fmitchell Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 (edited) Mostly for my own amusement, I'm throwing together some rules for golems and other constructed creatures in BRP, MRQ, and other d100-based games. So far I'm working on the following principles: Constructs do not have CON. Hit Points are determined using SIZ only, (SIZ + STR)/2, whichever is higher (to reflect that stronger constructs are generally denser), or a multiple based on construction materials.Constructs that can only follow orders have Fixed INT, like animals, albeit in the 8-12 range, and no APP (or CHA in MRQ2). Sapient constructs have regular INT, and (usually low) APP/CHA to gauge social aptitude.Constructs lack POW, unless they have "souls" or a presence on the Spirit Plane. Magical effects have a zero Power Point cost, use points from a built-in "battery" (similar to the ones in Equipment), or else have another limitation like "Always On" or charges.Constructs generally require no food, sleep, or air, and are immune to poisons and diseases. Technological constructs have optional rules for running on batteries.Constructs take Serious and Major Wounds without being stunned, distracted, or incapacitated. On the other hand, at HP 0 they cease functioning. If using hit locations, reaching -HP in an area automatically disables/destroys the limb hit. Disabling a construct's head does not necessarily destroy a construct unless it slices through a Golem's chem or a cyborg's brain; it will probably blind the construct, though. Destroying the chest, on the other hand, will destroy a construct, and abdomen hits will destroy a technological construct's power system. Golems, for example, have standard sizes which determine STR and SIZ. (DEX and INT are the same for all golems.) Armor points and hit points (as a multiple of SIZ) depend on the golem's construction: clay, stone, iron, bronze, wood on a metal armature, etc. For BRP SF and MRQ2 expeditions to barrier peaks, high tech androids and robots determine hit points from the greater of SIZ and (SIZ + STR)/2. Armor Points, STR, SIZ, INT, and DEX for non-sapient robots are fixed values based on the robot's intended purpose, while sapient "synthetic people" have randomly-determined stats and an CHA/APP score. (Full body replacement cyborgs, having one organic component, resemble sapient androids except that the brain has a low CON or Resilience used only when biological agents penetrate its life support system.) However, I'm pondering a few open questions: A man-sized stone figure ways way more than a man would. Should I base SIZ on physical dimensions or weight? Should Constructs just have dimensions and weight directly instead of size, like Elementals do? If so, how would I determine a Damage Bonus?Should I involve STR in HP calculation at all?Should Golem STR and DEX also vary by construction materials? (An old GURPS article does just that, with characteristically exhaustive lists of every possible material, from Adamant and Aluminum to PVC and Wool.)How should I scale STR generally? One document in the Downloads section gives Bronze Golems a STR of 25+/-4, while stats for a Terminator in another document use a STR of 60 to 100. (Generally, I want a single Golem to be a challenge to a group of PCs, and robots to have "sensible" scores based on SIZ and purpose. Artificial people and FBR Cyborgs, in particular, should be suitable for PCs in a high-powered high tech game.)Should golems, especially, have extra rules because they're made of solid material rather than fiddly technical parts? (The aforementioned Bronze Golems in the Downloads section downgrade all successes by one level, instead of having AP.)Does everything else above sound all right? Edited June 16, 2010 by fmitchell Quote Frank "Welcome to the hottest and fastest-growing hobby of, er, 1977." -- The Laundry RPG
