Switching from Humakt to Yanafal Tarnils

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, Monty Lovering said:

Sword breaker effects curved swords IMG as look at the compound word ‘curved sword’

I disagree with this. We can apply descriptions to so many things, and name them in so many ways, that it becomes irrelevant.

The "straight sword" thing is applicable because it's the actual shape of the Death rune, whereas kopeshes and scimitars are not. (so, yes, I'd have it that daggers break or bend too).

 

[svensson]

9 hours ago, Monty Lovering said:

Ok so YT and Humakt are not just different choices. They are hostile and YT is apostate to Humakt  

So that particular swap is world of pain for the H->Y. Sword breaker effects curved swords IMG as look at the compound word ‘curved sword’. RP are lost. Humakti knowing the YT is apostate will at best shun them. Quite possibly challenge them to a duel. They will however be welcomed by YT and maybe helped on the path to a heroquest to be able to use swords again  

YT->H is less bad. RP lost. Humakti will regard them in very high favour. YT will possibly treat them even worse than Humakti treat exHumakt YT apostates. 
 

I grew up a Jehovah’s Witness and know EXACTLY how people get treated by their friends and family if they are considered an apostate so this is very much a deep personal MGV. 

Well, Matt, as you can see by the arguments for and against here, this is very much a 'YGMV' sort of issue.

Me, I'm kind of a hardass about it. I see them as two gods having two cults serving two pantheons and manifesting different Runes and so you shouldn't be able to 'transfer' without consequences. I don't see them as enemies necessarily, but IMG Humakti hold YT's apostasy against him and his cult. And I'm also strongly opposed to 'cult shopping'... the notion that PC's ought to be able to join a cult and gain it's spells like stopping off at a bodega for a Slurpee and a pack of smokes. IMG, joining a cult isn't just 'ooh, I just got a badass spell!', it's joining a community and a hierarchy. Just because 'the examiners' didn't accept you for Rune status in one temple doesn't mean you can just go to another temple and try again.

Others see the very equivalent roles of Humakt and YT and think, 'why  not?'. They're a lot more casual about it because it suits their play style.

And either of these approaches are completely fine if they fit your particular table of players or internal vision of Glorantha.

I'm still gonna argue for my point of view, but that doesn't mean that anybody else is wrong. For that matter, it doesn't even mean I'm right.... loath as I am to admit it 😆

Edited August 10, 2022 by svensson

[JRE]

As it is too long, I will use YT for the god, and Yanafali for the worshippers.

In my opinion there are two different factors here. One is the Gods, and the other is the Cults. The Gods apparently are very similar, as YT is presented as Humakt 2.0. Humakt, after several fights and defeats (cheating according to the Humakti, good strategy according to the Yanafali), has recognized YT right to exist, assume part of his magic and use Death. IMG that means that Humakt has accepted that YT is actually one of his masks, so he can act as him, and use his magic, with some limitations and variations. That is the end of it, unless a powerful hero heroquests to withdraw Humakt's approval of YT, and as that was a Godquest, it probably needs a similar power level. YT did not follow Arkat's path as Humakt's son (a hero path), so that is why the Godquest would be to actually become Death.

That allows YT to protect his converts from Humakt's reprisal, with the condition or limitation of using only bent swords. As said above, a gift and a geas.

Swordbreaker works on scimitars, unless the holder is a YT worshipper. But most Yanafali now (except in active conversion areas, such as Sartar and the Holy Country) were never Humakt's worshippers, so they can use straight or curved swords with no difficulty. It would give a nice in-world feeling that if you are a Yanafali, ressurrection is needed to be introduced into the deepest secrets of the cult, but that also makes you subject to Swordbreaker, as at that level you must do as YT did, so become Humakt's worshipper, betray him, and only then become him by beating him. That beating him is what allows that so much of YTs magic is actually taken from Humakt.

The relationship of the Cults will vary a lot depending on the locale, so they are hostile in the southern border, and that is what most players are familiar with, but they are friendly and often almost interchangeable within the Lunar empire. IMG Humakt is functionally a subcult of YT in the Lunar Heartland, a more inflexible version but that gives you more powerful gifts, tougher geas and reuseable Sever Spirit. In Carmania the cults themselves symbolize the divide between lunarized and traditional Hazars, but that is more sibling rivalry than actual hostility. Outside the Empire in areas not hostile to it (Fronela, for instance), YT may be presented as Humakt's son, or captain, and Yanafali may be allowed to worship in Humakt's temples. In the Janube you might even find YT as a subcult of Humakt, introduced by Lunar missionaries. 

I have always felt, though that may be Arkat's influence again, that Humakti have a tendency to become involuntarily illuminated, because Death itself must be illuminated to be fair and true. 

"Who am I if I meet Humakt?"

"Dead."

"What must I do if I meet Humakt?"

"Fight, and die."

"Who am I if I beat Humakt?"

"Humakt."

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, JRE said:

In my opinion there are two different factors here. One is the Gods, and the other is the Cults. The Gods apparently are very similar, as YT is presented as Humakt 2.0. Humakt, after several fights and defeats (cheating according to the Humakti, good strategy according to the Yanafali), has recognized YT right to exist, assume part of his magic and use Death.

