Sun Wheel Ruin

[Erol of Backford]

On 7/1/2023 at 7:03 AM, jajagappa said:

The Gold Wheel Dancers are connected to the Fire Rune, as is the Sun.

The Guide p.189 notes: "This mysterious race, known variously as the Gold Wheel Dancers, Sun Wheel Dancers, Silver People, or the Yardoni, was a remnant of the Gods Age that survived the Great Darkness. They were demigods, variously described as a golden circle, a flaming wheel, or a silver dancer surrounded by a fiery golden halo."

So Spinning Wheel is alive again, wishing to generate stats for her (I am saying they are females and would be similar to Dryads) of course they are connected to Fire Rune, as is the Sun.

Was thinking by using magic points they could form set fire but thinking there should be some other things going on...

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

there should be some other things going on...

Whenever you mention the Gold Wheel Dancers, I think of the Thoth tarot.

And there is always Charles the Inkling with his golden dancing Major Arcana. It is the sort of thing that can be as bonkers as you want it to be … not that it necessarily should be completely gonzo.

[Erol of Backford]

I'll check out Charlie Williams' works, have not heard of him.

16 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

It is the sort of thing that can be as bonkers as you want it to be …

I suppose it's true but know if that happens they'll end up being very powerful. Thinking the Gold Wheel Dancer would become more powerful or reveal other abilities as a PC companion grows their own powers?

It'll take some time to develop as each Gold Wheel Dancer would have some general racial powers and other skills they developed that may also be magical or not...

 

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So Spinning Wheel is alive again, wishing to generate stats for her (I am saying they are females and would be similar to Dryads) of course they are connected to Fire Rune, as is the Sun.

Was thinking by using magic points they could form set fire but thinking there should be some other things going on...

They are beings of Fire, Movement, and Harmony. They have ability to transform their shape - that seems innate, much like a dryad can materialize a body. Their fires seem on the order of Gustbran's level - they are controlled, not Oakfed's wildfires. More light than heat? That seems likelier. 

They are likely human-sized. Clearly a high DEX. They seem very intelligent and highly magical.

You might go through the Cradle scenario and see what else Pinchining does. Pinchining is not an offensive, attacking figure. Seems to animate Cradle defenses through dance.

[mfbrandi]

14 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I'll check out Charlie Williams' works, have not heard of him.

Depends on your tolerance for Christian fantasists — with “attitudes of the time” as we say — so don’t consider the mention as an unqualified recommendation, but I dare say Greg was aware of him and his dancing gold figures. @scott-martin is a better source of information than I will ever be.

CW was an influence on M. John Harrison, apparently.

Edited November 6, 2023 by mfbrandi
fonts

[mfbrandi]

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

beings of Fire, Movement, and Harmony … animate Cradle defenses through dance

• I danced in the morning when the world was young
  I danced in the moon and the stars and the sun
  — Sydney Carter (to the tune of “Simple Gifts”)

SC bridges any gap between CW’s dancer and another.

How do the Mostali feel about a dwarf symbolising spritual ignorance? Williams, the Golden Dawn et al, and Shiva (the dreadlocked mystic) all seem to point in one direction, and the RG dances like that, too. I like to think the Arkat–Nysalor showdown was a dance-off.

[scott-martin]

17 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

And there is always Charles the Inkling with his golden dancing Major Arcana. It is the sort of thing that can be as bonkers as you want it to be … not that it necessarily should be completely gonzo.

Top insight of the season. Between this and jajagappa's long prayer to the golden trumpet and friends, an interesting obstacle elsewhere is overcome.

Has anyone ever explored Pinchining's journey from Urggh's critical success to the Cradle? Probably an interesting lost chapter there for those who obsess over these things. At some point the dancer hooks up with Gonn Orta.

[Joerg]

31 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Has anyone ever explored Pinchining's journey from Urggh's critical success to the Cradle? Probably an interesting lost chapter there for those who obsess over these things. At some point the dancer hooks up with Gonn Orta.

All I have seen or heard is the story about the critical success at Urrgh's worship awakening Pinchining, the awakened Sun Wheel Dancer making an appearance, probably blessing Urrgh, and then departing.

Urrrgh then dies at some point, and it seems his soul goes to Pinchining, possibly burdening the GWD.

