Which Son of the Sun do the Ostrich People Worship?

[Darius West]

So here's a question that has been much on my mind of late.  What version of Yelmalio do the Ostrich tribe of Prax worship?  There are obviously umpteen versions of Yelmalio, each with a different name and regional history, but what version  do the Ostrich people follow?  What do they call their Yelmalio?  Obviously their version is nothing like the version followed in Sun County, as the pygmies haven't chosen to mass ranks of hoplites, but will more likely follow an Ostrich-Kuschile version of the god, more in keeping with their needs and traditions.  Thoughts? 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Darius West

[soltakss]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

So here's a question that has been much on my mind of late.  What version of Yelmalio do the Ostrich tribe of Prax worship?  There are obviously umpteen versions of Yelmalio, but what version  do the Ostrich people follow?

In my Glorantha they follow Yelmalio the Rider.

 

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

What do they call their Yelmalio?

Yelmalio.

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

Obviously their version is nothing like the version followed in Sun County, as the pygmies haven't chosen to mass ranks of hoplites, but will more likely follow an Ostrich-Kuschile version of the god, more in keeping with their needs and traditions.  Thoughts? 

I agree.

 

[David Scott]

On 6/28/2022 at 1:02 PM, Darius West said:

So here's a question that has been much on my mind of late.  What version of Yelmalio do the Ostrich tribe of Prax worship?  There are obviously umpteen versions of Yelmalio, but what version  do the Ostrich people follow?  What do they call their Yelmalio?  Obviously their version is nothing like the version followed in Sun County, as the pygmies haven't chosen to mass ranks of hoplites, but will more likely follow an Ostrich-Kuschile version of the god, more in keeping with their needs and traditions.  Thoughts?

They follow the same Yelmalio that all Praxian Animal nomads follow. Just use the Yelmalio cult in the Core Rules. Obviously as they are mounted, don't choose Pike as a cult skill, so they don't learn the combined pike and shield. Everything else works just the same. If you want to be an Ostrich Tribe warrior, you'd choose:

• Homeland Base Passions (page 27)
• Choosing Your Elemental Runes (45), I use Earth +10% (Ostrich Mother's mother is the Earth)
• Homeland Characteristic Modifiers (page 53), just use Impala Riders as they are also pygmies.
• Homeland Cultural Skill Bonuses (page 60) doesn't include Ostrich riders, but these are the same for all Praxians:
• Ride (Ostrich) +35% Customs (Ostrich Tribe) (25) Herd +30% Peaceful Cut +15% Spirit Combat +20%, Dagger +05% (as Impala) then it's down to weapons (4 slots): Boomerang +20% (From HQG), Blowpipe +10% (from Khan of Khans), Short sword +10% (seemed a sensible pick like impalas), Small Shield +10% (from the Nomad Gods Counter).
• Occupation: Light Cavalry (page 73). For Light Cavalry I usually choose Composite Bow, 1H Weapon (pick type) - Pick Long Spear, Small Shield. Note that 1 H Long spear covers Lance too.
• Cult: Yelmalio (page 308). Cult Skills: Battle, Bow, Celestial Lore, Cult Lore (Yelmalio), Listen, Long Spear, Pike, Scan, Search, Speak (Firespeech), Worship (Yelmalio).

There's no problem with becoming a Rune Lord as A candidate must have 90% in Bow or Javelin, Scan, and any Spear skill, plus 90% in two of the following abilities: Battle, Honor, Listen, Move Quietly, or Search.

Note that in upcoming Cults of Glorantha, the Cult Starting Skill, Sing +10%, becomes Sing +10% or Ride (horse) +10%. In this case just change to Ride (ostrich) +10%.

The only real change from normal Ostrich riders and Yelmalion Ostrich riders, is that they don't usually use boomerangs and blowpipes, which of course make them slightly odd to other Ostrich riders. However I suspect that most would keep them as secondary weapons.

