Sun Wheel Ruin

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

There is no indication that the [GWD] ever mated with other races.

Quote

Furthermore, with Florencia Sillinhalia, one of the last Gold Wheel Spirits, [Gwalynkus]  was the father of Golden Fintalen, who organized all the markets of Dorastor and the cult of Issaries too. These interspecies marriages were, by this century, generally considered impossible or, perhaps, offensive by most people.

History of the Heortling Peoples p15

 

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

with Florencia Sillinhalia, one of the last Gold Wheel Spirits, [Gwalynkus]  was the father of Golden Fintalen

Missed or forgot about that reference. Thanks!

 

[Erol of Backford]

So there could be descendants but likely noncanonical as it was in the HotHP... So Sillinhalia was nearly immortal as they would have lived at least 1500 year past the Dawn?

Mr. Smith, you had a great article Glorantha Digest V1 #91 on the Dancers... 1995 it was.

Mr. Martian wrote in 1998: And I have a hard time believing that the Gold Wheel Dancers, all extinct by the end of the First Age, were somehow still being used as guardians by the giants 300 or so years later. I just don't think there were ever enough Gold Wheel Dancers around to waste so many on a single form and/or task. All IMO.

Some of this older stuff is really good.

Also from 1995: He raised the golden  key so that we, too, could unlock the transformations still held within our   hearts. We were blessed for we heard and learned the Song of the Sixth Day.

So what's this golden key?

The one is painful, those Lunars:  I also think that many of the gold wheel dancers were melted into lumps of gold which the Lokarnos merchants refashioned into Wheels, in honor of one specific Gold Wheel Dancer.

Which one was that?

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[jajagappa]

30 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

So Sillinhalia was nearly immortal as they would have lived at least 1500 year past the Dawn?

Since the reference is to Dorastor, that's the Broken Council era (i.e. First Age). This would be ~350-400 ST (not 1500 years past the Dawn).

32 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

there could be descendants but likely noncanonical as it was in the HotHP

Perhaps the single child was sterile from such unusual mating? Hence no offspring.

Or perhaps there is some line, but obviously "watered" down by human blood so they do not have GWD powers (unless awakened by a GWD on some quest who's form is currently unknown - i'm thinking some sort of Fire purification ritual to burn away the human until only GWD remains).

[Erol of Backford]

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

the single child was sterile

LOL nobody wants Gold Wheel Dancers around anymore. 

 

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

awakened by a GWD on some quest who's form is currently unknown

This is interesting!

[jajagappa]

20 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

LOL nobody wants Gold Wheel Dancers around anymore. 

It's not that we don't want them around, but there are three distinct canonical pieces of info:

1) there are ~10 GWD at the Dawn

2) they disappear and are considered extinct by the end of the First Age

3) they do not reappear until the Cradle adventure in 1621 (following Urrgh the Ugly's prayers in the Underworld ca. 1616) - and that is explicitly Pinchining (who guides the Cradle to the Underworld following the Lunar assault upon it)

The GWD return may well be predicated upon Pinchining subsequently aiding the Boatrise (and it may well be that Pinchining is a key element in the Boat Planet's return to the Sky). 

But their return should be part of the Hero Wars and, IMO, player driven.

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Perhaps the single child was sterile from such unusual mating? Hence no offspring.

The mating had at least one descendent, Seri-phy-Ranor, a member of the Dorastan Ring, or its secretary.

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Mr. Martian wrote in 1998: And I have a hard time believing that the Gold Wheel Dancers, all extinct by the end of the First Age, were somehow still being used as guardians by the giants 300 or so years later. I just don't think there were ever enough Gold Wheel Dancers around to waste so many on a single form and/or task. All IMO.

There are a few God Learner reports on the treasures taken at Robcradle (or Cradlesnatch Island). Do these report weird golden artifacts for every cradle?

[DrGoth]

There's something I'm missing here. If the GWD went extinct in the first age and the giants need a GWD for a cradle, how were the God learners stealing from cradles in the second age?  No GWD's should have meant no cradles to steal from after the first age.  What am I missing?

[metcalph]

4 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

There's something I'm missing here. If the GWD went extinct in the first age and the giants need a GWD for a cradle, how were the God learners stealing from cradles in the second age?  No GWD's should have meant no cradles to steal from after the first age.  What am I missing?

We have a description of one of the cradle lootings in the 2nd age (Pavis: Threshold to Danger p116-117) which doesn't mention a Gold Wheel Dancer.  Hence I don't believe they're necessary.  The presence of a Gold Wheel Dancer probably increased the protection on the Cradles but the Giants could have sent the Cradles down without a Dancer simply because they had no choice.

[DrGoth]

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

We have a description of one of the cradle lootings in the 2nd age (Pavis: Threshold to Danger p116-117) which doesn't mention a Gold Wheel Dancer.  Hence I don't believe they're necessary.  The presence of a Gold Wheel Dancer probably increased the protection on the Cradles but the Giants could have sent the Cradles down without a Dancer simply because they had no choice.

Ok, I can see that, but my memory is also telling me that the Cradle in the 1620's was only possible because of the GWD, not that the GWD upped the chances of success.

[jajagappa]

52 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

No GWD's should have meant no cradles to steal from after the first age.  What am I missing?

My thoughts. The giants either: 1) did not originally have a dependency on GWD's to send their cradles down, or 2) had gained magic originally from the GWD to protect the cradles. They were not dependent on having a GWD on board. But the result was they were robbed by Godlearners and gave up.

The return of a GWD provided knowledge and magic about how to protect their cradles.

