Sun Wheel Ruin

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, DrGoth said:

Just how much are the gold wheel dancers linked to the sun?  they are gold wheel dancers, not sun wheel dancers.  Yes, it is Sun Wheel ruins and gold is the sun's metal.  But are they heavily solar linked?

The Gold Wheel Dancers are connected to the Fire Rune, as is the Sun.

The Guide p.189 notes: "This mysterious race, known variously as the Gold Wheel Dancers, Sun Wheel Dancers, Silver People, or the Yardoni, was a remnant of the Gods Age that survived the Great Darkness. They were demigods, variously described as a golden circle, a flaming wheel, or a silver dancer surrounded by a fiery golden halo."

As for the Sun Wheel Ruins, same page: "Sun Wheel Ruin: These ancient ruins are associated with the now-extinct race called the Gold Wheel Dancers or the Silver People."

They are connected as well with the Movement and Harmony Runes, if I recall correctly.

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

It would likely first involve an Exploratory Hero Quest going back to the Sun Wheel - what is the name of the city before it was sacked?

Guide p.708 shows its name at the Dawn: 

"Gold Wheel: This golden temple was home to a handful of demigods called the Gold Wheel Dancers. They helped found the Unity Council, but soon the last remaining Gold Wheel Dancers left the world. Only about ten were left by the Dawn."

Also no direct reference to it being sacked. However, it is right in line with the march of Arkat against Dorastor so anything still there at that time would have been taken. The Gold Wheel Dancers were already gone.

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Was it Elempur or something else? Do the Sixfold Wheel Rune or the Eightfold Wheel Rune have to do with the Sun Wheel Ruins?

As above. It is not Elempur, which was destroyed long before in the Gods Age.

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Did the Sun Wheel Dancers come with Yelm from he returned from Hell?

No, they survived the Great Darkness and were one of the races to greet the Dawn.

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

What are their origins, how did they come to be and where, was Yelm their father?

No indication or reference that Yelm was their father. More likely Lodril or Lokarnos if of godly origin as they are not celestial beings. The Prosopaedia notes them as non-human and appearing as large gold disks which spin on their axis (i.e. like Pinchining). It does not note their origin.

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Why were they there, what were they doing?

It was their home, and they were living there... Since the place was a temple, presumably they also worship there. 

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Just curious does anyone know what the 10 spokes of the golden wheel represent?

Legs and arms???

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

 

On 6/30/2023 at 7:25 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Was it Elempur or something else? Do the Sixfold Wheel Rune or the Eightfold Wheel Rune have to do with the Sun Wheel Ruins?

As above. It is not Elempur, which was destroyed long before in the Gods Age.

So was Nivorah, the city of horses, which was re-settled (in at least two different places) after the Ice Age (possibly with genuine ruins from post-Flood Nivorah in both places thanks to transport by the Glacier).

Old city sites tend to be re-settled - they are magical places. Sometimes even a fragment of a former city like e.g. the top portion of a ziggurat tossed around by the Glacier or other violent forces will create a shadow of the old city.

(in the improvise Blue Moon plateau troll game under HeroQuest or Hero Wars rules that I keep bringing up, Greg had us troll tribes find the Cap of the ziggurat of one of the Eight Planetary Sons deep underground. Our efforts to transport this back to the Blue Moon Plateau were thwarted by the Lunars who intercepted our hidden transport and claimed it as one of the pieces of their Red Goddess.)

 

[jajagappa]

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Old city sites tend to be re-settled - they are magical places. Sometimes even a fragment of a former city like e.g. the top portion of a ziggurat tossed around by the Glacier or other violent forces will create a shadow of the old city.

Which can certainly be the case, but neither the locations of Elempur or Nivorah are known (despite efforts by DH and Lunars to find and "resettle" or create new Nivorahs). Bear in mind as well that the Glacier probably stopped shy of the Hill of Gold and did not cover southern Peloria.

[Erol of Backford]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Which can certainly be the case, but neither the locations of Elempur or Nivorah are known (despite efforts by DH and Lunars to find and "resettle" or create new Nivorahs).

Why not just use LM spells on the top portion of a ziggurat to learn its past and so know the location?