In my Prax the Praxians have no Rune Priests, only Rune Lords (Light Khans). There's only about 90 Ostrich Yelmalions and a single Light Khan. As with all Praxian Yemalions, they hold the Sun domes sacred.

A long time ago I ran a Yelmalion campaign, made up of Sun Dome Sartar (RQ2 cult write up), Sun County (RQ3 write ups), Ostrich folk Yelmalions (Heroes v2 #01). There are slight differences in the write ups that made for excellent gaming fun.

 

[Darius West]

18 hours ago, David Scott said:

They follow the same Yelmalio that all Praxian Animal nomads follow. Just use the Yelmalio cult in the Core Rules.

So who converted the Ostriches to Yelmalio ?  Remember that Yelmalio is a relatively recent advent in Dragon Pass, brought in by Monrogh to supplant Elmal, and thus break the subservience of Dragon Pass solar worshipers to the Orlanth Pantheon.  The so-called Yelmalios of Mo Baustra (Sun County) actually follow Tharkantus, and likely only started calling their deity Yelmalio due to the need to legitimize themselves with the Lunars.  The Aldryami by comparison worship the Light in the Hills, not Yelmalio, and the Balazarings follow Balazar.  Yes, these deities may be Sons of the Sun, and they may have the similar mechanics to Yelmalio, but to say they are the same deity is God Learnerism.  Just because two deities seem to have similar powers and a similar mythology doesn't mean they are the same deity.  If you go down that line of reasoning you will wind up with the Goddess-Swap experiment, and subsequent catastrophes.

[Darius West]

On 6/29/2022 at 2:40 AM, soltakss said:

In my Glorantha they follow Yelmalio the Rider

But the Ostrich riders have been in Prax since before "Yelmalio" historically came into the region.  What do they call this deity?  Remember that Yelmalio is only called Yelmalio after Monrogh forms the cult from Elmal worshippers in 1565 after the recovery of the Antesmia statue imsmc.  It is thus extremely unlikely that the Ostrich riders call their light deity Yelmalio.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Darius West

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

 Remember that Yelmalio is only called Yelmalio after Monrogh forms the cult from Elmal worshippers in 1565 after the recovery of the Antesmia statue imsmc.  It is thus extremely unlikely that the Ostrich riders call their light deity Yelmalio.

Yelmalio has been in Prax since the Imperial Age.  The Ostrich Riders probably only worshipped minor light spirits to compensate for lost Yamsur until Yelmalio came along.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

So who converted the Ostriches to Yelmalio ?  Remember that Yelmalio is a relatively recent advent in Dragon Pass, brought in by Monrogh to supplant Elmal, and thus break the subservience of Dragon Pass solar worshipers to the Orlanth Pantheon.  The so-called Yelmalios of Mo Baustra (Sun County) actually follow Tharkantus, and likely only started calling their deity Yelmalio due to the need to legitimize themselves with the Lunars.  The Aldryami by comparison worship the Light in the Hills, not Yelmalio, and the Balazarings follow Balazar.  Yes, these deities may be Sons of the Sun, and they may have the similar mechanics to Yelmalio, but to say they are the same deity is God Learnerism.  Just because two deities seem to have similar powers and a similar mythology doesn't mean they are the same deity.  If you go down that line of reasoning you will wind up with the Goddess-Swap experiment, and subsequent catastrophes.

The Praxians worship Yelmalio the Sun Daughter, nowadays the bearded Sun Daughter. In a recent game I had my mixed group of wannabe Pavis Royal Guard player characters visit the Paps after they had an unscheduled trip into the Eiritha Hills and the veins of the Goddess, and afterwards getting a VIP tour of the Paps where the staunch Yelmalio impala rider saw ancient depictions of his deity in a clearly female form.

"Yes, that's your deity, never mind such minor details. Just don't tell the Sun Domers..."