seneschal Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 # A man-sized stone figure weighs way more than a man would. Should I base SIZ on physical dimensions or weight? Should Constructs just have dimensions and weight directly instead of size, like Elementals do? If so, how would I determine a Damage Bonus? # Should I involve STR in HP calculation at all? I'd say yes. Weight = the construct's density. So an NBA basketball star and Der Golem may both be 7'4" tall. But Der Golem will have a greater SIZ because its sheer mass is greater. Its Damage Bonus is calculated normally, STR+SIZ. CON+SIZ determines Hit Points. Again, Mister NBA star may come out on the short end of the stick; although he's a pro athlete, his CON (a general measure of health and toughness) may be less than that of a being made of animated ceramic or concrete. While I'm not sure that materials necessarily affect DEX and Move, Golems are traditionally depicted as being slow and deliberate. So Der Golem vs. NFL lineman = even match; Der Golem vs. NBA star = Mister Basketball will dance circles around the construct (but he'd better stay out of reach). The Big Gold Book, by the way, has a section devoted to robots and other "built" creatures. Quote
fmitchell Posted June 16, 2010 Author Posted June 16, 2010 Weight = the construct's density. Well, it's a function of density, anyway. Maybe I should start with the SIZ of a Ballistic Gel Golem, then multiply by the density of various materials. (I'm not sure how STR or DEX should change. Perhaps STR scales by the same factor, and DEX is inversely proportional to density?) CON+SIZ determines Hit Points. Normally, yes, but since I've decided Constructs have no CON, I'll have to use SIZ for total HP, or SIZ*2 for hit location HP lookup in MRQ2. If I base SIZ on weight, though, that makes more sense ... although there may be cases where the rules assume SIZ is proportional to volume, e.g. how easy a target is to hit. Maybe I should keep SIZ as it is, with a note that knockback and other mass-related rules should use original HP instead. Technological constructs aren't homogeneous, so I'll just use a constant factor to represent the average density of hydraulics, ceramics, steel, silicon, carbon fiber, and various forms of unobtainium. I'll also double-check the Gold Book for any additional advice on robots. Quote Frank "Welcome to the hottest and fastest-growing hobby of, er, 1977." -- The Laundry RPG
Chaot Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 Ya know, have you looked at the Ship Rules? There's some stuff there that could fold into constructs nicely. There was also golem information published in the Bronze Grimoire, but it's been a while since I've read that section. Quote 70/420
Guest Vile Traveller Posted June 17, 2010 Posted June 17, 2010 There was also a golem for RuneQuest published in White Dwarf a long time ago. I think it had a gorp sewn into its chest, IIRC. Quote
rust Posted June 17, 2010 Posted June 17, 2010 There was also a golem for RuneQuest published in White Dwarf a long time ago. And there is also this one: http://runequestwilderlands.blogspot.com/2010/04/new-creature-figure-of-earth.html Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan)
fmitchell Posted June 17, 2010 Author Posted June 17, 2010 Ya know, have you looked at the Ship Rules? There's some stuff there that could fold into constructs nicely. There was also golem information published in the Bronze Grimoire, but it's been a while since I've read that section. Sorry, which ship rules? I don't see any in the Gold Book or MRQ2, and I don't have any Stormbringer material. Having said that, I looked at the Mongoose Traveller rules for ships, drones, and robots. However, I don't like adding a whole new subsystem for golem (or even robot) combat, so I'll just use regular damage and hit locations. A few special rules, or rather rule exemptions: Golems don't stop if they take Serious or Major wounds, although once they hit 0 HP, they're gone. (If using hit locations, -HP in that location means it shatters or falls off automatically. Unless it's the head or chest, though, it will only slow them down.)Golems are not only clay (or stone, or metal), they're solid clay (etc.), so criticals and specials do no extra damage. In MRQ2, certain combat maneuvers just don't work (e.g. Bleed, Bypass Armor against its natural armor, Impale).Because they're solid, they have high AP. Clay golems have 6 AP, while Bronze/Iron golems have 12 AP and Stone Golems have 10 AP (based on the armor value of a boulder given