The same with the history of the ruins of any location (Sun Wheel Ruins) a LM Sage could go there and start looking into the past of a place via spells and know...

Knowledge: allows user to read the past history of an item.If the item has a long history, the spell starts at the beginning unless the user dictates a particular time at which to start.

In this case they could dictate the history of the top of the ziggurat from just before the glacier came or something like that? The same could be applied to know more of the Sun Wheel Dancers (or anything for that matter) before their city was sacked.

With the proximity to the river Elempur doesn't seem to be anywhere near Sun Wheel Ruins?

Sun Wheel was destroyed by Orlanthi IIRC but who destroyed Sun Wheel?

Beastmen or even Chaos?

Also maybe the 8 spokes have something to do with Buserian's Frame?

Edited July 2, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[soltakss]

On 6/30/2023 at 6:25 PM, Erol of Backford said:

So reading Mr. Phipp's Secrets of Hero Questing I am inspired to further develop a Hero Quest(s) related to the Sun Wheel Dancers and the Sun Wheel Ruins.

Excellent, my work here is done!

On 6/30/2023 at 6:25 PM, Erol of Backford said:

It would likely first involve an Exploratory Hero Quest going back to the Sun Wheel - what is the name of the city before it was sacked?

Was it Elempur or something else? Do the Sixfold Wheel Rune or the Eightfold Wheel Rune have to do with the Sun Wheel Ruins?

In a HeroQuest, it doesn't really matter. Unless, of course, you are asking to put it in the HeroQuest.

On 6/30/2023 at 6:25 PM, Erol of Backford said:

How would the Exploratory Hero Quest be developed to know the who, what, where, when, why and how of the Sun Wheel Dancers and the ruins?

You could interact with the myths and thereby find things out about the city. You won't find out minor issues like what the taverns were called, unless you interacted with the myths of the founding of those taverns, but you could get broad-stroke information.

On 6/30/2023 at 6:25 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Would a mirror showing what something was like in the Storm Age show the SunWheel Ruins prior to its demise or did the Sun Wheel establishment not exist yet in the Storm Age? I think it was at the hands of the Orlanthi but not recalling details of it being sacked?

That could work. The Adventurers could also travel through the mirror to those myths and interact with them.

On 6/30/2023 at 6:25 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Did the Sun Wheel Dancers come with Yelm from he returned from Hell?

What are their origins, how did they come to be and where, was Yelm their father?

I'm not sure if anyone knows. 

On 6/30/2023 at 6:25 PM, Erol of Backford said:

With a PC Sage being at the Sun Wheel Ruins with a whole bunch of Knowledge and Reconstruction spells, better yet a portable Lhankor Mhy shrine the history of the Sun Wheel Dancers could be deciphered. 

That is possible, but it could also send them mad.

I am sure that Lhankor Mhy Libraries give classes on how to use Knowledge and Reconstruction to avoid being sent mad by the knowledge.

On 6/30/2023 at 6:25 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Possibly with spells and an exploratory hero quest or several hero quests the PC's could find and reunite the Dancer's spirits with their bodies?

That is possible, or the Adventurers could bring back a Golden Wheel Dancer, or a Sun Wheel Dancer if they are different. It may, or may not be, intentional or planned.

 

[Erol of Backford]

5 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Unless, of course, you are asking to put it in the HeroQuest.

I am looking to have the PC's develop several Hero Quests as a multipart saga. They find clues about the Gold Wheel Dancers, go there to explore and to to study via spells and Hero Quests.

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

You could interact with the myths and thereby find things out about the city.

There would need to be several chapters in this book of Hero Quests to get to the detail desired.

It's almost like the plot would drive itself as the PC's develop what they wish to discover at Sun Wheel but it gives me an uneasy feeling as it leaves things unplanned. The Agimori PC's we have would ultimately love to get some powers related to fire - Gold wheel Dancer powers of sort but I'll have to go back through everything written and take notes as to what those might be based on specific Dancers and their abilities.

25 minutes ago, soltakss said:

That is possible, or the Adventurers could bring back a Golden Wheel Dancer, or a Sun Wheel Dancer if they are different. It may, or may not be, intentional or planned.