The deities were merged in the Dawn Age, when Palangio the Iron Vrok (not that he had that name before his conquest of Slontos) ruled as governor over the Orlanthi culture south of the lowlands and Lokamayadon's home territory. Despite the Covenant the Praxian pastoralists were not that different from the other storm worshippers west of them.

The Theyalans had started this "your god may have a different name than mine, but if you look at these shared parts of their experience, we can say that you know a side of him we didn't know before, and we know a side of her you didn't know before. When we bundle our worship, the full glory of our deity will be easier to reach." That happened in the Dawn Age, before the very idea of the God Learners even was born.

The Theyalan syncretism was quite fruitful, although it reduced numerous separate identities to "accents" of Orlanthi culture - especially in Ralios and Fronela where Hykimi groups joined the pastoralist and farming ways of the Second Council, weakening the Serpent Brotherhood and its successor efforts to unify the Hykimi. If there were any world-shattering mistakes made by the Second Council other than awakening the Pseudo-Cosmic Egg to hatch Nysalor, those problems lingered unresolved until the God Learners started to tamper with these. On the whole, the Theyalan period was seen as spreading civilization where none or only a limited form had been taken up again since the Darkness. Even groups that emerged from the Darkness with a semblance of civilization like the Enerali, the Enjoreli or the re-settled eastern Seshnelan Pendali of the Upper Tanier Valley joined the Council even before it broke and adopted their ways, creating the "Barbarian" Belt.

 

That said, it isn't clear to me when exactly the ostrich riders came into contact with the Paps (again). I vaguely remember to have seen maps of the Greater Darkness or Gray Age Wastes which had the Ostrich riders living just outside of Teshnos, north of the Deri peninsula. Most of the Wastes were unexplored territory, unvisited by the Animal nomads since before Earthfall (which they - or at least the ancestors of the extant tribes - did not participate in). The Ostrich folk may have had knowledge of Eiritha being buried before the visit of Nontraya, considerably delayed after the slaying of Yelm Emperor but before the arrival of Wakboth's horde in the Garden after being rebutted by the Unity Battle.

There seems to be a general agreement that Sun Daughter is a different spirit/deity from Yamsur, who did participate in the Battle of Earthfall and has been dead to Godtime since then, much like Seolinthur, but both evaded total oblivion and being forgotten and their existence excised from (what remains of) Godtime.

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

So who converted the Ostriches to Yelmalio ?  Remember that Yelmalio is a relatively recent advent in Dragon Pass, brought in by Monrogh to supplant Elmal, and thus break the subservience of Dragon Pass solar worshipers to the Orlanth Pantheon.  The so-called Yelmalios of Mo Baustra (Sun County) actually follow Tharkantus, and likely only started calling their deity Yelmalio due to the need to legitimize themselves with the Lunars.  The Aldryami by comparison worship the Light in the Hills, not Yelmalio, and the Balazarings follow Balazar.  Yes, these deities may be Sons of the Sun, and they may have the similar mechanics to Yelmalio, but to say they are the same deity is God Learnerism.  Just because two deities seem to have similar powers and a similar mythology doesn't mean they are the same deity.  If you go down that line of reasoning you will wind up with the Goddess-Swap experiment, and subsequent catastrophes.

This an updated version of some posts I wrote here: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/4141-prax-and-the-thousand-questions-about-the-place/page/4/#comment-76905

Quote

Before Yelmalio came to Prax the nomads followed Golden Daughter. Is she still worshipped?

Makes sense that nomads would have female followers.

The simple answer is yes, Praxians call her Sun Daughter (as per the Guide). The key society here is the inter-tribal Sky Gazers society. Although they can see the spirits in the night sky, they can only contact those who came down to the Wastes in the Great Darkness and helped. This is where the fun starts - did sky being x come down in the Great Darkness? Well if you manage to contact them - they did. There is some evidence of Yelmalio / Sun Daughter doing this. So there will be some initiates who manage to receive magic from her. As with all minor sky beings, it's normally only a single magic. Beware Drastic Prax is not correct - it's Lightfore/Sun Daughter/Yelmalio and Ourania/Yelorna.