on page 63 of MRQ2). Damaging a golem requires big blunt instruments like a war hammer; swords will lose their edge and arrows bounce off. BTW, to explain some of my design choices: I started with Skeletons in BRP, which have no CON and only token POW. (Curiously, robots in a later section have the full complement of characteristics, although the description states that POW is an internal energy source, not spiritual power. And there is also this one: http://runequestwilderlands.blogspot.com/2010/04/new-creature-figure-of-earth.html The "Figure of Earth" was really a special kind of Earth Elemental. I was aiming more for a robot created by magic (or alien technology, in some cases). Quote Frank "Welcome to the hottest and fastest-growing hobby of, er, 1977." -- The Laundry RPG
Chaot Posted June 17, 2010 Posted June 17, 2010 Sorry, which ship rules? I don't see any in the Gold Book or MRQ2, and I don't have any Stormbringer material. Yes, sorry. They're in Sailing on the Seas of Fate and White Wolf. When I have a chance I'll give a brief run down on them. Quote 70/420
rpgstarwizard Posted June 17, 2010 Posted June 17, 2010 for my Chitin critters, because of the fact they are tougher than most beings instead of averaging I had Siz plus con. Alot of what you have sounds good, tho Quote
Agentorange Posted June 17, 2010 Posted June 17, 2010 There was an old RQ3 supplement ( sorry, can't remember which one ) which dispensed with the whole notion of CON, HP and AP for constructs. It took the view that in effect the body of the Golem ( or whatever ) being solid also represented it's AP and it's CON. So to take a stone golem as an example, it had no CON and no HP, each location had 25AP which were also it's HP, so there was just one value ie 25 as opposed to two values 25/25 if you see what I mean. In order to destroy it you had to overcome the 25 value by damage. The location then reduced to 24 and so on and so forth. I haven't explained it particularly well but I think you can see what I'm driving at. I rather liked it. After all if you're an animated statue there is no divide between your armour and your body, both are literally rock hard, though I suppose you could put a suit of armour on over the statue.....My point being that the body of such a construct is so dense and tough that it is in it self a form of armour. Quote
fmitchell Posted June 18, 2010 Author Posted June 18, 2010 There was an old RQ3 supplement ( sorry, can't remember which one ) which dispensed with the whole notion of CON, HP and AP for constructs. It took the view that in effect the body of the Golem ( or whatever ) being solid also represented it's AP and it's CON. ... I rather liked it. After all if you're an animated statue there is no divide between your armour and your body, both are literally rock hard, though I suppose you could put a suit of armour on over the statue.....My point being that the body of such a construct is so dense and tough that it is in it self a form of armour. I'm not as keen; I'd rather have two separate values. Armor Points represent how hard it is to crack stone (clay, iron, whatever), whereas Hit Points represent how much stone you have to crack. They aren't correlated. As I mentioned above, I looked up the AP and HP of a boulder in the MRQ2 main book, since from a purely mechanical perspective it's an inanimate object. Then I guessed at the AP of Bronze, Iron, and Clay. Different sizes of golems have different HP, but the same AP. Maybe I should just post my working draft for Golems ... and Synthetics, my term for high tech robots, artificial intelligences, and full-body cyborgs. Quote Frank "Welcome to the hottest and fastest-growing hobby of, er, 1977." -- The Laundry RPG
soltakss Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 Merrie England: Age of Eleanor has Golems. They are made using Jewish magic and serve to protect important/pious Jews and the Jewish community. I can't remember off the top of my head how I did them, but they might have just had APs. They definitely have immunity to poison/disease/bleeding etc. It was written for RQM, so they would be slightly different for BRP. Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here.