Unintentional is better for me, similar to the 01 being rolled by Mr. Kaufer's character Urrrggh the Ugly. Its like a defining moment in the game... I am sure Mr. Stafford winged a whole bunch of stuff as it made for more game fun.

I am only a 1/3 of the way through Secrets of Heroquesting but its helping a whole bunch in my getting more comfortable with outlining Hero Quests.

Thank you again Soltakss.

[soltakss]

5 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I am only a 1/3 of the way through Secrets of Heroquesting but its helping a whole bunch in my getting more comfortable with outlining Hero Quests.

That was why I wrote it in the first place, to get people more comfortable with HeroQuesting, so I am glad that it helped.

5 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Thank you again Soltakss.

You're welcome.

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Why not just use LM spells on the top portion of a ziggurat to learn its past and so know the location?

Perhaps trying to reconstruct something into the Godtime simply fails, or exposes you to some revelation that is not good for the mind, or perhaps it attracts things from the Godtime to see you?

Or maybe the top portion of the ziggurat's history starts as a stone in the XX Mountains? You might have a long wait until it is chiseled out, moved, and eventually made into the top stone.

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

With the proximity to the river Elempur doesn't seem to be anywhere near Sun Wheel Ruins?

Bear in mind that the maps from GRoY are symbolic maps that capture Plentonius' interpretation in the mid-1st Age of what the mythic realms and how the "Perfect" world was ordered. For all we know, Elempur may have been in Dragon Pass (e.g. it doesn't even appear as part of the Ten Cities on p.12), Nivorah may have been in the Arcos Valley (e.g. note how in the map on p.8, the Land of Serenity is in the southeast, not directly to the south). 

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

If the item has a long history, the spell starts at the beginning unless the user dictates a particular time at which to start.

Remember that events play back in real-time, so trying to hit an ancient/mythic date is 1) going to be very, very difficult, and 2) you're only going to have a limited viewing time for something that spans 100s or 1000s of years.

As Jeff has noted from a chronology standpoint all these are before Time, but provide some approximation:

2000 years ago – I Fought, We Won, and the Unity Battle. After this, came the Heortling kingdom, which lasted about 800 years (until Gbaji destroyed it).

2500 years ago – The Chaos Age, which lasted until the Unity Battle.

3000 years ago – the Ice Age

5000 years ago – the Vingkotlings

10,000 years ago – Orlanth kills Yelm

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

In this case they could dictate the history of the top of the ziggurat from just before the glacier came or something like that?

And if the Glacier didn't come there???

For anything pre-Time, you're really better off heroquesting into the mythos and try to build from there.

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

but who destroyed Sun Wheel?

Beastmen or even Chaos?

Since Nysalor was a God of Light, most likely the troll or storm followers of Arkat.

[Erol of Backford]

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Or maybe the top portion of the ziggurat's history starts as a stone in the XX Mountains?

I suppose to do this at the actual Sun Wheel Ruins would be able to date them closer to the actual structure rather than stone from some distant mountain.

8 hours ago, soltakss said:

I am sure that Lhankor Mhy Libraries give classes on how to use Knowledge and Reconstruction to avoid being sent mad by the knowledge.

I hope the PC's will enroll this fall!? Likely in Nochet...

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Perhaps trying to reconstruct something into the Godtime simply fails, or exposes you to some revelation that is not good for the mind, or perhaps it attracts things from the Godtime to see you?

If they pass their coursework in Nochet maybe they could avoid this drain-bremage from occurring.

Will have to review all the Dancer sources again to figure out possible stages for a Sun Wheel Hero Quest... Thank you again.

 

[Joerg]

On 7/2/2023 at 2:06 AM, jajagappa said:

Which can certainly be the case, but neither the locations of Elempur or Nivorah are known (despite efforts by DH and Lunars to find and "resettle" or create new Nivorahs).

All it takes is a plausible claim to tie into the presence in Godtime. Stuff like statuary and possibly altar stones may be moved around by victors.

 

On 7/2/2023 at 2:06 AM, jajagappa said:

Bear in mind as well that the Glacier probably stopped shy of the Hill of Gold and did not cover southern Peloria.

