Loyalty and Cities

[WindyHoof47]

Apologies if this has been covered but i need a little input on two points

1.) The PC's in my group are all Sartarites and were raised in Boldhome.  My question is does Loyalty (City) replace Loyalty (Tribe) ?

I kinda see Tribe as a more rural factor ?  Obviously Family & Clan should be measured with loyalty as usual.

2.) Would Loyalty (Family / Clan ) not be more accurate than Love? I mean people are generally loyal to their families but in many cases don't love them; you can choose your friends but not your family.  

Thanks

[David Scott]

This is a great question and also overlaps into other cities. Perhaps @Jeff might comment.

[French Desperate WindChild]

from my perspective everything is possible, even in the same group of players

1) you are a sartarite in Boldhome ? you may have a passion to the city, to one of the city tribes (your tribe) , or even to Sartar (the kingdom) because it is its capital. But you can be too loyal to both the city and the tribe

2) do you love or are you loyal to your clan or your family ? why not hate them ?

You even may be loyal and hate the same person / group. Or you may love your clan lands but hate your clan people

 

For me everything is possible, definitely if the player explains it (and then give the GM some potential hook for scenario)

 

but I'm not exactly follower of the rules as written (link my own passions)

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, WindyHoof47 said:

My question is does Loyalty (City) replace Loyalty (Tribe) ?

It certainly can! Note that there are tribal halls in Boldhome (some part of each tribe has members there), so you could have both.

3 hours ago, WindyHoof47 said:

Would Loyalty (Family / Clan ) not be more accurate than Love? I mean people are generally loyal to their families but in many cases don't love them; you can choose your friends but not your family. 

Leave it to the players to determine.  I'd say that Clan is always a Loyalty relationship - as a large unit, it doesn't really fit having a Love relationship.  For Family, yes, it could be either Loyalty or Love.  

 

 

[Darius West]

Personal loyalties are a very moot point.  Remember that the people who inhabit Boldhome may well come from various tribes and clans and be immigrants.  As to the people in the city, well, is their loyalty to the City or directly to the King or Crown?  Sartar is a kingdom, not a city state.   Furthermore, you can assume that many districts of cities will have what amounts to ethnic Orlanthi tribal enclaves for the various tribes who contribute to making the city work.  For example, there will be clans that run businesses dealing in their produce (beer, cloth, wool metal etc), and which own and rent local real estate to their clan members in the city, or other people.  These will create odd little ghettos of clan and tribal loyalties, with their own feuds and politics.  While you are unlikely to face the formal hospitality customs you might meet in tribal and clan areas, a city has its own cultural norms that will be alien to newcomers.  

People born and raised in an urban environments will be an oddity, as Bronze Age society is rural by a factor of 95%, especially in Sartar.  While the cities represent an agglomeration of capital and production, they really exist to provide goods and services to the rural areas rather than the other way around as it is today.  Cities represent a perpetual market and collection point of wealth, but one which is constantly being redistributed back to rural areas.  Rural areas don't deal much in coins, while cities do, but for this reason, coins tend to stay in cities, and don't circulate into rural areas.  Sick of being cheated, the tribes will set up the means for goods from their people are traded for at fair exchange in their enclaves, often to fill pre-existing contracts.

As such, it is possible to have a passion for one's city, but more likely that an  city dwelling character will be loyal to their Guild, their district Ring member,  their gang, their King, etc.  There is a lot more to be loyal to in a city, but loyalty to one's tribe or clan will mean a sort of ethnic enclave ghetto exists and that holds the character's loyalty.

[Lordabdul]

6 hours ago, WindyHoof47 said:

1.) The PC's in my group are all Sartarites and were raised in Boldhome.  My question is does Loyalty (City) replace Loyalty (Tribe) ?

It can yes. It's not a hard rule -- it depends on each character and their backstory. Some might still have a tribal loyalty, some might have a city loyalty, and yet others might have some other loyalty or no loyalty at all (although that's unlikely).