One of the themes of the spirit societies of the Praxian tradition is that of splintering. By default spirit societies are controlled by charismatic shaman who can head more than one spirit society. If a shaman contacts a spirit and has a new revelation or is exposed to a new experience like a foreign cult's spirits or gods they can propagate these new revelations through their followers. If these new ways of working continue after the shamans death, a new society can form. Shamanism is a practical set of tools, what they have experienced has to work for others or it's not of any use. This is how many Praxian societies formed.

In the case of Yelmalio, the Sky Gazers spirit society already knew about the existence of Sun Daughter. Some initiates were able to spirit magic from Sun Daughter so there was a connection. It's likely that a shaman had already experienced that Sun Daughter had come to the Garden in the Great Darkness (and saw Yamsur's death IIRC). But that was a minor event and not as great as the other star beings' work, but it set the stage for when Yelmalio arrived in the Second Age:

Quote

There were several skirmishes with Sable and Impala clans as the land they settled was part of their migration paths to the Paps. The long spears and shield cover of the Sun Domers effectively stopped the charges and hail of arrows from the mounted Praxians. Likewise the skirmishing tactics of the Praxians stopped the advance of the Sun Dome infantry. Neither side did much damage to the other. Within ten years the Praxians and Sun Domers had settled into the usual pattern for the region and were trading food and weapons to each other.

and then

Quote

Once the temple was built, some Sable and Impala riders realised that the Sun Domers god was one of their own spirits, Sun Daughter, with a different name - Yelmalio. Praxians from the Sky Gazers cult began to learn magics and new archery skills from the invaders, and so the Yelmalio cult took hold amongst the tribes. The nomadic ways of the Praxians were the antithesis of the civilized Sun Domers. But the settlers could not deny their connection. This strange spread of their cult protected the Sun Domers from the wrath of the tribes. Waha himself spoke out for Yelmalio "Sky spirit, newcomer to our land, keep your warriors safe as your brothers and sisters did in the Great Darkness”.

This an updated version of a post I wrote here: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/4141-prax-and-the-thousand-questions-about-the-place/page/4/#comment-76946

There are also two important sky based holy spots in the Wastes:

• Star Crystal Mountain: This place is where Pole Star fought the Chaos gods Tien and Thed. The divine blood spilled here attracts both spirits and Chaos demons.
• Polestar Mountain: This high peak is the Sky Spot, where Pole Star taught the Stargazers the secrets of the Celestial Realm. The Pentans believe this to be a remnant of the Pillar and that Pole Star is directly above this mountain.

These are often identified with other sky gods, and Star Crystal Mountain may have been Yamsur's palace. But you'd need to visit them in person to see who you may meet.

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

The Aldryami by comparison worship the Light in the Hills, not Yelmalio, and the Balazarings follow Balazar.  Yes, these deities may be Sons of the Sun, and they may have the similar mechanics to Yelmalio, but to say they are the same deity is God Learnerism.  Just because two deities seem to have similar powers and a similar mythology doesn't mean they are the same deity.  If you go down that line of reasoning you will wind up with the Goddess-Swap experiment, and subsequent catastrophes.

“The God Learners found connections between deities that were unknown to the stories. But those connections worked and enabled them to do amazing things. In short, the God Learners didn’t squeeze those myths into their own “truth” – rather they carefully studied countless myths, experienced them, and then found new connections previously unknown.

The God Learners downfall did not come because their approach was in error, but because they themselves grew proud and arrogant, and viewed the cosmos as something to be exploited to their benefit.”

-Jeff

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/god-learner-divine-genealogies-i/

[soltakss]

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

So who converted the Ostriches to Yelmalio ?

Yelmalio, when he visited Prax. Or Yamsur the Splendid. Maybe they worshipped Yamsur then switched to Yelmalio. I don't know, it was a long time ago.