Of course it stopped shy of the higher elevations of the Pelorian bowl, but that doesn't mean it could not followed the river bed further up. Glacier fronts move forward and backward, leaving chains of moraines along those fronts.

Another possible location diaspora may have resulted from the lands being shattered into shards of reality in the Gods War, patched together in the web of Arachne Solara.

[Erol of Backford]

On 7/1/2023 at 6:54 PM, Joerg said:

(in the improvise Blue Moon plateau troll game under HeroQuest or Hero Wars rules that I keep bringing up, Greg had us troll tribes find the Cap of the ziggurat of one of the Eight Planetary Sons deep underground. Our efforts to transport this back to the Blue Moon Plateau were thwarted by the Lunars who intercepted our hidden transport and claimed it as one of the pieces of their Red Goddess.)

If you look at the quest on p.21 of TotRm 10 All at sea, ashore! there is a related theme... with Waetagi but Lunars don't want anything to do with it?

Relate to the Sun Wheel Ruins, the foundations or remnants of them are still there or so I assume and spells cast on them may allow insight as to who plundered and where any parts of Sun Wheel were taken, including its inhabitants. Of course this would be like an arkeological dig done with Lhankor Mhy spells and maybe a sanctified book/tome to recharge divine spells?

This has a lot of good plot links to it, thanks once again all.

On another note, are you able to store LM reconstruction videos in truestone?!

I suspect the Glorantan equivalents to our USB's are truestone shaped like little figurines carved by Mostali.

The dust is used on their grinding and polishing equipment that never wears out.

[Erol of Backford]

Rather than eat up the Pavis thread I thought this would be a good place to get more detail reasoning that the copper people and the Gold Wheel Dancers have some things in common...

By Soltakss (sorry not sure how to quote from other threads without copying the entire thread)

...where they gained copper limbs and became Earth Children (the GWD's are fire children?)

Not much to tell, really. They found an old, ruined idol in the Wastes and realised that putting a body part into its mouth meant that the mouth snapped shut, biting off the body part, but when they pulled back the body part was intact but made of living copper. They all had a go, of course and gained copper arms and legs Nobody dared put their vital locations into the mouth. Whenever they met people of the Earth, for example Oasis Folk, they could claim to be Children of the Earth, for who else had living copper limbs? Eventually, it became important in the Resurrecting Genert thread. One Adventurer gained an Earth Boon on a HeroQuest and asked to be entirely copper. He then blew a Copper Trumpet that awakened an army of Copper Warriors, which had a bit of a catch-22 in that the trumpet could only be blown by a Copper warrior and the Copper warriors were buried, like the Terracotta Army, so he got around that quite nicely. A lot of the threads in the campaign were intertwined, which is how I like it.

Curious where it was located for you in Prax of the wastes?

What sort of idol, jakel, reptile or maybe some sort of giant snake so as to be related to the Earth Cult?

Did they repair the copper limbs when they were damaged and when they bled was it... what was it? LOL

They are like Gold Wheel Dancers but made of copper? Makes me wonder how did the GWD's come to be, were they around in the God's Time as there were some, maybe 10 or so at the Dawn.

Maybe there is an idol deep down in the subbasement 15 at the Sun Wheel Ruins that connects or nearly connects to the Underworld and Lodri is there... this could surely go somewhere but don't wish it to be to God Learner like their birthing machine like on Barren Island in TotRM 10...

[mfbrandi]

5 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

(sorry not sure how to quote from other threads without copying the entire thread)

One way: highlight and “quote selection,” starting a new comment in the wrong thread; “select all” in your new, unposted comment (in the wrong thread); cut; paste into your comment in the right thread in another tab; “submit reply” in the right thread only (the other comment is empty, anyway). Make sense?

There is probably a more elegant way, but I am too stupid to have found it.

[soltakss]

16 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Curious where it was located for you in Prax of the wastes?

In the wastes somewhere.

16 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

What sort of idol, jakel, reptile or maybe some sort of giant snake so as to be related to the Earth Cult?

It was a gigantic jackal head. Actually, it was the head of a giant son of Genert, buried up to his neck. They realised it afterwards and excavated him. In my game, he was one of the original River Voices but sided with Chaos.