Argrath earns Gonn Orta's friendship through the Giant Drinking Cauldron quest, which seems to be tied to Falangian Diamonds being turned into Falangian Wine. Him being a kinsman of Urrrgh might gain him contact with Pinchining, and it may have been Argrath who made Gonn Orta's offspring possible.

The giant cradles look like they were crafted like regular ships, but apparently from the living wood of Nemalayope's (Redwood?) tree. The sow and her piglings could be Godtime denizens summoned to serve the infant, and to some extent this goes for Pinchining as well.

The crafters may have been lesser giants, or the crafting may have happened on the Other Side. Or maybe Falangian Wine enabled Gonn Orta to manifest a smaller incatrnation with more nimble hands to do the crafting himself. And Pinchining appears to play a role beyond acting as the wyter of the ship.

[jajagappa]

13 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Argrath earns Gonn Orta's friendship through the Giant Drinking Cauldron quest, which seems to be tied to Falangian Diamonds being turned into Falangian Wine. Him being a kinsman of Urrrgh might gain him contact with Pinchining, and it may have been Argrath who made Gonn Orta's offspring possible.

The Drinking Giant's Cauldron has an interesting connection to the 11 Lights - you may recall that the questers there have the opportunity to resurrect the dead stars, but the stars are found in the cauldron.

Did Argrath perhaps recover Pinchining out of the cauldron (a coin that he fishes out but now infused with Pinchining's soul)? It's an interesting "resurrection" quest then, but with a mortal soul vs. that of a god. And the resurrection of the GWD, as elements of Fire/Light, might naturally follow the resurrection of the Sun where Orlanth led the way out to the Dawn Gates. (But if Argrath followed that path then to help return the GWD, then he'd already know that part of the LBQ before his future venture.) Once back in the world of mortals, Argrath and the GWD might reappear in Gonn Orta's hoard of gold and offer a way for Gonn Orta to build the new cradle.

[scott-martin]

22 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The Drinking Giant's Cauldron has an interesting connection to the 11 Lights - you may recall that the questers there have the opportunity to resurrect the dead stars, but the stars are found in the cauldron.

Still a lot we don't know about the 1616-5 window. A lot of hidden machinations taking us from there to here.

[Joerg]

15 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The Drinking Giant's Cauldron has an interesting connection to the 11 Lights - you may recall that the questers there have the opportunity to resurrect the dead stars, but the stars are found in the cauldron.

The Eleven Lights quest takes off only after Argrath did his cauldron quest, and during his absence (although only after he completed the Circumnavigation?). More relevant to Gonn Orta is Kallyr's boat planet quest which unites his (cauldron-sired?) daughter with the Sky World, possibly making the discovery of the stars in the cauldron feasible. Or if it isn't the giantess, maybe it is Pinchining's presence which unlocks entry to the Cauldron in the Sky.

 

There is also Argrath's emergency quest to return Pinchining to the Cradle. Argrath seems to have a good idea what happened to the GWD and where to look for them.

 

The cauldron of resurrection (one of the four treasures of Tara in Ireland, and possibly a cognate of the Holy Grail) is a trope we don't quite have in Glorantha, although that is easily remedied. The Giant's cauldron is depicted as one of those hide cauldrons that withstand the flame by sacrificing some of the water inside to evaporation. The hide might be the cloak of Night (or a piece thereof that has to be stolen as part of the quest).

26 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Did Argrath perhaps recover Pinchining out of the cauldron (a coin that he fishes out but now infused with Pinchining's soul)? It's an interesting "resurrection" quest then, but with a mortal soul vs. that of a god.

Is Pinchining still entirely a mortal soul after having accepted (and reacted to) Urrrgh's worship?

28 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

 It's an interesting "resurrection" quest then, but with a mortal soul vs. that of a god. And the resurrection of the GWD, as elements of Fire/Light, might naturally follow the resurrection of the Sun where Orlanth led the way out to the Dawn Gates.

Argrath knows ways out of Hell, and might have an ability to steal a soul.

I wonder whether the Gold Wheel Pinchining awakened from became part of his body, or whether it acts like something similar to a dragonewt egg. The Lunar magical trap separated Pinchining from the Cradle, and possibly from his coin. Does (a companion of) Argrath collect the coin before his party teleports away? Does the coin remain on board (possibly inside Urrrgh's wooden automaton)?

