make them edible. The savings in weight is made up for in having to carry enough water, a minimum of 2 qt. /2 l. OTOH, your food isn't rancid and give you food borne illnesses or worse...

- I have some old medieval gear I used as a reenactor. I show it to my players, letting them get an idea of how heavy a sword is or multiple layers of wool; I show them Civil War era rations [salt pork, hard tack biscuit, etc.]. And then I say, 'Glorantha doesn't have Bags of Holding. You will never be able to carry every copper Clack or lead Bolg. I can be a jerk about this and make you account for every single ENC, or we can be more casual about it. If you respect your loads, I'll give you some fudge room.'

Edited March 22, 2022 by svensson

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

5 minutes ago, svensson said:

Yeah, there are several 'real life' things that I've learned as a medieval and Civil War reenactor that I impose on my games too.

Just a couple things:

- Weather counts when traveling; if it's blazing hot and muggy [over 90 degF /32 C with a high dew point] or cold and rainy [say 35 degF /2 C] you're gonna move A LOT slower

- Care of mounts takes time; you can't treat your mount like pick up truck... Mounts require as much care as you do

- 'Iron Rations' don't actually save you weight; Most foods preserved for travel are either salted or dried. In order to use them you have to re-hydrate them or soak them [beans or salted meat] to make them edible. The savings in weight is made up for in having to carry enough water, a minimum of 2 qt. /2 l. OTOH, your food isn't rancid and give you food borne illnesses or worse...

Oh I'm totally using this next time!

5 minutes ago, svensson said:

- I have some old medieval gear I used as a reenactor. I show it to my players, letting them get an idea of how heavy a sword is or multiple layers of wool; I show them Civil War era rations [salt pork, hard tack biscuit, etc.]. And then I say, 'Glorantha doesn't have Bags of Holding. You will never be able to carry every copper Clack or lead Bolg. I can be a jerk about this and make you account for every single ENC, or we can be more casual about it. If you respect your loads, I'll give you some fudge room.'

Gear is weird, we are so used to magic items bing the reward that nobody wants to leave anything behind. 

[Shiningbrow]

On 3/21/2022 at 12:41 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

there are a lot of holiday, for each of them, identify who are the associated deities involved. Because during Day A the priest (or the event) will explore one myth, and during this myth, only few (or non) associated deities partipate. So maybe Orlanth is involved iin the LM festival celebrating the law of the tribe (so Orlanth intiates can replenish during it) but when LM priest celebrates how LM found the truth, only Issaries and Storm bull initiates can replenish their RP, not orlanthi

I like it!

[svensson]

Well, I'm an Old Geek. Way back when rocks were soft, the original DnD gave out experience points for how much loot you could escape the dungeon with. In that era, we had absolutely no thought whatsoever about actually clearing the place of bad guys and looting it down to flagstones. Because of that, it 'trained' us to grab anything of any conceivable value and try and haul it out.

And a host of computer games hasn't helped that any.

That's why I like the RQ ENC system over actual weight measurements. ENC measures how bulky something is, how big a pain in the ass it is to ruck around with you. For example, a medium shield has 2 ENC. But if a player tells me that he wants to carry an additional shield... one he's using and one strapped to his back... I'm gonna DOUBLE that ENC value. The extra shield is actually more in the way of everything he's trying to do [including walking!], so it had better be worth it to carry around.

Edited March 22, 2022 by svensson

[Lordabdul]

On 3/19/2022 at 3:51 PM, svensson said:

OK, maybe I misread that... You can replenish Rune Points for one deity by attending a worship ceremony for an associated deity?

That makes absolutely no sense to me.

It makes total sense to me. As others mentioned, worship of Ernalda will almost definitely involve stories about Orlanth and Argan Argar and Babeester Gor and whatever. So as a worshipper of these cults, you have a place at Ernalda's ceremony. It's like, say, you're a big fan of The Hulk? Well, you're going to watch Thor Ragnarok because even though it's a Thor movie, the Hulk is in it quite a lot.

Warning: as always, cult relationships are not necessarily symmetrical. Orlanth is an associated cult of Engizi, but not vice-versa.