16 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Did they repair the copper limbs when they were damaged and when they bled was it... what was it? LOL

Heal worked on the limbs, as they were living copper. When they bled they bled red blood.

16 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

They are like Gold Wheel Dancers but made of copper? Makes me wonder how did the GWD's come to be, were they around in the God's Time as there were some, maybe 10 or so at the Dawn.

They were more like the Copper Army from the Nomad Gods game. I don't know anywhere enough about Gold Wheel Dancers to comment on any similarities.

 

 

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Makes me wonder how did the GWD's come to be, were they around in the God's Time as there were some, maybe 10 or so at the Dawn.

The Gold Wheel Dancers existed in the God Time. Only a few remained at the Dawn.

Their origins are never explicitly stated, but there's probably a fair chance they were created by Lokarnos - many gods were busy fashioning "people" out of the various Runes. 

[Joerg]

11 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The Gold Wheel Dancers existed in the God Time.

For a moment, this had me think of the child of Arachne Solara as having a clockwork interior consisting of rimless wheel coins on pivots...

Edited September 24, 2023 by Joerg
Finding a different term for axes as the plural of axis, because of similar double meanings.

[Erol of Backford]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

It was a gigantic jackal head.

There is a scenario Hell Hound (TotRM 15 p.15) which could be linked to your Jaclal and would be part of cleansing the bog, the whole Resurrecting (or not) Genert story line or at least bringing the river back to life as a continuation of the River of Cradles... I've been wanting to do this story line involving several sets of ruins with hints of ancient Egyptian flair. Who to have better build old ruins than the Mostali?

Did they make the bodies of the Gold Wheel Dances like Hugo (example) and did some divine power breath life into them? Are sorts of sorcery, form set gold, fire, etc.

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

there's probably a fair chance they were created by Lokarnos

Possibly in the deep basements of Sun Wheel Ruins there is an assembly line... maybe they are similar to the Silver Statue in some ways? Mostal made the Sun Wheel Dancers and Lokarnos brought them to life?

   

Doesn't the Silver Statue turn an old Dwarven ruin into a new refreshed town or something?

 

On 6/6/2019 at 10:06 AM, MOB said:

There's a metallic statue in a special niche at the town gate. Who it originally was is uncertain – perhaps Zzabur himself – but over many centuries the punters have worn its features so smooth it has taken on the generic appearance of a woman. It is now colloquially known as “Lady Luck”. (T)

This would be a weird twist, that the metallic statue at Casino Town was a Gold Wheel Dancer as well?

So now we have gold, silver and copper automatons given spirits by various divine entities... and a Jackal idol which must be a demigod in some sort of inanimate state something like Baroshi?

 

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Possibly in the deep basements of Sun Wheel Ruins there is an assembly line... maybe they are similar to the Silver Statue in some ways? Mostal made the Sun Wheel Dancers and Lokarnos brought them to life?

Doesn't feel right for the Gold Wheel Dancers. These are beings of Fire and Movement, not automatons (unlike the Dancing Silver Statue). Now, it's feasible that Mostal made the Sun Wheel Ruins as a home for the GWD and that there was some period of cooperation between them there were the GWD taught the Mostali how to transmute or run some of their machines (much like Pinchining activates and energizes the magics of the Cradle).

[Erol of Backford]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Now, it's feasible that Mostal made the Sun Wheel Ruins as a home for the GWD and that there was some period of cooperation between them there were the GWD taught the Mostali how to transmute or run some of their machines (much like Pinchining activates and energizes the magics of the Cradle).

There seems to be a strong parallel with the GWD's being able to transmute into objects with a spirit and the Silver Statue as it transformed refreshing the Dwarvish construct/whatever it was? Maybe it became the Dwarvish wyter of the mansion it restored? I want to think the Silver Statue has some sort of spirit as well, it's not just a machine.

From the Sartar Companion: It carries within it the power to bring magical creation and return ‘life’ to deceased Dwarves and Mostali.

It's more than just a machine, its seems more spiritually capable than a GWD when I think on it based on the Sartar Companion description of abilities.

