where can I find Velhara ?

[French Desperate WindChild]

I know she can be "seen" in the Forest of the Winds but if mundane people meet her, where can it be ?

 

I think any where in Dragon pass forest, but what about Balazar or even further ?

 

[Darius West]

14 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I think any where in Dragon pass forest, but what about Balazar or even further ?

I personally think she's Dragon Pass only.  Prax is the wrong kind of wilderness.  I have never heard of her going south of the Line of Death.  She may have appeared in Tarsh, but has likely been hemmed in along with Orlanthi worship.  I think I would let her roam Dagori Inkarth.  I think she's ok for Balazar too.

[JRE]

Although that was long ago, the Penentelli in Aggar were among her worshippers. She is Kerofin's daughter, so although she will be easier to find in Dragon Pass, I would expect most of the old Vingkotling area, from Aggar to Esrolia, but only in wild areas, so Esrolia will be a no right now. I do not see her in Balazar. No mythical resonance and the hsunchen do not need her. Although I would allow her in Tarsh, I would keep her away of the Glowline. Too tame for her, and under other's control.

Best place would be Beast Valley, of course. And I would skip Elf Forests. She is mistress of Beasts, not Plants. 

I would make it easiest for a Yinkini in the Yinkin hills, or an Odaylan in bear shape with no other human in several kilometers/miles, or a Centaur trying to follow Ironhoof's quest.

Prax is forbidden. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by JRE
An extra idea.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I know she can be "seen" in the Forest of the Winds but if mundane people meet her, where can it be ?

I think any where in Dragon pass forest, but what about Balazar or even further ?

I place her anywhere there are wild, uncultivated lands!  

Definitely in Balazar and the Elder Wilds.

The Forest of Wondrous Beasts beyond Black Horse county.

The Uncertain Woods of Heortland.

Probably the uplands along the Rockwoods from Aggar through Talastar and Brolia and into Charg.

All you really need is land without agriculture, cultivation, or pasturage.  But that could include small spaces too such as the Colymar Wilds which surround Tarndisi's Grove.

[svensson]

According to Father Odin, you have to die with a sword in your hand... 😁

[Oh, quit it! I'm NOT the only person on this board who think that!]

[French Desperate WindChild]

10 hours ago, svensson said:

According to Father Odin, you have to die with a sword in your hand... 😁

[Oh, quit it! I'm NOT the only person on this board who think that!]

Hum after few minutes to understand your words (or sounds ?) , I can confirm that you are maybe the only one but that’s the fate of any eurmali, even among his peers, isn’t it ? 🤪

[French Desperate WindChild]

10 hours ago, jajagappa said:

But that could include small spaces too such as the Colymar Wilds which surround Tarndisi's Grove.

Don’t know if it is still canon but this lands were named in hq (level Orlanth / level Heort / level pc )

in fact larger the « little » issue I have is to understand the range of any god/dess 

clear for the sun, the see, the cloud

Clear (well I hope) for a local river or earth territory

but what about the minor divinities (no offense my lady_, I love your so cute hoofs ) who are not clearly universally known ?

[JRE]

That is why I do not feel her right for Balazar and the Elder Wilds, because she was a deity of the Vigkotlings, important at Dawn when so much of the land was wild, but losing importance as the "empty spaces" became less empty.

She found a second role (she helped them, but they also helped her stay relevant) with Ironhoof and the beasts. And she will always remain relevant for Yinkini and Odaylans, though they may be losing importance in Third Age Dragon Pass.

And I forgot to add you can meet her in Kero Fin slopes, visiting dear mother. Sometimes myths are straightforward, but you may have to cope with the Mountain and the Storms if you try to catch her there. 

[Brian Duguid]

Very specifically a deity related to how "civilised" people encounter the wilderness; I think she's entirely unknown to the animist peoples of the wilds, like the Hsunchen, who have no such need to personify "wildness".

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

Very specifically a deity related to how "civilised" people encounter the wilderness; I think she's entirely unknown to the animist peoples of the wilds, like the Hsunchen, who have no such need to personify "wildness".

mmm don't know: she exists, it's a fact (in glorantha I mean). So maybe she  avoid them, but for me where she is, other may know (at least stories) she is here

Now that doesn't mean they need her, they don't worship her, maybe they see her as any other nymph or spirit, etc..

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

That is why I do not feel her right for Balazar and the Elder Wilds

I have a problem with your insistense ( 😛 joke, no problem at all sir , continue please to support me)  :  that implies I have to break and rebuild all my story and temporal line . Will see. But to secure my plan and to avoid any discussion (even if some wise knowledge master said I can) , I may follow your setting (aka in dragon pass, the lowest common denominator)

Thanks a lot all, don't hesitate to debate (  ) enrich my knowledge here about the goddess too.(and of course the other points I will ask in few days /weeks).