Chaot Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 (edited) Hi fmitchell, So, the reason I referenced the Ship Rules is because of Hull Quality, Structure Points, and Sea Worthiness. Hull Quality is equivalent to Armor. It's intrinsic to the building of the vessel and doesn't change. It has to do with the builder's skill and could easily be expanded to include the material of the construct. Structure Points are equivalent to Hit Points. They represent how much damage the core structure can withstand before becoming useless. Sea Worthiness is somewhat similar to a for of Fatigue. A ship, or a construct, needs routine maintenance to operate at desired performance levels. In Sailing on the Seas of Fate, loss of Sea Worthiness means the ship starts taking on water. For a construct it could mean that it's skills start deteriorating. Regardless, I like the way your Golems are shaping up. I took out Bronze Grimoire, as they had some rules for 'Abominations,' but there's nothing their that would add to what you already have. Edit: To the point, I do like including an upkeep option for some forms of constructs. Edited June 19, 2010 by Chaot Quote 70/420
fmitchell Posted July 24, 2010 Author Posted July 24, 2010 (The thread's eyes glow red, and a stainless steel skeleton climbs from the wreckage ...) Sorry to necro this thread, but there's one more issue I'm fiddling with, especially with regards to high-tech constructs: how do I model a human-sized android that's more resilient -- and more dense -- than a human of the same size: Use a CON score, just like everything else. Duh.Set SIZ based on the comparable human, and give it extra armor to reflect its more durable structure.Set SIZ based on mass, with a note on actual dimensionsUse a split SIZ for height/mass: the Height SIZ determines Strike Rank (if used), and the Mass SIZ determines Hit Points and Strength Bonus. I favor option #4, maybe combined with #2. I'd prefer to add as few new rules as possible, to avoid confusing GMs and players alike. However, I might need different rules for different situations, e.g. golems made of solid stone or clay vs. technological androids made of titanium, plastic, carbon fiber, and more exotic materials. Quote Frank "Welcome to the hottest and fastest-growing hobby of, er, 1977." -- The Laundry RPG
fmitchell Posted July 24, 2010 Author Posted July 24, 2010 (Apologies for table formatting: even with CODE tags, formatting is too difficult.) Golems are animated clay statues approximately 2m high, constructed through magical or alchemical means. After constructing the statue to very exacting specifications, its builder gives it pseudo-life through a scroll placed in its head. Removing the scroll deactivates the golem. (Some makers place the scroll in the chest. Some variations inscribe holy words or symbols somewhere on its body.) Golems lack CON, POW, and CHA; HP are based on 2 * SIZ. Golems are immune to all effects resisted by Persistence or Resilience, and all forms of mind control. They have an INT score, reflecting their ability to understand speech and perform menial tasks, but golems can only follow directions. Since they never need food and never tire, they make ideal guards, laborers, or warriors. Golems are never stunned, distracted, or incapacitated by wounds to the limbs, chest, or abdomen. Being solid clay, no Combat Maneuver can increase damage against it. A Major Wound automatically destroys the location, but the golem suffers no other effects: it can continue on without a lower body, and sometimes without a head. Only destroying its scroll or inscription stops it. STR: 35 SIZ: 20 INT: 8 DEX: 10 Combat Actions: 2 Damage Modifier: +1D12 Movement: 6m Strike Rank: 13 D20 | Locations | AP/HP 1-3 | R. Leg | 6/8 4-6 | L. Leg | 6/8 7-9 | Abdomen | 6/9 10-12 | Chest | 6/10 13-15 | R. Arm | 6/7 16-18 | L. Arm | 6/7 19-20 | Head | 6/8 Typical Armor: Solid clay (AP 6), no penalties Traits: Dark Sight (no penalties), Formidable Natural Weapons, Homogeneous, Unliving Skills: Athletics 35%, Brawn 125%, Evade 16%, Perception 75%, Persistence n/a, Resilience n/a, Unarmed 75% Homogenous: Creature has no joints, organs, blood, or other vulnerable parts. The following Combat Maneuvers have no effect: Bleed, Bypass Armor (against its natural AP), Impale, Maximize Damage, and Sunder (against its natural AP). Unliving: Creature is immune to poison, disease, and fatigue. It does not need to