I'd argue more after looking at this that the GWD's may have been created by Mostal and Lokarnos together?

Also from the Sartar Companion: Our workforce is nearly restored to full capacity and our project has attained fifty four seventieths completion and for this we thank you.

It's not as quirky-fun as your An Encounter with a Dwarf writeup Jaja but it makes an attempt.

 

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

It's not as quirky-fun as your An Encounter with a Dwarf writeup

If you've purchased my Edge of Empire work, this will sound very familiar. 🙂 

[Erol of Backford]

So reading White Elves are of the sun and related to Yelmalio but are not longer. Makes me wonder if they were somehow the same as Gold Wheel Dancers and or were related on possibly congregated before the Dawn?

Something about the third seed of Flamal and it going up Yelmalio, Yelmdrya was born, mother of all plants on the Sun, as well as their collective soul. The White Elves are still a part of Yelmdrya though they are now gone from the world.

The great and pure forests at the top of the spike were white?

Does anyone recall White Elves?

Edited October 27, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[jajagappa]

28 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

So reading White Elves are of the sun and related to Yelmalio but are not longer. Makes me wonder if they were somehow the same as Gold Wheel Dancers and or were related on possibly congregated before the Dawn?

No, definitely not the same! White elves are plant folk. The reason they are no longer is they lived at the top of the Spike, and yes, the great forest at the top of the Spike was white.

Per the Earth Goddesses book, p.40: "The third of Flamal’s seeds was lifted up to Yelm, and Yelmdrya was born. Yelmdrya is the mother of all plants grown upon the Sun, as well as their collective soul. The white elves are still a part of Yelmdrya though they are now gone from the world."

Also p.92 regarding the Early Lesser Darkness, p.92: "Several discernible forest types are now evident: red, yellow, green, and white."

The Mythology book references the Fire Elves: "These elves are made of fire, as are the trees that cover the landscape." Unclear whether these are the same as the White Elves or not, though.

Personally, I like the idea that the White Elves are like living, crystalline trees that grow through accretion of Light, but perhaps there is other reference to what they and their forests are like.

[Ormi Phengaria]

5 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So reading White Elves are of the sun and related to Yelmalio but are not longer. Makes me wonder if they were somehow the same as Gold Wheel Dancers and or were related on possibly congregated before the Dawn?

Something about the third seed of Flamal and it going up Yelmalio, Yelmdrya was born, mother of all plants on the Sun, as well as their collective soul. The White Elves are still a part of Yelmdrya though they are now gone from the world.

The great and pure forests at the top of the spike were white?

Does anyone recall White Elves?

I think this is on the right track, though they are definitely not identical to the Gold Wheel Dancers. The more important connection shared by both is to the idea of the Silver People, to which the Gold Wheel Dancers might somehow be closer given that they sometimes shared the name.

[Erol of Backford]

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Fire Elves: "These elves are made of fire, as are the trees that cover the landscape."

Will assume they are separate but where are they, Hell maybe, around volcanoes?

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

White Elves are like living, crystalline trees that grow through accretion of Light

This makes sense but I am thinking they are more like Dyards possibly, able to be humanoid as well as the tree itself. Off the top of my head they could produce crystalline weapons that have something like liquid light instilled, sap made of light?

10 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

The more important connection shared by both is to the idea of the Silver People, to which the Gold Wheel Dancers might somehow be closer given that they sometimes shared the name.

Earlier in this thread, was thinking copper, silver, gold... not sure where it would go but will keep thinking on it...

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Will assume they are separate but where are they, Hell maybe, around volcanoes?

The Mythology book, Middle Lesser Darkness map (p.97) has both Fire and White elves immediately east of the Spike (with Fire Elves at its base). 

The Fire Elves might still exist in the Sky Realm if they spread out there. Otherwise, they might only be found now in Hell. (Not volcanoes, I think. Lodril and his child Oakfed seem rather hostile to the elves.)

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

This makes sense but I am thinking they are more like Dyards possibly, able to be humanoid as well as the tree itself.

If there are White Elves, there are "White" trees, whatever they are. And yes I'd expect there to be dryads. As with all elves, they are a Plant/forest people and don't live apart from their forest.