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

Remember that Yelmalio is a relatively recent advent in Dragon Pass, brought in by Monrogh to supplant Elmal, and thus break the subservience of Dragon Pass solar worshipers to the Orlanth Pantheon.  The so-called Yelmalios of Mo Baustra (Sun County) actually follow Tharkantus, and likely only started calling their deity Yelmalio due to the need to legitimize themselves with the Lunars. 

If you like.

I see Yelmalio as having been brought to Prax to assist Joraz Kyrem, when he HeroQuested to Dragon pass for allies against the Praxians. I don't see any reason to say they worshipped Tharkantus or any other name, except when using that as a pseudonym for Yelmalio.

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

The Aldryami by comparison worship the Light in the Hills, not Yelmalio, and the Balazarings follow Balazar.  Yes, these deities may be Sons of the Sun, and they may have the similar mechanics to Yelmalio, but to say they are the same deity is God Learnerism.  Just because two deities seem to have similar powers and a similar mythology doesn't mean they are the same deity.  If you go down that line of reasoning you will wind up with the Goddess-Swap experiment, and subsequent catastrophes.

If you like.

I have no problem with Elves worshipping Yelmalio the Forest Sun and the people of Balazar worshipping Yelmalio,.

In fact, giving them all different names for no reason except to make them different, is tiring for me.

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

But the Ostrich riders have been in Prax since before "Yelmalio" historically came into the region. 

The Sun Domers of Sun County came to Prax during the Second Age.

The Ostrich Riders were in Prax long before that and worshipped Yelmalio the Rider, who had come to Prax during God Time. They believe that Yelmalio used to ride birds, then switched to horses later on. Who is to say they are wrong?

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

What do they call this deity?

Yelmalio the Rider.

They recognise that it is the same deity as worshipped by the Sun Domers. They just know that the Sun Domers don't worship him properly. They don't ride ostriches, for a start.

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

Remember that Yelmalio is only called Yelmalio after Monrogh forms the cult from Elmal worshippers in 1565 after the recovery of the Antesmia statue imsmc.

That is a matter of opinion.

Monrogh declared that the Little Suns were Yelmalio, or some such nonsense, and everyone believed him. 

There are lots of holdouts that don't believe that, of course.

In my opinion, the Sun Domers worshipped Yelmalio before Monrogh, he just used a trick to show that a lot of cults were part of the same whole.

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

It is thus extremely unlikely that the Ostrich riders call their light deity Yelmalio.

If you like.

Personally, I think that Yelmalio has been known to the Sun Domers for centuries and they called him by the name Yelmalio. 

The Ostrich Riders have had contact with the Sun Domers for centuries and recognised that the two cults were the same, long before Monrogh's revelation.

 

[Darius West]

11 hours ago, soltakss said:

I see Yelmalio as having been brought to Prax to assist Joraz Kyrem, when he HeroQuested to Dragon pass for allies against the Praxians. I don't see any reason to say they worshipped Tharkantus or any other name, except when using that as a pseudonym for Yelmalio.

Dig a bit deeper.  Tharkantus is the name the people of Mo Baustra give their deity, not Yelmalio.  Tharkantus is a Second Age subcult of Yelmalio, much like Balazar.

[Darius West]

11 hours ago, soltakss said:

In fact, giving them all different names for no reason except to make them different, is tiring for me.

That's how the God Learners get you.  Theirs is the reductionist and lazy way.  Maize Goddess A=Maize Goddess B, except it just ain't quite so.

[Darius West]

21 hours ago, metcalph said:

Yelmalio has been in Prax since the Imperial Age.  The Ostrich Riders probably only worshipped minor light spirits to compensate for lost Yamsur until Yelmalio came along.

I have since done some more looking into the origins of the Ostrich Riders and the info comes up with the Ratite Empire and the Riskesting Empire (we don't quite know if they were the same thing, or perhaps dynasties of the same Rinliddi affiliated avilry empire), and the god Veng, aka Ghevengus who is Row 1 Image 10 (Star 15) on the God's Wall near Raibanth.