breathe, eat, or sleep. It cannot heal on its own, and healing spells do not work; a Repair spell or a successful Craft test will repair damage. Weapons Type, Size, Reach, Weapon Skill, Damage, AP/HP Fist, S, T, 75%, 1D6+1D12, as for Arm Great sword, H, L, 50%, 2D8+1D12, 6/12 Great club, H, L, 50%, 2D6+1D12, 4/10 Great axe, H, L, 50%, 2D12+2, 4/10 Variations Other Sizes: STR, SIZ, and related attributes for clay golems of other sizes are given below. Height | 1m | 3m | 4m | 6m STR | 25 | 45 | 60 | 80 SIZ | 10 | 35 | 50 | 80 Damage Modifier | +1D4 | +2D6 | +2D10 | +3D8 Movement | 4m | 8m | 10m | 12m Strike Rank | 10 | 18 | 23 | 33 Adjusted HP per Location | -4 | +6 | +12 | +24 Materials other than Clay: Other materials are more or less dense than clay. The following chart provides adjustments to the statistics above: Armor Points, Movement, and a multiplier for SIZ. Calculate the Damage Modifier based on the new SIZ, but do not change the Strike Rank: the golem has changed mass, but not reach. Material | AP | SIZ Multiplier | Movement ----------------------------------------------------- Bronze | 12 | x 3 | 6m Iron | 12 | x 3 | 4m Gold | 4 | x 3 | 4m Stone | 10 | x 2 | 4m Wood & Metal | 4 | x 1 | 8m Sapient Golems: INT becomes 2D6+6, DEX 3D6. If magically active, add POW 3D6. Humanlike Golems: add CHA 3D6 and sapience (see above), and the golem can impersonate a human to some degree (perhaps with concealing clothing and a disguise). Specialized Golems: Some golems, especially sapient golems, might be built for specific tasks. For example: Companion: meant to "entertain" humans, generally given a female form. Humanlike and Sapient (see above), usually Wood and Metal construction, with SIZ 10, STR 12, and DEX 15. Advisor: advisor to rich and powerful, something like a walking computer. Sapient (see above), Medium, any construction, with INT 3D6+6. Some might build only a talking Brass Head: bronze construction, SIZ 10, no STR or DEX (use INT alone to determine Strike Rank), INT 2D6+12. Warrior: Specialized for combat. Use any base model, but increase DEX to 14. Some warrior models have been known to go berserk. Quote Frank "Welcome to the hottest and fastest-growing hobby of, er, 1977." -- The Laundry RPG
deleriad Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Necro thread alert, level 3. Just followed the link to this and I think you have a pretty good formulation here, especially in RQII terms. There are a few minor quibbles. I can imagine that Sunder would work (if the outer shell is glazed and therefore harder than the inner substance then you could sunder it) and bypass armour could still be narrated as finding a weak spot. Ditto Impale and maximise damage. I think the immunity to fatigue and stun effects is enough to recreate the idea. You could possibly also broaden it out by defining vital areas. E.g. a major wound to abdomen location might prevent it from using legs, major wound to head may destroy its senses and so on. In Gloranthan terms those rules would probably also work for the Mostali constructs like Jolanti. I wouldn't mind betting that if you expanded this a bit that it would get published in signs & portents. Quote
fmitchell Posted January 13, 2011 Author Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) I can imagine that Sunder would work (if the outer shell is glazed and therefore harder than the inner substance then you could sunder it) and bypass armour could still be narrated as finding a weak spot. Ditto Impale and maximise damage. The "Homogeneous" trait implies its the same substance all the way through: solid clay, solid iron, etc. It bends its limbs through magic. Think of a Ray Harryhausen animated statue. Sunder might weaken a hollow metal statue; a Wood & Metal armature might break on a Sunder or Impale. A related trait, "Unliving", describes a magically or technologically animated creature that does have joints, a hard shell protecting vulnerable innards, and so forth. BTW, I borrowed the terminology from GURPS. In that system, damage that penetrates armor is multiplied by a wounding factor: crushing x1, cutting x1.5, impaling x2, piercing x0.5 to x1.5 depending on size (mostly bullets). UPDATE: Correct errors: An "Injury Tolerance" advantage reduces damage from specific weapons and to specific hit locations, and takes multiple forms. Unliving means "not made of living flesh", e.g. undead or constructs, which reduces impaling and