Erol of Backford Posted July 24, 2022 Author Share Posted July 24, 2022 Scratching my head. Didn't his followers spread disease secretly and then offer a cure by following him, sounds like a Mallia ruse to me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormi Phengaria Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said: Scratching my head. Didn't his followers spread disease secretly and then offer a cure by following him, sounds like a Mallia ruse to me? It's very worth noting that this is is just the prevailing, received history. Late Third Age Nysaloreans blame the plague upon Gbaji/Arkat, though they still agreed that Nysalor could cure it. Consider the very strange nature of this plague: it was truly incurable by anyone save the Riddlers, and Chalana Arroy was noted as failing against it. Mallia does have a disease like that, her actual plague. But her plague (in RuneQuest) is incurable by anything other than Divine Intervention, or initiating to her cult. Were the Riddlers mass-initiating Westerners into the cult of Mallia? I find that pretty dubious. So... what sort of ailment could be spread by both Arkat and Nysalor, and be cured by Illumination? I have a thought, and I'd be surprised if any here had never experienced this sickness! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Erol of Backford said: Scratching my head. Didn't his followers spread disease secretly and then offer a cure by following him, sounds like a Mallia ruse to me? That was Gbaji, the evil demon brought by Arkat to destroy the bright and wondrous light of Nysalor! 😉 Bear in mind that the project to create the god Nysalor was brought about by many peoples working cooperatively together and sacrificing great magical energy to bring it to fruition. The Gold Wheel Dancers were fully part of that effort (and were not encountered again after Nysalor was born). In the Broken Council LARP, as Speaking Wheel, I had my allies specifically place me into the god as the Voice of Nysalor. It was Speaking Wheel's final transformation reflected by his final form, a Golden Trumpet. You'll not find any alternate view, though anyone could create a different tale for their Glorantha. Personally, I found it appropriate and appealing (and perhaps intriguing). Edited July 25, 2022 by jajagappa 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erol of Backford Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 The PC's of my campaign would not sound that trumpet unless it was after being reunited with its spirit and no longer a poisoner of a false godling... why didn't Arkat reunite Speaking Wheel's spirit with its physical trumpet form in lieu of just hiding it somewhere. Also wouldn't Speaking Wheel have been "horrified" by what the false godling was prophesizing and have been unable to have spoken any longer, seems like a bit of hypocrisy here? I did find some other interesting tidbits however. In Tradetalk 04: "The Uz were not the only people to arrive in Kethaela during the Lesser Darkness. During that time a race named the Gold Wheel Dancers also appeared. Some said they were the splinters of the Enemy, and their nature was indeed painfully bright. They had no clan of their own, but lived with the other peoples of the land. We know that one dwelled in Keroinela with Isidilian the Wise, and another made its home in Caladraland. During the darkness the dancers would be slowly used up, until there was only one left to greet the dawn." I suppose that is Speaking Wheel? Another would be with Isidilian, yet another would be Florencia Sillinhalia and a 4th Pinchining. To be sure was Pinchining the one brought back due to the 01 crit roll made by Ururg. He was sent a vision by the "Wheel of Wheels" so that would be another, a fifth of the ten? Where is the Wheel of Wheels sending the vision from? It might be interesting to say that the Gold Wheel Dancer with Isidilian in Dwarf Mine is different than Speaking Wheel and the mebership of the Unity Council changed similar to Martaler the Blazing Forge switching or being switched with Isidilian? How many Unity Councils were there and which Gold Wheel Dancer was with Isidilian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g33k Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 20 hours ago, Erol of Backford said: Scratching my head. Didn't his followers spread disease secretly and then offer a cure by following him, sounds like a Mallia ruse to me? n.b. the "true history" of Glorantha -- including the "truth" of differing / competing / mutually-incompatible myths -- is intentionally ambiguous. Two things that are mutually-incompatible can both still be "true." It isn't supposed to ever resolve into one single clear narrative. 