Given that the Riskesting Empire is pre-Time (existing in the Storm Age), and the fact we know the Ostrich Tribe have lived in Prax as Praxians since the beginning of Time, they are likely to have arrived as refugees like so many others and been rolled into the Praxian culture.

I don't debate that Yamsur may well have been the original Ostrich war deity, but we just don't know.

Another point that interests me is that the Pure Horse Tribe likely had dealings with the Ostriches, and we know the Pure Horse "Yelmalio" is called Jardan  and like all the other Yelmalios is god of the Yellow Planet.  I find the idea that we had the Mo Baustrans worshipping Tharkantus, the Pure Horse worshiping Jardan, and the Ostriches worshiping "someone" to be amusing, while the Praxians call the Yellow Planet "Sun Daughter".  The same deity, likely known by 4 different names in 2nd Age Prax not to mention that Pavis had dealings with the Teshnans who may well call Yelmalio "Somash" at the same time.

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

Dig a bit deeper.  Tharkantus is the name the people of Mo Baustra give their deity, not Yelmalio.  Tharkantus is a Second Age subcult of Yelmalio, much like Balazar.

Tharkantus is one of the many titles the Zola Fel Sun Domers give to their deity. Yelmalio is another one, as is Little Sun or Cold Sun. Not sure whether Lightfore is on the list of titles, or Yamsur (the portion that did not die at Earthfall).

Hostile outsiders possibly use "that bloody Sun Dome deity" rather than "Yelmalio".

Gods go by many titles, kennings and names. Some of these are localized.

[soltakss]

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

Tharkantus is a Second Age subcult of Yelmalio, much like Balazar.

So, they worshipped Yelmalio and Tharkantus, if he was a Sub-Cult of Yelmalio.

[svensson]

I'm telling you guys, it's Big Bird.

Trust me. I know stuff.... 😆🤣

[Ian A. Thomson]

On 7/2/2022 at 4:19 AM, soltakss said:

The Ostrich Riders were in Prax long before that and worshipped Yelmalio the Rider, who had come to Prax during God Time. They believe that Yelmalio used to ride birds, then switched to horses later on. Who is to say they are wrong?

Yelmalio the Rider.

They recognise that it is the same deity as worshipped by the Sun Domers. They just know that the Sun Domers don't worship him properly. They don't ride ostriches, for a start.

I love it

Would you have the time to write-up a sufficiently detailed short-form RQG version of the Ostrich Rider cult of Yelmalio?

I'd love to include it in the second volume of the P&BRC Directors Cut series

[Darius West]

10 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, they worshipped Yelmalio and Tharkantus, if he was a Sub-Cult of Yelmalio.

Not quite.  They worship Tharkantus as Yelmalio, in the same way that the cult of Balazar is the worship of Balazar as Yelmalio.  Yelmalio seems to have as many masks as Nyarlathotep, so many in fact that I am beginning to wonder if those chaos rumors aren't true.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Darius West

[Darius West]

On 7/2/2022 at 4:00 AM, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

“The God Learners found connections between deities that were unknown to the stories. But those connections worked and enabled them to do amazing things. In short, the God Learners didn’t squeeze those myths into their own “truth” – rather they carefully studied countless myths, experienced them, and then found new connections previously unknown.

The God Learners downfall did not come because their approach was in error, but because they themselves grew proud and arrogant, and viewed the cosmos as something to be exploited to their benefit.”