[Akhôrahil]

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

The mating had at least one descendent, Seri-phy-Ranor, a member of the Dorastan Ring, or its secretary.

Early Dorastor interspecies breeding makes Pavis seem positively normal by comparison.

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Early Dorastor interspecies breeding makes Pavis seem positively normal by comparison.

The Pavis breeding essentially was the continuation of Second Council breeding program.

[Akhôrahil]

18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Pavis breeding essentially was the continuation of Second Council breeding program.

Do you mean the same kind of idea (creating a maximally representative Man, one thinks), or an actual continuation of the breeding lines?

[Joerg]

Not sure about the lines (those may have died out in the later stages of the Gbaji Wawrs) but IMG certainly the "textbooks".

[Erol of Backford]

On 6/7/2023 at 6:12 AM, metcalph said:

We have a description of one of the cradle lootings in the 2nd age (Pavis: Threshold to Danger p116-117) which doesn't mention a Gold Wheel Dancer. 

Maybe it was killed?

On 6/7/2023 at 6:57 AM, jajagappa said:

But the result was they were robbed by Godlearners and gave up.

Why didn't papa or mama giant just walk down the river with them and kick some Godlearner butt? Think on it, little humans get walked to school, they don't normally get sacrificed to the psychopaths of society until closer to teenage years. Wonder who of this as cool back then, different yes?

On 6/7/2023 at 5:50 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Early Dorastor interspecies breeding makes Pavis seem positively normal by comparison.

Smaller giants should just have mated with gold wheel dancers who had enhanced their size.

My take is the gold wheel dancers didn't die out, they are simple inanimate objects (the ones not melted down into actual gold wheels, such an unfortunate act of greedy trades?) until reunited with their spirit. Discorporate spirits from expensive golden bodies... still hoping for a quest to be published reuniting a spirit with a body...

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

My take is the gold wheel dancers didn't die out, they are simple inanimate objects (the ones not melted down into actual gold wheels, such an unfortunate act of greedy trades?) until reunited with their spirit. Discorporate spirits from expensive golden bodies... still hoping for a quest to be published reuniting a spirit with a body...

I think that's a reasonable approach to take. 

Perhaps some day I will come up with such a quest. Somehow I feel it belongs in Vanch since the Vanchites are such scavengers (or at least the golden object is) and have a tradition of transforming objects into other purposes.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Why didn't papa or mama giant just walk down the river with them and kick some Godlearner butt?

It's an interesting question. One probably needs to consider what happened with Thog and the Faceless Statue. One feels that there is some connection between these ancient giants and Genert, and there's something to do with Genert's death and dissolution (what might amount to a curse?) that either precludes or largely prevents them from aiding the birth of the baby down the birth canal.

[Erol of Backford]

On 6/10/2023 at 12:33 PM, jajagappa said:

that either precludes or largely prevents them from aiding the birth of the baby down the birth canal

So the PC's need to solve this birthling conundrum via Heroquest after researching giant birthing rituals, maybe Otra could help with that and then fine and unite gold wheel dancers with their spirits.

As this thread has called out several (noncanonical) gold wheel dancers, they could be located and questioned as to other inanimate dancer bodies' locations... sounds like fun.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

maybe Otra could help with that

Maybe Gonn Orta can't because it needs a (giant) woman's knowledge... 🙂 

[Erol of Backford]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Maybe Gonn Orta can't because it needs a (giant) woman's knowledge... 🙂 

Maybe his giant woman only wants him to listen and not actually solve the cradle problem...

[Erol of Backford]

So reading Mr. Phipp's Secrets of Hero Questing I am inspired to further develop a Hero Quest(s) related to the Sun Wheel Dancers and the Sun Wheel Ruins.

It would likely first involve an Exploratory Hero Quest going back to the Sun Wheel - what is the name of the city before it was sacked?

Was it Elempur or something else? Do the Sixfold Wheel Rune or the Eightfold Wheel Rune have to do with the Sun Wheel Ruins?

How would the Exploratory Hero Quest be developed to know the who, what, where, when, why and how of the Sun Wheel Dancers and the ruins?

Would a mirror showing what something was like in the Storm Age show the SunWheel Ruins prior to its demise or did the Sun Wheel establishment not exist yet in the Storm Age? I think it was at the hands of the Orlanthi but not recalling details of it being sacked?

Did the Sun Wheel Dancers come with Yelm from he returned from Hell?

What are their origins, how did they come to be and where, was Yelm their father?

With a PC Sage being at the Sun Wheel Ruins with a whole bunch of Knowledge and Reconstruction spells, better yet a portable Lhankor Mhy shrine the history of the Sun Wheel Dancers could be deciphered. 

Why were they there, what were they doing?

Possibly with spells and an exploratory hero quest or several hero quests the PC's could find and reunite the Dancer's spirits with their bodies?

Maybe initially develop a list of the Sun Wheel Dancers and possibly what may have happened to them.

The Golden Bow that was a Dancer and where it is now.

It would be epic to have the Sun Wheel Dancer sentient Golden Bow with inherent fire powers?

Just curious does anyone know what the 10 spokes of the golden wheel represent?

  

[Erol of Backford]

On 6/6/2023 at 4:15 PM, jajagappa said:

(unless awakened by a GWD on some quest who's form is currently unknown - i'm thinking some sort of Fire purification ritual to burn away the human until only GWD remains).

This is what we need! Maybe not burn away but maybe enhance the GWD part?

[DrGoth]

Just how much are the gold wheel dancers linked to the sun?  they are gold wheel dancers, not sun wheel dancers.  Yes, it is Sun Wheel ruins and gold is the sun's metal.  But are they heavily solar linked?