Imagine you're playing in a modern setting game and you want to model an FBI agent working in Austin but who grew up in a small town in Wyoming. What is their personal relationship to the USA as a whole (they have federal jurisdiction and duty after all), to the Austin office (they might have a mentor there they are loyal to), and to the folks back home in Wyoming (maybe they hate them and never want to go back, or maybe they're longing to get back there) ?  It all depends, right ? Same with your Gloranthan characters. They might belong to one of the cross-tribal cults (most of the specialist cults with low numbers, really) or have a cross-tribal position (Orlanth god-talker or city temple staff or whatever) and might consider themselves more a "Boldhomite" (or whatever they're called) and less a this-or-that-tribe-member. Or maybe their lineage is a mess of multiple marriages between tribes, going back generations, and the one common thing is that the past 4 generations have lived in Boldhome.

Basically, feel free to deviate from the Family History guidelines in the rulebook. Figure out who the characters are, and then model it with Passions -- not the other way around.

 

6 hours ago, WindyHoof47 said:

2.) Would Loyalty (Family / Clan ) not be more accurate than Love? I mean people are generally loyal to their families but in many cases don't love them; you can choose your friends but not your family. 

You can be loyal to somebody you don't love (you probably don't love your military commander!). Plus, you can be loyal to an institution (temple, tribe, etc) regardless of the individuals in it, and whether they come and go. On the other hand, you can love someone you're not loyal to (you're not going to follow the orders of your 8-year-old nephew, right?) 

There is some overlap though -- you can get "inspired" by both loyalty and love, and you can ask for support out of loyalty and love too. Mechanically they're pretty similar, so just pick the label that seems to better fit... it will get used the same way in game anyway.

Edited May 12, 2022 by lordabdul

[Shiningbrow]

15 hours ago, WindyHoof47 said:

Would Loyalty (Family / Clan ) not be more accurate than Love? I mean people are generally loyal to their families but in many cases don't love them; you can choose your friends but not your family.  

Two words... Blood Fued.

The Love of family demands you enact vengeance. 

The Loyalty says you obey the head of the family to not bring down the wrath of the clan.

 

[WindyHoof47]

Hey thanks very much for your responses. 

Darius West, your reply detailing economy and produce really helped; also the rural / urban bronze age angle

Lordabdul, great example using country, state and city!  

However these loyalties / loves pan out with the PC's, they are so getting used in the campaign { kinda the point yes?} by me just as much for inspiration rolls!

[JRE]

In my opinion the use of passions as inspiration is a carrot to make players take passions, but their main purpose is to give GMs a tool to direct the players to the game they want to play. Do you want to make them visit the Zola Fel valley? Have someone they respect (loyalty) send them there, or have someone they love be at risk.

Having similar loyalties helps with this, which is why many parties are from the same clan or tribe, as a single leader can command all of them. Boldhome could work similarly, though for a good part of the period Boldhome is an occuppied city, without an unified leadership to direct the players, if you do not count the Lunars, so it will be less useful as a play aid than, for instance, Loyalty (Colymar).

Once they get stronger, the players can be more proactive, with their loyalty making players take self imposed missions because they consider it will be good for their city, without the need of a guiding hand except in special cases. 

[Jeff]

On 5/12/2022 at 5:00 AM, WindyHoof47 said:

Apologies if this has been covered but i need a little input on two points

1.) The PC's in my group are all Sartarites and were raised in Boldhome.  My question is does Loyalty (City) replace Loyalty (Tribe) ?

I kinda see Tribe as a more rural factor ?  Obviously Family & Clan should be measured with loyalty as usual.

2.) Would Loyalty (Family / Clan ) not be more accurate than Love? I mean people are generally loyal to their families but in many cases don't love them; you can choose your friends but not your family.  

Thanks

1). It can or it can supplement it (so Loyalty Tribe AND Loyalty Boldhome). The inhabitants of Boldhome are mostly members of Sartarite tribes.

Tribe	Boldhome
Aranwyth	350
Balkoth	200
Balmyr	350
Cinsina	500
Colymar	550
Culbrea	550
Dinacoli	150
Dundealos	250
Kheldon	900
Kultain	150
Lismelder	100
Locaem	200
Malani	300
Sambarri	350
Telmori	450
Torkani	300
Alone	200
Aldachur	350

 

2). Love is correct for Family, Loyalty for Clan.