33 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

And the resurrection of the GWD, as elements of Fire/Light, might naturally follow the resurrection of the Sun where Orlanth led the way out to the Dawn Gates.

The Eleven Lights questers or at least their rescuees emerge from Stormgate. Hitching a planetary ride might be another way.

37 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

(But if Argrath followed that path then to help return the GWD, then he'd already know that part of the LBQ before his future venture.)

Chances are that Argrath enacted the (short) LBQ many times as Garrath Sharpsword or Argrath Dragonspear for the Orlanthi community in Pavis. But I am not at all convinced that Argrath's 1643 LBQ even touched that path, as he veered off in ASshliege's court rather than following the regular path via the Ritual of the Net.

 

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Eleven Lights quest takes off only after Argrath did his cauldron quest

I was not saying the Cauldron quest came after 11 Lights, just that it gave us a look at the Cauldron and we might imagine that during Argrath's quest, he discovers something (a golden coin, a golden disk,...) floating in the Cauldron.

 

[Joerg]

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I was not saying the Cauldron quest came after 11 Lights, just that it gave us a look at the Cauldron and we might imagine that during Argrath's quest, he discovers something (a golden coin, a golden disk,...) floating in the Cauldron.

 

I was going a step further, postulating that Argrath performing the Giant's Drinking Cauldron quest may have been the prerequisite for the Eleven Lights to succeed.

There is a possibility that the Cauldron is another Gold Wheel Dancer in item shape, or possibly it is the transformed body of Pinchining that gets returned into their spinning wheel shape by their inclusion into the Cradle ecology.

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

The cauldron of resurrection (one of the four treasures of Tara in Ireland, and possibly a cognate of the Holy Grail) is a trope we don't quite have in Glorantha

Is that right? Maybe it is. We do have the cup from which the world was poured: . If you protest that that is life, not resurrection, don’t we think Gloranthan history is on a loop from Chaos back round to Chaos und so weiter? Is Cosmos ever poured out for the first time?

JC has his graal, but note that Shiva has a goblet drum —— symbolising creation (first sound). Because of the  black spot on the drumhead — presumably of “tuning paste,” as on tabla — the damaru is when seen end on — fire being the symbol of destruction at the end of a cosmic cycle. (Shiva does have “proper” fire in a left hand, of course, but it is always nice to have the Gloranthan all-in-one economy option.)

[Erol of Backford]

On 7/24/2022 at 2:11 PM, jajagappa said:

I really do not see the Gold Wheel Dancers as sorcerers.  That's not what they are about.  They can Transform.  It's an innate magical ability (just like a nymph/dryad can discorporate).  

Reading back through this thread you had suggested a Dryad as potentially similar. I do like that for part of it...

23 hours ago, jajagappa said:

They have ability to transform their shape - that seems innate, much like a dryad can materialize a body. Their fires seem on the order of Gustbran's level - they are controlled, not Oakfed's wildfires. More light than heat? That seems likelier. 

They are likely human-sized. Clearly a high DEX. They seem very intelligent and highly magical.

You might go through the Cradle scenario and see what else Pinchining does. Pinchining is not an offensive, attacking figure. Seems to animate Cradle defenses through dance.

10 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I like to think the Arkat–Nysalor showdown was a dance-off.

Made me think of Fem-bots from Austin Powers somehow!?

I do see a slight resemblance between the figurine and the cartoon, just a slight resemblance...

  

7 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Has anyone ever explored Pinchining's journey from Urggh's critical success to the Cradle? Probably an interesting lost chapter there for those who obsess over these things. At some point the dancer hooks up with Gonn Orta.

I assumed Pinchining's actual body, in solid gold - inanimate form was in [23] Another Cave (Griffin Mountain p203) as Orta had it and was waiting for it's spirit to return before sending the child down the river... it could be Orta has a few other Gold Wheel Dancer inanimate bodies in his Cave 23, rounding out those missing or unaccounted forfrom the 10 that existed at Dawn that are still unaccounted for?