-Jeff

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/god-learner-divine-genealogies-i/

Now go and read about the Great Goddess Switch where the God Learners took 2 maize goddesses and interchanged their worship, believing them to be the same deity, but it turns out that while that was sort of true, it was also very false.  You can call experimentation arrogance, but how can you know if a principle is true unless you test it?  As to exploiting the world to one's own benefit, that includes literally every culture ever in Glorantha and Earth.  For example, would we even consider conservation or ecology as ideas if we weren't aware that these models of sustainability weren't to our long term benefit?  Would other cultures who try to maintain some notion of not over-using their resources do so if they didn't understand these acts were not to their benefit?  I strongly doubt it.  Cultures inevitably exploit the cosmos they find themselves in, and they have no choice but to do so.  This is however a long way off the point of the topic of what Ostrich Riders call their mask of Yelmalio.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Darius West

[D]

the Masks of Yemalio sounds like its a JC book waiting to be written

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, Ian Thomson said:

Would you have the time to write-up a sufficiently detailed short-form RQG version of the Ostrich Rider cult of Yelmalio?

I'd love to include it in the second volume of the P&BRC Directors Cut series

Sure, let me know when you need it by.

I am working on a few things at the moment, but can start on this in a few weeks, or maybe in August.

[Ian A. Thomson]

7 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Sure, let me know when you need it by.

I am working on a few things at the moment, but can start on this in a few weeks, or maybe in August.

Wonderful! Basically as soon as you are able, as it can be available as a PC cult option. Vol. 01 is still on track for (late) July, so Vol 02 would be out in Oct most likely and it would fit just as well into that one

Edited July 3, 2022 by Ian Thomson

[radmonger]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

Now go and read about the Great Goddess Switch where the God Learners took 2 maize goddesses and interchanged their worship, believing them to be the same deity, but it turns out that while that was sort of true, it was also very false.

 

Just as Orlanthi use the word 'all' to mean 85%, they use the word 'same' to mean 'mostly the same'. Anything connected and deeply similar will do.

As I understand it, two gods being the 'same' at the RQ rules level means only:

- if  you can participate in worship ceremonies of the second god, then you can regain RP you learnt in the first. This can come be being a lay member, guest, or even ritual enemy/sacrifice. The latter tends to led to particularly dramatic outcomes. It's possible that's how the ostrich riders first learnt that  Yelmalio was a mask of their god.

- if you are accepted as an initiate in both cults (which almost certainly requires passing the initiation test twice, unless the cults have a formal arrangement), then spells learnt at one can be cast using RP gained at another. Second Sight reveals that you have a single RP pool for the both masks of the god, not two pools. 

For two gods that are not the same, neither is true. But those are individual-level effects. The results of whole societies converting, or otherwise changing the masks they worship,  are different.

Someone having a single Rune Pool full of spells that can only have been gained by initiation into two cults is generally considered as the gold standard of divine identity. Anything less is a rumor about 'one time my brother-in-laws cousin' . If you are  such an individual, you can go around and share your divine revelation at ceremonies and festivals where Second Sight is widely available. Few will reject the evidence of their own magical vision, though the skeptical will suspect there are ways of faking even that.

If it merely gets accepted that God X in some distant land is the same as our local god, this has few affects. Every so often,  an ambitious hero candidate will set off to Teshnos to learn the secrets of Somash. They may even come back.

But if the new divine revelation coincides with, or triggers, a political upheaval, then that's different. The local temples will switch to the new name, teach the new secrets. The reformed cult has the same core identity, same runes, and initiates keep the same Rune Pool. But it has new and different myths, and so associated gods. The old shrines are destroyed or neglected, new ones dedicated. Even if it didn't have that direct magical effect, you still get all the social and cultural effects religious conversion causes in the real world, ala _Things Fall Apart_.

Note the failures of the goddess switch, which was the opposite of such conversion, magically swapping gods out without telling anyone. Even so, each wrong goddess functioned successfully in their core identity. It was their relationships with the local husband, land and crop deities that were no longer valid. Probably no-one told the locals to update the shrines, so they stopped working.

 

 

 

+

 

[Darius West]

15 hours ago, radmonger said:

Just as Orlanthi use the word 'all' to mean 85%, they use the word 'same' to mean 'mostly the same'. Anything connected and deeply similar will do.