I fully agree

now saying it is a mask or not I don't know.

maybe in the "real" glorantha.

but until there is some Morgroth-like explaining that Humakt = YT, there is no worshipper (or very few) who believe / know that YT is a mask.

 

then :

- if that is "true" YT is a H-mask, and a worshipper is convinced (aka Morgroth) that he is a mask, it would open the door that "of course you can transfer the rune pool, it is the same !"

-if that is "wrong" there is a mask, OR a worshipper is not convinced that is a mask, the door is closed: "of course you cannot transfer the rune pool, they are not the same god !"

 

but I love your post @JRE, even if I don't share this point 🙂

 

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, JRE said:

IMG that means that Humakt has accepted that YT is actually one of his masks

That's a really huge leap!

In a way, it's almost the same as saying that since Orlanth defeated Yelm, then Orlanth is just another mask of Yelm... (and oh so many other examples)

[JRE]

Not really, because YT started as Humakt's worshipper and his aim was (IMG) to heal Humakt (the Carmanian version, darker and nastier than the one we know). When he found that Humakt was already illuminated and could not be healed (dying and ressurrecting in the process), the only choice was to make him change, by joining him. 

YT wanted to be Death from the beginning. That is his being. He changed Humakt by making himself part of him. Humakt accepted YT was part of Death (so part of him), in the same way as the other masks of Humakt. Which means for now there is a bit of the Moon in Humakt, at least till someone changes it...

Orlanth was not fire and did not want to make Yelm better, or to make himself like Yelm, so the comparison is not apt. But you can see the masks of Yelm in GRoY.

I would keep the mask thing mostly for the inner circles of both cults, but I am also sure that if you ask any of the gods they will confirm that YT is Humakt.

This is a tangent, but I think many gods in the third age contain mortal heroes that became masks of simpler, basic forces, and that they succeeded in defining the deity, and a more relatable deity means more human worshippers. Most of those changes happened in the first and second ages, but it is still ongoing now, and it is the basis of Lunar apotheosis, which is why Lunar deities build upon older deities, only better, according to the empire, of course.

So the Orlanth of the third age is a construct of storm deities and heroes, mostly from the first age, modified in the second, and made so human relatable because he is quite human. Including some heroines that became the Vinga mask and made him much more inclusive. All IMG, of course.

[JRE]

As for Runepools, when YT split I am sure his followers started new runepools, but after the Four Arrows of Light, converts could keep their runepools if they transferred from Humakt to YT.

Once YT apotheosized, it can be easy or hard, depending on the local cult. In areas where they are friendly, it may be as easy as spending one POW to join the other subcult. Where they are hostile, it will require a heroquest, so usually it is performed only by Swords or Scimitars that wish to keep their magic. 

From Humakt to YT, as said above, I would make the HQ be about beating Humakt, which will require one or several ressurrections. That will add the limitations in weapons I indicated above, but probably sldo qualify you for cultic mysteries.

From YT to Humakt, I would say that you only need Humakt to acknowledge you as one of his. Of course, if you were ressurrected at some point in the past, you will now die irrevocably. But you will die a Humakti, not a Yanafali. Otherwise, you will be welcome in Humakt's ranks, including taking your runepool with you, except for the associate Lunar deities. 

[Joerg]

Yanafal started out as a rebel against the system that had produced him. He got mixed up in a wild heroquesting conspiracy with the aim to get rid of the Carmanian overlords of which he was one. The success in incarnating Teelo Estara turned him from rebellion to religion, but also gave him a very mixed array of forces to lead into warfare.

He embraced Death when he exchanged his life for that of Teelo Estara, down in the deepest Hell beyond where others had trod, in a desperate attempt to regain his reincarnated goddess.

 

All of this is a very human background, a political one, rather than deeply rooted in death mysticism. That may have come after accepting Teelo Estara's death as his own, but it is a experience thoroughly different from what his Carmanian cult of Humakt the wasp-headed god of death held at its core.

Carmanian Humakt is probably the least Arkat-impressed variant of Humakt in Genertela. The Carmanian immigrants came from Talor's kingdom, as  dissidents against the Adalla dynastic takeover instituting Seshnegi-style Makanism. Their notion of Humakt (possibly related through the Bright Empire, possibly through a companion of Harmast, but certainly not by Arkat) probably does share the general outline of the Sword Story with the Theyalan Humakt we know since Cults of Prax.

Despite pretty nefarious deeds and feats, it looks like Yanafal was obsessed with honor.

 

I find that apostasy hullaballoo made by Theyalan Humakti towards Yanafal rather dishonest. Their Arkat-shaped cult probably outcompeted the previous one that had established itself in Prax in 35 ST. Many of them probably run the risk of being excluded from Carmanian temples as vile heretics if not outright apostates. How much would they care about a former Carmanian Humakti politically excommunicated and then outheroquesting the cult? The questions about the "betrayal" of Arkat are far from set in iron, either, at least IMG.