1 1 Quote C'es ne pas un .sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted July 26, 2022 Share Posted July 26, 2022 22 hours ago, Erol of Backford said: why didn't Arkat reunite Speaking Wheel's spirit with its physical trumpet form in lieu of just hiding it somewhere. Also wouldn't Speaking Wheel have been "horrified" by what the false godling was prophesizing and have been unable to have spoken any longer, seems like a bit of hypocrisy here? Why not? My opinion is that entering into/becoming part of a god largely obliterates the individual. After that point, there is no longer a distinct Speaking Wheel (nor is there necessarily a physical trumpet - it has also been incorporated into the god's being). Arkat would not have known, cared, or been able to bring such back together. A god is greater than the sum of its "parts" on one hand, and the "parts" are no longer individual once merged into the oneness of the deity. Arkat may have cut out and hidden the Tongue of Gbaji/Nysalor. If you found it, perhaps it looks like a golden tongue. Or perhaps it does look now like a golden trumpet. Either way, it is very likely to have some portion of the spirit of Gbaji/Nysalor (and not the spirit of Speaking Wheel). And as such its "voice" might tell the Truth, or it might equally tell "lies" that cannot be distinguished from Truth, or it might engage in Nysalor Riddles with whoever found it. But Speaking Wheel's spirit effectively "died" when he became part of the god. Therefore, it exists somewhere in the Underworld. The Court of the Maggot Liege (i.e. dead Yelm) seems a likely place to find it. What form it takes there is an open question. 22 hours ago, Erol of Backford said: To be sure was Pinchining the one brought back due to the 01 crit roll made by Ururg. Yes, there is no question of that. 22 hours ago, Erol of Backford said: During the darkness the dancers would be slowly used up, until there was only one left to greet the dawn." I suppose that is Speaking Wheel? Another would be with Isidilian, yet another would be Florencia Sillinhalia and a 4th Pinchining. Bear in mind Tradetalk is not canonical, so its speculations are just that. If they fit what you want to do, then that works. In the Broken Council LARP, Speaking Wheel was the only active Gold Wheel Dancer, but I held the rest of the Gold Wheel Dancers as "tools" to barter with. The Guide, which is canonical, shows 10 active at the Dawn. Gradually the rest transformed into tools before the beginning of the God Project. Likely there was friendship with the dwarfs as other members of the Unity Council. Have one at Dwarf Mine and one commonly at Gemborg would work just fine. But I don't think you need to work out all these details for events that are 1000+ years in the past. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Desperate WindChild Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 On 7/26/2022 at 3:34 AM, jajagappa said: If you found it, perhaps it looks like a golden tongue. Or perhaps it does look now like a golden trumpet. Either way, it is very likely to have some portion of the spirit of Gbaji/Nysalor (and not the spirit of Speaking Wheel). And as such its "voice" might tell the Truth, or it might equally tell "lies" that cannot be distinguished from Truth, or it might engage in Nysalor Riddles with whoever found it. then adventurers (pc or npc) may find it. I imagine an ambitious scholar identifying the trumpet-tong, imagining "hey I just find the spirit of a wheel dancer, I will awake it and show it to my priests", then, gbaji will corrupt all the temple and maybe more 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 Dismanteling a deity into its constituent parts is a very Orlanthi thing to do - see the dismemberment of Yelm, producing a number of interesting older versions. What you get back may very well have been altered a lot, but may still contain some of the entity you are after. Which may make the alteration hurt a little more. Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said: imagining "hey I just find the spirit of a wheel dancer, I will awake it and show it to my priests", then, gbaji will corrupt all the temple and maybe more What could possibly go wrong??? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manunancy Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 (edited) On 7/27/2022 at 3:29 PM, jajagappa said: What could possibly go wrong??? Whatever happen is very likely to be an illuminating experience (or experiment ?).... Edited July 29, 2022 by Manunancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erol of Backford Posted July 29, 2022 Author Share Posted July 29, 2022 Illumination is a good thing for PC's IMG as it opens the game scenario spectrum immensely. Thank you everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 On 7/25/2022 at 2:48 AM, jajagappa said: On 7/24/2022 at 9:47 PM, Erol of Backford said: Scratching my head. Didn't his followers spread disease secretly and then offer a cure by following him, sounds like a Mallia ruse to me? That was Gbaji, the evil demon brought by Arkat to destroy the bright and wondrous light of Nysalor! 😉 Yes, don't forget that Nysalor and Gbaji are two completely different people. They might inhabit the body of Osentalka, the Perfect One, but they are entirely separate. Gbaji Worshippers did all the bad things and Nysalor Worshippers did all the good things. 1 Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erol of Backford Posted September 10, 2022 Author Share Posted September 10, 2022 I had to add this to the thread: Jaja said: Yes, either form is possible/feasible, and I'm sure it would "speak" or "sing" its "Truths", likely in the form of Nysalor Riddles (and not the type you need to engage in a contest for - it will speak, and you cannot unhear what it says, though whether you understand it is another question). It's reasonable that Speaking Wheel's spirit has gone to the Underworld. Court of the Maggot Liege is as good a place as any, but could also be a "treasure" locked away in Wonderhome (a gift from Arkat to his mother, Kyger Litor), or held by Ty Kora Tek in the Court of Silence, ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erol of Backford Posted September 10, 2022 Author Share Posted September 10, 2022 A horn, the walls of Jericho... that would be a very cool artifact. Speaking Wheel riddles everyone into illumination and lets you destroy fortifications. I wounder(home) if the Lunars are questing for Speaking Wheel/the horn to destroy the walls, say at Whitewall and the PC heroes are sent to thwart them and end up with Speaking Wheel in golden horn form. Jaja, didn't you say you actually played Speaking Wheel for one of the Con events back in the day? Do you have any stat ideas for what a Golden Wheel Dancer's stats would be? Likely it was free-form but any ideas would be interesting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted September 10, 2022 Share Posted September 10, 2022 35 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said: Jaja, didn't you say you actually played Speaking Wheel for one of the Con events back in the day? Do you have any stat ideas for what a Golden Wheel Dancer's stats would be? Likely it was free-form but any ideas would be interesting... I did play Speaking Wheel when the Broken Council LARP. No one ever developed stats for the Gold Wheel Dancers (not like they are an existing race). Some thoughts: their Runes are Man and Fire, and probably Harmony as 3rd Rune. nothing to indicate any unusual size, so I'd start with typical human stats (though I could see SIZ as variable, particularly since they can Transform into Useful Tools) they are certainly magical - POW is likely higher than humans; and similar to a dryad's ability, they have a natural magic to Transform (Form) - possibly this requires some MP expenditure (maybe if they change SIZ in the process?) since they are comprised of Fire, they probably have natural abilities for Ignite and Light, and maybe even a Lightwall effect. each has some natural skill(s) at a mastery level. Speaking Wheel has Orate and/or Sing. I think of Pinchining as "Spinning" Wheel and might have Dance. Others might have skills in Craft, Evaluate, Bargain, etc. - probably always Communication, Knowledge, or Perception based though. when in a Tool form, they should augment the skill of their user/wielder (maybe based on their INT x5%?). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erol of Backford Posted September 11, 2022 Author Share Posted September 11, 2022 Adding to this thread as its related and good info: And even if it were hidden somewhere in Peloria, it could have been carried off in many directions by those who found it and did not know what it was (e.g. Sheng's nomads could have carried it off to the Kingdom of Ignorance or Kralorela; Lunar missionaries could have carried it down the Janube;...) A trumpet, eh? Separated from its imperial provenance and dispersed into the nomadic outback, eh? Maybe the "Gold Wheel Dancers" are a lot farther from extinction than people believe. Or maybe they weren't the only species within their overall taxonomy . . . the mysterious "artifacts" of the Fel-Dichi people could have been another expression of their strange object transience or, as others have speculated in the past, the Fel-Dichi didn't die out so much as survive in the form of their artifacts. Is it possible these are the 10 Gold Wheel Dancers at the Dawn? I don't see Spinning Wheel which became a coin or were they something else at the time of the Hero Wars? Possibly all 10 are back to an animate object/spirit of sorts? Wasn't there a cradle in the nursery in Snakepipe Hollow with strands of gold in it? Doesn't the 2nd on left look like a cradle? Cutting Wheel, Looking Wheel, is that part of Ernalda's Mirror? Wait, that not golden... Possibly any of these items could be a temporary form of one of the Gold Wheel Dancers? Speaking Wheel would have been the trumpet or a tongue? Either way thank you Mr. Martin & Jaja. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erol of Backford Posted October 9, 2022 Author Share Posted October 9, 2022 (edited) Self-dismemberment is a core Arkat capability: Did Arkat use some Heorquest version of Eurmal abilities to dismember Nysalor resulting in Speaking Wheel being separated as a trumpet of French horn (whatever you desire) now possessed by Gonn? On another note which of the Gold Wheel Dancers might still be hidden/dwelling under the Sun Wheel Ruins? I keep going back to the Lighthouse and the light/beacon having been a Gold Wheel Dancer in the form of a sun-hawk/whatever which was also the standard of some part of the True Golden Horde, it somehow flew off back to Sun Wheel Ruins and ended up like Sir August in a sort of suspended animation? Just curious does anyone think the 10 tools/items above could be the Golden Wheel Dancers? Spoiler Edited October 9, 2022 by Erol of Backford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfbrandi Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said: ended up like Sir August in a sort of suspended animation Yeah, I’ve got no idea who that is. Edited October 9, 2022 by mfbrandi spoiler redacted Quote NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erol of Backford Posted October 9, 2022 Author Share Posted October 9, 2022 Yes and was to be hidden.. sorry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfbrandi Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 3 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said: Yes and was to be hidden.. sorry! No, I am sorry. Fixed. 1 Quote NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted October 9, 2022 Share Posted October 9, 2022 4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said: Just curious does anyone think the 10 tools/items above could be the Golden Wheel Dancers? Potentially you could make the Trumpet be Speaking Wheel. Transformed by the 3rd Age into a Praxian Medicine Bundle. I would not have more than one be a Gold Wheel Dancer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erol of Backford Posted October 17, 2022 Author Share Posted October 17, 2022 I had to add this: "In the Skyship scenario, Dormal is the steersman, wrestling with the ships huge steering oar. But most of the crew are from the original ship (Anaxial's Ark), including Anaxial as captain, Lukarius as Commander of the ships defenders, etc. A Waertagi was the original ships designer and magically defends it, a Gold Wheel Dancer is the sounder, a giantess is the deck officer. But what Dormals role is before the ship returns we don't know." Thank you Mr. Cakes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erol of Backford Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 So continuing with the Gold Wheel Dancer discussion, in TotRM Issue 17 there is an article about Vithela... How many the GWD's would be in Vithela or is this just rumor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said: How many the GWD's would be in Vithela or is this just rumor? My feeling is that it's just a rumor, and that the GWD's were a species native to central Genertela. However, if it works on your campaign to have a remnant there, then I don't think it would be problematic. They were never a populous species though so I'd have it as one who might be interested to learn what had become of the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erol of Backford Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 1 minute ago, jajagappa said: were never a populous species though Yes like 10 at the Dawn... we have accounted for a few of them, thanks for the help on that path, I just keep seeing references that we didn't have 40 years ago! We know nothing of Vithela yet so that's another rainy day research topic... I have to ask is it possible that one of the GWD's are Bet-Pot's helmet? Maybe he maintains an illusion on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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