piercing damage. Homogeneous means no differentiated organs at all and severely reduced impaling and piercing damage, plus no special damage for reaching the brain or vitals. "Diffuse" creatures, like an air elemental or a micro-bot swarm, take only 1 points of damage from any piercing or impaling attack, and 2 points of damage maximum from other physical attacks except explosions or other area effects. Other forms include No Brain, No Eyes, No Head, No Neck, and No Vitals, which removes those hit locations and their effects, and No Blood, which removes bleeding damage, blood poisoning, and so forth. Edited January 14, 2011 by fmitchell correct GURPS explanation Quote Frank "Welcome to the hottest and fastest-growing hobby of, er, 1977." -- The Laundry RPG
Agentorange Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Necro thread alert, level 3. Just followed the link to this and I think you have a pretty good formulation here, especially in RQII terms. There are a few minor quibbles. I can imagine that Sunder would work (if the outer shell is glazed and therefore harder than the inner substance then you could sunder it) and bypass armour could still be narrated as finding a weak spot. Ditto Impale and maximise damage. I think the immunity to fatigue and stun effects is enough to recreate the idea. You could possibly also broaden it out by defining vital areas. E.g. a major wound to abdomen location might prevent it from using legs, major wound to head may destroy its senses and so on. In Gloranthan terms those rules would probably also work for the Mostali constructs like Jolanti. I wouldn't mind betting that if you expanded this a bit that it would get published in signs & portents. Or if you went for a BRP version offer it to Nick for Uncounted Worlds Inspired by all this Golem related talk I ordered this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Man-Made-Monsters-Patchwork-Homunculi-Creatures/dp/1601631367/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294962705&sr=1-4 It arrived late today so I haven't had a chance to look at it prpoerly yet, but at a quick glance it seems quite interesting. Quote
NickMiddleton Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 Or if you went for a BRP version offer it to Nick for Uncounted Worlds... Yes please! Nick Quote
pansophy Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I would love to see these rules summarised in the next Uncounted Worlds Magazin! Quote My Uploads - BRP and new: Revolution D100
fmitchell Posted January 20, 2011 Author Posted January 20, 2011 I would love to see these rules summarised in the next Uncounted Worlds Magazin! Yes please! OK, I'll try to carve out some time to convert to BRP and generally clean up. Do you also want my notes on robots, androids, and full body replacement cyborgs? Quote Frank "Welcome to the hottest and fastest-growing hobby of, er, 1977." -- The Laundry RPG
NickMiddleton Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 OK, I'll try to carve out some time to convert to BRP and generally clean up. Do you also want my notes on robots, androids, and full body replacement cyborgs? Yes please, that would be very cool. Cheers, Nick Quote
fmitchell Posted June 24, 2011 Author Posted June 24, 2011 Sorry to necro this thread, but I've uploaded the current draft of "Constructs in BRP", based upon this thread. Please take a look, and send me any questions, complaints, suggestions, or extravagant praise. Quote Frank "Welcome to the hottest and fastest-growing hobby of, er, 1977." -- The Laundry RPG
pansophy Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Hi Frank, I added some comments to the File but will repeat them here. I recently pulled out your document to create some Robots for my Darwins Earth campaign. So here's my 2 cents for Robots: One could introduce the POW characteristic to simulate the constructs programming and if it will do things that mean certain death for the robot (e.g. jumping over a cliff, jumping in harms way to protect a human being, etc.) or at least a potential serious damage. CON could simulate how well protected a robots internal systems are and how many redundant systems are available. Maybe you can add something like this as optional rules? Would be very cool. And I do like the .rtf file, it allows me to make it a shiny PDF Thanks! Quote My Uploads - BRP and new: Revolution D100
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