Did Urrrgh actually have the gold coin which was Spinning Wheel's body while on the Hero Quest or did he just pray to his gold and the coin reanimated with spirit in Orta's cave 23?

Spinning Wheel's spirit might have visited Urrrgh where the quest was taking place but maybe not in body just spirit.. but then again maybe the Gold Wheel Dancers are able to go between planes?

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Him being a kinsman of Urrrgh

Is there a source for Urrrgh being a relative of Argrath?

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

Argrath seems to have a good idea what happened to the GWD and where to look for them.

He might know where Spinning Wheel went but why would he know where the others were, the unaccounted ones, are they sent to a particular place when they become inanimate? if that were the case could a PC not just call for some Yelmic or Elmali divine intervention to bring their spirit back or is that something the gods cannot do or haveany power over? Maybe that god is dead now?

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

elements of Fire/Light, might naturally follow the resurrection of the Sun

So it'd be simple enough to say that a few other Gold Wheel Dancers may have come back at that time and are just lost to history until a GM decides to spring them on the PC's?

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

we might imagine that during Argrath's quest, he discovers something (a golden coin, a golden disk,...) floating in the Cauldron

Why is the Cauldron even related? The inanimate bodies of the Gold Wheel Dancers exist and wouldn't appear suddenly, though some have been transformed... we noted Speaking Wheel became the Deceiver's mouth?

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is a possibility that the Cauldron is another Gold Wheel Dancer in item shape

This is a good possibility in my mind but it wouldn't be Pinchining that is unless any of Gold Wheel Dancer spirits could have been reunited with their body when Urrrgh rolled that critical?

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Is there a source for Urrrgh being a relative of Argrath?

"rumored to be a descendant of Sartar" 

It may have been in one of the Son of Sartar issues, now available in the Stafford Campaign pdf.

 

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

He might know where Spinning Wheel went but why would he know where the others were, the unaccounted ones, are they sent to a particular place when they become inanimate?

Sorry about the confusion - I was using the indefinite plural pronoun for Pinchining.

 

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Why is the Cauldron even related?

The Cauldron is what links Argrath and Gonn Orta, and thus Argrath and the Cradle.

In the quest, Falangian Diamonds seem to tbe turned into a liquid (Falangian Wine). The diamonds may be the analogon for stars/planets.

The Eleven Lights seems to have a cauldron of stars (or planets). 

We have no idea how Gonn Orta linked up with Pinchining. Greg told me that he playtested his publications in Glorantha.The scenario Gonn Orta's Castle was left out of Griffin Island, and may have been a late addition to the original campaign. There is a chance that a party containing a duck and Urrrgh visited the castle. 

 

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

The inanimate bodies of the Gold Wheel Dancers exist and wouldn't appear suddenly, though some have been transformed... we noted Speaking Wheel became the Deceiver's mouth?

Pinchining was in wheel form when he was awakened by Urrrgh. There are no reports about a GWD roaming the land, so I wondered whether Pinchining may have turned into one after his awakening, possibly manifesting the questing object.

 

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

This is a good possibility in my mind but it wouldn't be Pinchining that is unless any of Gold Wheel Dancer spirits could have been reunited with their body when Urrrgh rolled that critical?

If there were others, the loss of Pinchining may have been resolved in a different way.

 

I wonder what other guardians the giant cradles of the Imperial Age used. The last GWD seem to have assumed artifact shape before Arkat had reached Kartolin Pass.

 

[Erol of Backford]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Stafford Campaign

I have it and will read it and the Cradle again...

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

I was using the indefinite plural pronoun for Pinchining

Lol, I was watching a Japanese comedy last night and they were using playon words... I understood 0% even I understood about 25% of what they were saying... you are amazing with being bilingual... I am jealous at a minimum!

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Falangian Diamonds

I will read up on those. IIRC the Eldar Secrets has Dwarves with lots of them, the PC's can get the Cauldron and bring a whole galaxy back to life...

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is a chance that a party containing a duck and Urrrgh visited the castle. 

The note that Orta once looked at a duck for a long very uncomfortable time, for the duck, I do recall seeing it. The idea that the House Campaign went up over High Wyrm's Pass, also now called Bagtrap's Pass as he jumped into the Bronze Dragon's mouth and died... is noted in some passages... he was a member of the Temple of the Wooden Sword so evidently some of the original PC's went north at some time.