Also, you can worship at your cult's associated deities seasonal and high holy days only. And you only get 1D6 Rune Points back (assuming you succeed your Worship roll, but that's hard to mess up with MPs and offerings, although note that you don't get the holy day bonuses that the main cult worshippers get).

On 3/19/2022 at 5:32 PM, Akhôrahil said:

It’s kinda crazy the hundreds of Rune Points an Ernaldan could potentially spend in a year. How is not every field, every animal and every pregnancy blessed with the right spell for 3+ points?

Remember that you need to spend the whole day participating in those associated cults' seasonal or high holy days. Assuming you want to succeed the Worship roll, and since you don't get any day/location bonuses in this case, you might have to make offerings in wealth or in MPs (the pre-gens have between 35% and 55% in Worship, except Yanioth who has 70%... maybe your PCs have more I don't know). With MPs, depending on how much you spent, you might only recover fully some time in the afternoon of the next day. With other offerings, you're going to go broke pretty quickly.

So sure, your Ernaldan can worship in someone's ritual every week or every other week, but at what cost? And for only 3 RPs on average? In addition to the time spent at the ritual and part of the following day resting, you need to add time to travel there. Look at Ernalda's associated cults: unless you're living in a major city, you might have to spend a day travelling to a Babeester Gor or Maran Gor shrine. You might have to travel more to find an elf grove that worships Aldrya, or a troll-friendly place that worships Argan Argar, and so on. At this point, everybody says that you're "that girl" who doesn't do shit around the Earth temple, because instead of actually working she's always going out to get laid and drunk and oh do you know she lost our temple's sacred snake tiara because she took it once and passed out in a meadow with it and when she woke up it was gone? Yeah, we all hate her, she's full of shit. Let's go fill her panties with ants for fun.

By the way, I actually built a big spreadsheet a while ago to wrap my head around the magic economy of RuneQuest. And yes, Phil and Nick, I know I know, Glorantha isn't a RuneQuest simulation and yaddi yadda. Still, I played with it, because I like spreadsheets. Sue me. Anyway, once you start factoring the number of people in a tribe, the number of fields, of pregnancy, how much fighting there is and how many people need healing, and so on... that magic goes quick.  It varies a lot based on your parameters, but when I entered parameters I was happy with, my Ernaldans could only bless less than half of the fields.

Edited March 22, 2022 by lordabdul

[Akhôrahil]

28 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Remember that you need to spend the whole day participating in those associated cults' seasonal or high holy days. Assuming you want to succeed the Worship roll, and since you don't get any day/location bonuses in this case, you might have to make offerings in wealth or in MPs (the pre-gens have between 35% and 55% in Worship, except Yanioth who has 70%... maybe your PCs have more I don't know). With MPs, depending on how much you spent, you might only recover fully some time in the afternoon of the next day. With other offerings, you're going to go broke pretty quickly.

Rapidly increasing Worship skills + temple and day bonuses + topping up with MPs means that I have yet to see anyone roll at less than 95%. Everyone should have a full tank the next morning at the very latest - the MP cost is low and a few points are all you need.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Lordabdul]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

temple and day bonuses

As I mentioned, and as clarified in the Q&A: nope. Not for associated worship.

[Akhôrahil]

5 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

As I mentioned, and as clarified in the Q&A: nope. Not for associated worship.

Huh, really? That was unexpected.

On the other hand, that just adds a couple of MPs. You’re likely full the next morning, and does it really matter even if you would be down a point or two?

[Lordabdul]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

You’re likely full the next morning, and does it really matter even if you would be down a point or two?

According to my lengthy explanations, that's frankly the least of your worries compared to everything else. But hey, I gave you my explanations of why RPs are still limited. Feel free to post your own explanations if you don't find mine convincing. Or, you know, have PCs and NPCs travelling left and right every week.