As I understand it, two gods being the 'same' at the RQ rules level means only:

- if  you can participate in worship ceremonies of the second god, then you can regain RP you learnt in the first. This can come be being a lay member, guest, or even ritual enemy/sacrifice. The latter tends to led to particularly dramatic outcomes. 

- if you are accepted as an initiate in both cults (which almost certainly requires passing the initiation test twice, unless the cults have a formal arrangement), then spells learnt at one can be cast using RP gained at another. Second Sight reveals that you have a single RP pool for the both masks of the god, not two pools. 

For two gods that are not the same, neither is true. But those are individual-level effects. The results of whole societies converting, or otherwise changing the masks they worship,  are different.

In broad strokes I agree with what you are saying.  There are problems though.  Specifically there is the issue of politics, because in Far Point the Elmal/Yelmalio fight has become a rallying point for the resistance to support their Elmal cult and their culture against Lunar Yelmalio imperialism.  Also, if you worship Yelmalio even once your fire powers "drop off" according to Far Pointers, which is why the Elmali call him Yu-Nuk the None-sun. 

Again politically there is the issue of seniority.  Will Sun Domers be prepared to bend the knee in an Ostrich Little Sun ceremony?  Will Teshnan Somash followers be happy to let Sun Domers tell them that their Teshnan robes are effeminate and break the Tharkantus teaching against dressing as a woman?  There is no Pope of Yelmalio; no central authority to establish a pecking order, and this leads to slights, real and imagined, which evolve into disputes and become the focus for the human (sentient?) propensity to indulge in the narcissism of small differences.  This is what made Monrogh so important; he was a unifying factor amongst the disparate "Little Sun" cults that otherwise would never have recognized that they followed the same deity.  This is why Monrogh was a hero.  Only a hero could manage something like that.

Of course the other issue is that of subcults and associated cults.  Regional deities will have attachments that other "Little Suns" do not.  For example, Elmali hold that Elmal gets the spell Cats Eye from his association with Yinkin who taught him how to hunt in the dark, and that Yelmalio only has the spell because of the prior association with Elmal.  Similarly, you could hardly argue that Elmali have any association with the Praxian Unicorn rider star goddess Yelorna, but the Tharkantus followers of Mo Baustra most certainly will.  Then there is the issue that Elmal never fought on the Hill of Gold and thus never lost his fire, while Yelmalio certainly did. 

Regions matter in Glorantha, and there is a reason why.  Glorantha has an interesting issue with time, because Glorantha was once not subject to time.  Now we know that Time and Space are inextricably linked, and if you remove Time you only have Space.  This means that the maximum extent of a deity's mythic reach has a geographic boundary, wherein all their myths happened effectively simultaneously and without a system of temporal causality being imposed on them.  Now, the God Learners likely understood this and were thus able to manipulate myths, likely using a system of matrix equations that allowed them to map the God Plane's acausal nature.  Now the God Learners did a lot of unifying of disparate deities into single myth systems and thus single deities, but local variations still exist.  This may lead to situations where a particular clan gains access to a hero quest for a deity that other clans don't possess because of their location.  This also means that their version of the deity is slightly different to that of other peoples'.  What isn't clear is at what point your local deity is sufficiently different that it is no longer the same deity.  

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

On 7/2/2022 at 9:36 PM, Darius West said:

Now go and read about the Great Goddess Switch where the God Learners took 2 maize goddesses and interchanged their worship, believing them to be the same deity, but it turns out that while that was sort of true, it was also very false.  You can call experimentation arrogance, but how can you know if a principle is true unless you test it?  

But there is a more fundamental test which is going into the godsworld and trying to identify the two gods together. That is how they made grandfather mortal and the rest of their composite deities: identification. The issue is that when their models were incorrect in regards to the two earth goddesses they refused to revise their models. The great sin of the godlearners was not the act of making models, it was refusing to revise their models when confronted with conflicting evidence.