[JRE]

You are openly invited to chuck away the parts you do not like from Chaosium's work. Even more easily you should chuck away anything I write you do not like. I just try to use common sense, a half remembered mastery of the old sources, and interest in how things work behind the curtain to propose ideas. 

Some changes. You could place some Vinkogtling clans in the Elder Wilds, now disappeared, and Velhara arrived with them and stayed. Or you can consider that she is not a cultural goddess of some orlanthi but an older, deeper goddess, probably descendant from Gata rather than Kero Fin (which is a minor aspect of Gata after all). You could change her name to Tara and probably most nitpickers will shake their heads but say nothing. Or you can decide Velhara is cool and she is perfectly at home in Balazar, and if you make a good history, nothing else matters.

 

[JRE]

Balazar is on the other side of the mountains, and difficult to reach from Kerofinela, which is another reason why I do not see Velhara there, and also why it is difficult to place Vingkotlings there. Difficult but not impossible, as we are talking about pre-Dawn.

Edited May 19, 2022 by JRE

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, JRE said:

That is why I do not feel her right for Balazar and the Elder Wilds, because she was a deity of the Vigkotlings, important at Dawn when so much of the land was wild, but losing importance as the "empty spaces" became less empty.

This is the Lady of the Wild, and not just a Vingkotling deity.  Wherever the wilds exist (and they do return when civilizations fall), you can find her.  If there are still hunters and uninhabited spaces, you can find her.  The myths of Orogeria in Peloria (in Entekosiad) connect very closely with this figure.

She is noted on the Gods Wall (Guide p.677 in commentary on Thilla): Thilla does hold a branching root, but this is the antler of a deer, indicating Orogeria, the Great Huntress, Lady of the Wild, and Keeper of Life and Death. She is sometimes said to be the sister of Thilla and sometimes Ulurdra. The Lunars identify Orogeria as one of the ancient seven Moon goddesses and goddess of the Ascending Blue Moon. In vixen shape she taught her starving people to hunt with bows and to trap so they survived the darkness.

Agree that she loses importance though when civilization encroaches.  But there is plenty of wilderness still in Balazar and the Elder Wilds.

[JRE]

Maybe I am a bit obsessed in avoiding my monomythical youthful excesses, but for me names matter. I would have no problem with meeting Orogeria in Balazar. But Velhara, daughter of Kero Fin, sister of Orlanth and Yinkin, lover of both? No.

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 minutes ago, JRE said:

Maybe I am a bit obsessed in avoiding my monomythical youthful excesses, but for me names matter. I would have no problem with meeting Orogeria in Balazar. But Velhara, daughter of Kero Fin, sister of Orlanth and Yinkin, lover of both? No.

oh  your answer is very interesting and so aligned with what I want but not expected with this question

 

@JRE = what the storm priests may say

@jajagappa = what the monomyth philosopher (?) may say

 

that is exactly the subject of my story !

"No you didn't meet Velhara so far, she is OUR goddess"

"And yet, she moves"

Galileo when you hold us

A great surprise !

thanks a lot

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, JRE said:

I would have no problem with meeting Orogeria in Balazar. But Velhara, daughter of Kero Fin, sister of Orlanth and Yinkin, lover of both? No.

The Masks of Gods and Goddesses are many!  Which face do you see, which name do you hear... 

[JRE]

What matters is not the name I hear, as I know who I am, but the name I use to call my beloved, the name she answers to.

Edited May 19, 2022 by JRE

[Brian Duguid]

On 5/19/2022 at 12:40 PM, jajagappa said:

This is the Lady of the Wild, and not just a Vingkotling deity.  Wherever the wilds exist (and they do return when civilizations fall), you can find her.  If there are still hunters and uninhabited spaces, you can find her.  The myths of Orogeria in Peloria (in Entekosiad) connect very closely with this figure.

She is noted on the Gods Wall (Guide p.677 in commentary on Thilla): Thilla does hold a branching root, but this is the antler of a deer, indicating Orogeria, the Great Huntress, Lady of the Wild, and Keeper of Life and Death. She is sometimes said to be the sister of Thilla and sometimes Ulurdra. The Lunars identify Orogeria as one of the ancient seven Moon goddesses and goddess of the Ascending Blue Moon. In vixen shape she taught her starving people to hunt with bows and to trap so they survived the darkness.