[Akhôrahil]

I’m a little unclear on exactly what the requirements for Worship are when it’s an Associated Cult’s holy day. Sanctify doesn’t seem cult-specific, so your own Sanctify would work. Do you need an initiate of the regular cult to lead the Worship when yours is associated, and/or do you need members of the regular cult to participate? I think it makes sense to require this, but the rules aren’t explicit. If  you can both make your own sanctified area and run your own Worship, then the need for travel is obviated (although you earn one less RP).

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Sanctify doesn’t seem cult-specific, so your own Sanctify would work.

The Red Book of Magic tweaked the wording to make it clear: "Cult members can perform ceremonies within a Sanctified area as if it were a temple, such as replenishing Rune points."  (emphasis mine)

So no, obviously you cannot lead or solo-perform worship ceremonies for cults you don't know the secrets of.

[Rob Darvall]

On 3/18/2022 at 2:00 AM, Nick Brooke said:

IMG, we ignore "minor holy days" (e.g. "every Windsday," "every Clayday") as below the significance threshold - you only get one meaningful shot at worshipping (and recovering Rune points) per season. If the only way you can worship is by casting Sanctify wherever you happen to be, you don't get to renew that Sanctify spell (because it's still up and running while you worship: same logic for Extensions and the related spells). So every sane and reasonable person will head to the biggest accessible temple they can find on every seasonal holy day. As a sane and reasonable GM, I don't give my players a hard time about this, or require rolls to see how many Rune points are recovered, unless that's a feature of my seasonal adventure (or I otherwise want to jerk them around).

I use a similar approach because it puts a logical, in-game time pressure on the party. 

They try to avoid having to use Sanctify and so are pushing to get back to the Temple before the holy day.

The Scribe (our now 9 nearly 10 yo player) being the only literate character is charged with keeping the calendar. This helps keep the player engaged with a character who is less hack-and-slay than he might otherwise prefer. Which goes to my favoured reason for restricting rune point renewal, it engages the players with the world. This is true of D&D too. Actions are planned around rests.

[French Desperate WindChild]

8 hours ago, lordabdul said:

So sure, your Ernaldan can worship in someone's ritual every week or every other week, but at what cost? And for only 3 RPs on average? In addition to the time spent at the ritual and part of the following day resting, you need to add time to travel there. Look at Ernalda's associated cults: unless you're living in a major city, you might have to spend a day travelling to a Babeester Gor or Maran Gor shrine.

I agree with your post, but just a remark, the issue there is not to spend a day to find Bab or Maran's shrine. The shrines are  may be in your Ernalda temple (maybe not the case for Aldrya).

Note the issue may be bigger: you have to find a cultist of Bab's/ Maran's to lead the ceremony. Not sure you will find it in your local clan every time you need to replenish your runepool you want to worship your god !

And... if a GM wants to reduce the opportunity, she just have to say that all cultists are travelling to the far temple (2 days at least) for a bigger ceremony this day.

Edited March 22, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild
shrines in temple

[JustAnotherVingan]

20 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I agree with your post, but just a remark, the issue there is not to spend a day to find Bab or Maran's shrine. The shrines are in your Ernalda temple (maybe not the case for Aldrya).

Note the issue may be bigger: you have to find a cultist of Bab's/ Maran's to lead the ceremony. Not sure you will find it in your local clan every time you need to replenish your runepool you want to worship your god !

And... if a GM wants to reduce the opportunity, she just have to say that all cultists are travelling to the far temple (2 days at least) for a bigger ceremony this day.

Not every temple has shrines to all the associated cults.

Judging by RQG p284 a typical minor temple has no associated cults. A Sartarite clan temple is typically a minor temple of Orlanth and Ernalda amd may have a subcult shrine as well.

To worship Asrelia, Babeestor Gor, Maran Gor or Flamal in Colymar lands you have to go to Clearwine. To worship Aldrya you have to go to Tarndisi's Grove.

The pattern is clear. Its easy in Sartarite lands to find somewhere to worship Ernalda or Orlanth, other dieties will require at least some travel. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 minute ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

Judging by RQG p284 a typical minor temple has no associated cults. A Sartarite clan temple is typically a minor temple of Orlanth and Ernalda amd may have a subcult shrine as well.

oh I was convinced of the opposite

Appologies !