I still think it'd be really cool to get a few of the original players on a panel at the Chaosium Con to have a QA session. Lots of interesting useless trivia could be had. Kinds of snack they ate who brought the beer and what kind... wait, no I mean why did Bagtrap jump to his death, did Pinchining's spirit actually join a gold wheel Urrrgh had in his possession? Was Redbird really almost as sleazy as Halcyon?!

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

I wonder what other guardians the giant cradles of the Imperial Age used. The last GWD seem to have assumed artifact shape before Arkat had reached Kartolin Pass.

I keep going back to these items, Tada's ladder, somebody's table, Baroshii's crib, Beat Pot's pot... if not then are they Gold Wheel Dancer inanimate bodies?

[Erol of Backford]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Eleven Lights seems to have a cauldron of stars (or planets). 

from another thread by Jaja in Eleven Lights Questions Belt 04:

The right hand side is the Cauldron of Pieces. "The Cauldron of Pieces contains chopped up pieces of gods; you need to choose from among the heads bubbling in the cauldron." So that's what you see a set of heads being stirred around.

Could some of the heads be Gold Wheel Dancers as well, why not right?

[jajagappa]

On 11/7/2023 at 5:50 PM, Erol of Backford said:

I keep going back to these items, Tada's ladder, somebody's table, Baroshii's crib, Beat Pot's pot... if not then are they Gold Wheel Dancer inanimate bodies?

They are Praxian medicine bundles. Relics of the Golden Age of Genert's Garden. Might one be a GWD (or got replaced by a GWD after the original was lost)? If it works for your game, yes. But all of them? No, think that loses a lot of the richness and variety of Glorantha. There's lots about the Green Age and Golden Age you miss out on otherwise.

[Erol of Backford]

31 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

They are Praxian medicine bundles.

I didn't know that. I looked at the game rules thinking it would have explained but after scanning them I don't see the counters... I did note the Storm Walkers seem somewhat powerful?

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

I didn't know that. I looked at the game rules thinking it would have explained but after scanning them I don't see the counters...

They're in Nomad Gods, not WBRM, p.24.

(If you don't have Nomad Gods, you can get the pdf here: Nomad Gods Rule Booklet - PDF - Chaosium Inc. )

Edited November 11, 2023 by jajagappa

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

They're in Nomad Gods, not WBRM, p.24.

Of course I do but it's in the closet up high on a shelf, never played unfortunately but I had to buy it when it came out.

I didn't look there was somehow thinking they were White Bear Red Moon counters... silly me for not thinking of that (a little sarcasm with much respect of course).

I am missing the old Wasp Nest's scenario (still trying to get someone to link a source) and a hard cover Land of Plenty otherwise am about 95% on material... still didn't pick up Edge of Empire and 2nd hard back of Ian's new stuff...

Holidays coming up!

[Erol of Backford]

Because I am thinking another Gold Wheel Dancer has surfaced, this time I noted it being listed as an ornament of good luck in Casino Town but I'll need to find it again... 

The updated list is:

01 Florencia Sillinhalia

02 Speaking Wheel

03 Pinchining - Spinning Wheel

04 Another would be with Isidilian

05 Wheel of Wheels

06 Sounder on the Skyship

07 Vithela... TotRM Issue 17

08 Golden Key (previously a Dancer)  Eric Rowe also mentioned to me that it may hold or held a secret regarding the Faceless Stone statue.

09 There was mentioned in Casino town that people rub for luck but cannot recall where I read that

10 possibly another in the East, likely with the Dragon Emperor?

If so then only one other from the Dawn is not known?

This would be a nice Dissertation for a Lhankor Mhy Sage: History of the Sun Wheel and her Dancers?

[jajagappa]

On 11/11/2023 at 3:46 PM, Erol of Backford said:

still didn't pick up Edge of Empire and 2nd hard back of Ian's new stuff...

Holidays coming up!

It's time to do so then! Edge of Empire is now on Sale, including the hardcover!

 

[Erol of Backford]

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

It's time to do so then! Edge of Empire is now on Sale, including the hardcover!

Nochet, I did order the 2nd Pavis hard cover.

Nochet is Not-yet POD... 😛