I'm still an explicit "no" on some of this. The Book of Heortling Mythology is deeply unreliable, but is clear that: "She is the mother and protector of all wild things, animals, and spirits of Dragon Pass. She is present in the primeval forests, hidden groves and valleys, streams and caves of Kerofinela." (My emphases). I have no problem with that being a Heortling perspective, and note the relationship to Orogeria.

But she's not, for example, a Hsunchen entity, I can't see any obvious analogue in the Korgatsu spirit tradition; she has no obvious analogue amongst the pantheons of the First Age Enerali; nor amongt the animal nomads. Her whole shtick is the lady of the "wild", which is only sensibly a meaningful term to the agricultural and urban societies. It comes directly from their sense of alienation from unspoilt nature, their having fallen from Eden / the Golden Age / etc. The people and beasts who actually live in what others call the "wilderness" just call it "home"; it's not an alien environment, and many primitive societies (IRL and I'm sure in Glorantha) don't see a clear dichotomy between themselves and nature. Especially the Hsunchen, who are deeply embedded in their environment and may not see themselves as separate from it, given their recognition that they are indeed animals.

So sure: I can see Velhara in many "wildernesses", but an entity who only really exists as a necessary reflection of civilised cultures. IMG there must be "wild" territories where she has no role.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Brian Duguid
Typos

[Eff]

Of course, the relationship between Orogeria/Ulurda and the elurae, the fox women, seems pretty obvious, so there's a hsunchen-adjacent connection going on here.

But let's think about her from a functional perspective- what she does is mediate your interactions with dangerous places. For settled agricultural Heortlings, this is "the wild", and for urbanized Pelorians, this was the entire hinterland beyond the city. These dichotomies don't exist for other cultures, but they still have an understanding of dangerous places, so there might not be a Lady of the Wild, but there could well be a Vulture Woman or the Arctic Fox Lady at the edge of risky places. Someone to propitiate when you have to enter them, and someone who might entice you into danger when you're alone or isolated. And maybe for hsunchen communities there are several Ladies of the Unfriendly Biome that must be dealt with in their own ways. 

So what happens when people with these different understandings of danger and risk collide and try to speak with her at the same time? 

Ever heard a fox laughing? 

 

[scott-martin]

Lore has already given us a built-in way to check. Create a campaign around a person (*) who has a relationship with the goddess and let them try to contact the goddess in various parts of the world. Where contact can be established, you can find the goddess. And where there are already people (*) who acknowledge someone like the goddess, see if you can worship together. If so, their local deity and your goddess are close enough. Velhara already lives there. She might have different rites there but you know who she is.

Or maybe the local people (*) don't recall anyone like the goddess. See if they'd like to learn.

* Two legs, four legs, six legs, eight legs, no legs, whoever. "People."

[Akhôrahil]

On 5/18/2022 at 9:41 PM, jajagappa said:

Probably the uplands along the Rockwoods from Aggar through Talastar and Brolia and into Charg.

I agree with this, especially in Skanthiland. The Skanthi were a Penenthelli clan, and hence had a major Lady of the Wild cult during the Great Darkness. They also ended up in a particularly wild and infertile region where hunting is going to matter a lot more than usual.

[Akhôrahil]

Also, "Velhara" is the Lady of the Wild among the Heortlings, which strongly suggests that there's a non-Heortling Lady of the Wild, only not under that name (explicitly among the Grazers, for instance). So while there may be no Velhara in Balazar, the Lady of the Wild might still be present under a different name.

I would also hypothesize a connection to the Wild Women, the "mobile nymphs" of the Bestiary (Wild Women: These petty goddesses rule the wilderness, roaming across hills and valleys. As they go, they dance in wild ecstatic celebration, giving blessings to those that please them and withholding their blessings from those that displease them.)

Since the Lady of the Wild is Odayla's mom, presumably she is known in the Bear-worshiping parts of Peloria?

Edited May 20, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also, "Velhara" is the Lady of the Wild among the Heortlings, which strongly suggests that there's a non-Heortling Lady of the Wild, only not under that name (explicitly among the Grazers, for instance). So while there may be no Velhara in Balazar, the Lady of the Wild might still be present under a different name.

 

Yes maybe a mistake in my post (not in my mind) Velhara is a name, but the goddess behind could be named differently in other regions

[jajagappa]

33 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

So while there may be no Velhara in Balazar, the Lady of the Wild might still be present under a different name.

Rigtaina the hunting nymph (wife of Balazar and daughter to Foundchild) - she's briefly mentioned in Griffin Mtn p.15.