[JRE]

We probably will never know, but for me Yanafal Tarnils vision of Humakt was also affected by the barbarian version of Humakt, from Talastar or further south, and its obsession with honor, as compared with his own Carmanian version, and the disgust or even self-loathing that made him join Queen Deezola's conspiracy. Which, as you point out, makes Yanafal Tarnils cult resemble more the Orlanthi Humakt than the Carmanian Humakt, as he was rejecting the Carmanian culture.

 

[Monty Lovering]

14 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I disagree with this. We can apply descriptions to so many things, and name them in so many ways, that it becomes irrelevant.

The "straight sword" thing is applicable because it's the actual shape of the Death rune, whereas kopeshes and scimitars are not. (so, yes, I'd have it that daggers break or bend too).

 

To me it’s like Pascal’s wager. 

The idea that someone could believe in god ‘in case’ they exist is absurd as if one posits the existence of god then the idea it would be mollified by someone believing in them ‘in case’ is absurd. 

IMG the idea Humakt would say ‘oh hell you’re an apostate, but the long sharp-edged bladed weapon with a hand grip is definitely not a sword” is equally odd.

If it’s about the shape, then a sword with a non-cruciform hilt would equally be a get-out which reduces an extreme punishment for apostasy to a minor inconvenience. 

If you’re actually being really Bronze Age ish then cruciform swords were uncommon. 
 

So for me it’s the sword-ish ness not the cruciform-ish ness. 

[Jeff]

On 7/12/2022 at 7:59 AM, Godlearner said:

If a PC chooses to pick up the "other sword" and join Yanafal Tarnils cult, what changes if any will need to be made on the character sheet? Rune Pool? Worship skill? Gifts/Geases?

To join the Yanafal Tarnils cult, a Humakt initiate MUST LEAVE the Humakt cult (you cannot become the initiate of a Neutral cult - only Friendly and Associated). That triggers the Spirit of Reprisal. Their geases remain, and they cannot use a straight bladed sword (broadsword, etc.). Of course if one is Illuminated, then the Spirit of Reprisal cannot act.....

Regardless, the new initiate must create a new Rune Pool - Yanafal Tarnils is not Humakt but a different god. Same thing with worship skills.

[Jeff]

Just now, Jeff said:

To join the Yanafal Tarnils cult, a Humakt initiate MUST LEAVE the Humakt cult (you cannot become the initiate of a Neutral cult - only Friendly and Associated). That triggers the Spirit of Reprisal. Their geases remain, and they cannot use a straight bladed sword (broadsword, etc.). Of course if one is Illuminated, then the Spirit of Reprisal cannot act.....

Regardless, the new initiate must create a new Rune Pool - Yanafal Tarnils is not Humakt but a different god. Same thing with worship skills.

There is a reason after all that the Humakt cult has remained strong in the West Reaches and the Lunar Provinces. The cult is a useful source of soldiers, and since you can't just hop from Humakt to the 7 Mothers or Yanafal Tarnils, the Lunar Empire tolerates it (like it does with so many other cults).

[JRE]

If I understand right the cult affinity table is not only appropiate for Dragon Pass, but it applies all over Glorantha. So I am on my own if I consider that the Humakt cult and Yanafal Tarnils cult could be friendly in the Lunar Heartland or in the Janube valley.

I will suppose that does not extend when the names change, so we can still have Zorak Zoran and Humakt friendly in Fonrit.

[svensson]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

To join the Yanafal Tarnils cult, a Humakt initiate MUST LEAVE the Humakt cult (you cannot become the initiate of a Neutral cult - only Friendly and Associated). That triggers the Spirit of Reprisal. Their geases remain, and they cannot use a straight bladed sword (broadsword, etc.). Of course if one is Illuminated, then the Spirit of Reprisal cannot act.....

Regardless, the new initiate must create a new Rune Pool - Yanafal Tarnils is not Humakt but a different god. Same thing with worship skills.

THANK YOU!

This is what I've been saying all along.

The thing about Yanafal's cult is that it has access to the whole plethora of 7M magics... Magics that Humakt doesn't get access to. Contrary to a lot of expressed opinions, Humakt and YT are most assuredly NOT 'the same cult with Moon Rune on it'. They have separate mythologies, separate associations and links, separate hierarchies. What's more, they have separate godly agendas as well. YT is the defender of the Red Goddess, first foremost and always. Humakt's briefs are maintaining the barrier between Life and Unlife and the glorification of the profession of arms. He shares only the latter with YT.

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by svensson

[Jeff]

6 hours ago, JRE said:

If I understand right the cult affinity table is not only appropiate for Dragon Pass, but it applies all over Glorantha. So I am on my own if I consider that the Humakt cult and Yanafal Tarnils cult could be friendly in the Lunar Heartland or in the Janube valley.

I will suppose that does not extend when the names change, so we can still have Zorak Zoran and Humakt friendly in Fonrit.

Humakt and Yanafal Tarnils are Neutral towards each other. Humakt is the eternal god of Death and War. Yanafal Tarnils is a mortal who became a god by confronting Humakt and defeating him. Sure he was trained by Humakt - but having a hero that was taught by his opponent is pretty common (see the Mahabharata for plenty of examples).

The Twin Death Gods cult in Fonrit comes out of something entirely else than what is going on in the Lunar Empire.