Androgeus och Jaldon

[Soccercalle]

Androgeus seems to be the super hero that we knows the least about. The Guide says that he/she has been around since the Greater Darkness and been reborn a lot of times.

Someone called "Goldtooth" is mentioned as one of his/her children. Is that the same person as Jaldon Goldentooth?

[David Scott]

This maybe of interest

and 

https://basicroleplaying.org/search/?q=androgeous&quick=1

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

Someone called "Goldtooth" is mentioned as one of his/her children. Is that the same person as Jaldon Goldentooth?

Probably, I don't see why not.

 

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

Someone called "Goldtooth" is mentioned as one of his/her children. Is that the same person as Jaldon Goldentooth?

My sense of this has evolved since that 2017 thread. So, thank God, has my style!

I think the canonical children of Androgeus listed in WBRM are more like in-crowd references or jokes than anything intrinsic to Gloranthan reality, which means that if you're exploring their nature in play, you're approaching the fringes of the world itself. The answers should be strange, confusing, a little cosmic and maybe even contradictory.

Now this particular flavor does not pair well with what a lot of people like about Jaldon, but if you want to run with it on your own, it might be fun to highlight the apocalyptic psychedelic metal album cover aspects of ruined Prax and the Plateau of Statues, emphasizing the strangeness around Jaldon in order to find a better fit with the mysteries of Androgeus. Jaldon may be very different when he's with his "family" than he is from his cultists' perspective. Perversely, you might look for the other known children first and worry about Goldtooth later.

[soltakss]

8 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Now this particular flavor does not pair well with what a lot of people like about Jaldon, but if you want to run with it on your own, it might be fun to highlight the apocalyptic psychedelic metal album cover aspects of ruined Prax and the Plateau of Statues, emphasizing the strangeness around Jaldon in order to find a better fit with the mysteries of Androgeus. Jaldon may be very different when he's with his "family" than he is from his cultists' perspective. Perversely, you might look for the other known children first and worry about Goldtooth later.

Yes, to me, Jaldon Goldentooth is a nutter of the first order. Banished from Prax by the EWF, regarded as a holy prophet of the Praxians, fanatical leader of the Praxian Horde, he has Religious Maniac written all over him.

[scott-martin]

6 minutes ago, soltakss said:

nutter of the first order

Not just a mystic . . . not just a crazed mystic. A crazed dental mystic.

EDIT also he could be adopted. maybe all the children of Androgeus come to the family in noteworthy ways.

Edited July 22, 2022 by scott-martin

[Joerg]

Jaldon's early history is framed in a bit of weirdness. Pavis GTA (quoting the RQ2 Pavis material) says

Quote

Jaldon was born among the Wastes around 890 (give or take a decade), in a bison tent.

The tribes roaming the Wastes rather than ancestral Prax was of course a consequence of the return of the Pure Horse Folk after Joraz Kyrem retook the city of Pavis from Thog the giant and his troll and jolanti allies. (The jolanti may have been those liberated by Gonn Orta in Nida around 562.)

"in a bison tent" doesn't necessarily mean "as a bison rider". His mother may have been a slave taken from the refugees from Pavis, possibly a zebra or Pure Horse woman, or possibly a pregnant visitor at the Bison Rider camp, possibly from the Paps (a priestess, or a woman of her entourage). His father could have been a Waha khan, given his acceptance as khan later on, but again need not have been a bison khan. Maybe even the Paps khan before having to leave sacred Prax.

Jaldon's (almost? completely?) skeletal steed "Home" doesn't resemble any extant beast of Eiritha. The image on his Dragon Pass boardgame counter resembles a ram's skull. While unknown as a Praxian beast, there were sheep-descended draconic beasts in Dragon Pss which miay have grown to this extraordinary size

[jajagappa]

On 7/22/2022 at 4:38 PM, Joerg said:

"in a bison tent" doesn't necessarily mean "as a bison rider". His mother may have been a slave taken from the refugees from Pavis, possibly a zebra or Pure Horse woman, or possibly a pregnant visitor at the Bison Rider camp, possibly from the Paps (a priestess, or a woman of her entourage). His father could have been a Waha khan, given his acceptance as khan later on, but again need not have been a bison khan. Maybe even the Paps khan before having to leave sacred Prax.

If someone really likes the Androgeus link then she might have been the pregnant visitor at the Bison Rider camp, or he might have impregnated a Bison Rider Eiritha priestess.  As Androgeus has been "the eternal servant of suffering people", and Bison Riders in the Wastes in the 2nd Age may well have been one of those, then this birth might have been a way to balance their suffering.

Note: personally, I think the two are distinct as the Androgeus text in GtG p.642 states "Her children are too many to name, but five are well-known: The Preserver, the Twisted Horse, Goldtooth, Wily Joker, and Yellow Bear. The agonies which they inflicted upon mortals since the Dawn are hideous and innumerable."  My reading of this is that these five are among those nine born in the Godtime and who continue to appear after the Dawn, but it could be read differently as Jaldon has certainly inflicted agonies upon mortals since his birth which is after the Dawn.

[Akhôrahil]

On 7/22/2022 at 10:38 PM, Joerg said:

there were sheep-descended draconic beasts in Dragon Pss which miay have grown to this extraordinary size

Wait what?

[Akhôrahil]

On 7/24/2022 at 3:50 PM, jajagappa said:

Yellow Bear.

Speaking of unexpected possible identifications, there’s a Yellow Bear of Jonatela.

[jajagappa]

20 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Speaking of unexpected possible identifications, there’s a Yellow Bear of Jonatela.

And there's a Yellow Bear referenced by the Half-bird in the document included in WF15.

Plus there's the Yellow Bear Inn along the Royal Road south from Wilmskirk towards Whitewall.

[Darius West]

On 7/23/2022 at 1:51 AM, Soccercalle said:

Androgeus seems to be the super hero that we knows the least about. The Guide says that he/she has been around since the Greater Darkness and been reborn a lot of times.

Someone called "Goldtooth" is mentioned as one of his/her children. Is that the same person as Jaldon Goldentooth?

For a Gloranthan superhero, Androgeus keeps something of a low profile in the lore.

I remember reading that Androgeus had quite a few children and they were all powerful but, essentially deeply unpleasant and violent.  I have always assumed that Jaldon Goldentooth was one of them based on the quote that has been raised.  There is a fair chance that Sheng Seleris (Twisted Horse?) was too, but that it less certain.  This means that Androgeus may spend time in the Wastes and Pent.  

We also know from the Dragon Pass wargame that Androgeus sides with the Tarsh Exiles when they push to control the Dragon Pass region and destroy both Sartar and the Lunars.  Now this was likely done to provide the Tarsh Exile faction with a Superhero, but we now need to make this outcome lore friendly.  Clearly Androgeus chooses to throw in with the Tarsh Exiles, even against Jaldon Goldentooth who is likely Androgeus' own son, but why?  

Lets just say that Androgeus is a very ambiguous figure and has motives that are hard to fathom.  The Lunars think Androgeus came from a hell, while others think the Mostali made Androgeus and then cast them aside. It should also be pointed out that Androgeus is pretty old and allegedly was born in the Great Darkness, but then we read that Androgeus walked on the slopes of the Spike, which is impossible, as the Great Darkness pretty much begins with the destruction of the Spike.  The only way for both things to be true would be if Androgeus was actually a child of the Celestial Court on the Spike, who somehow survived the calamity.  Or Androgeus is fibbing...

Interestingly, the Kerofini, who form the core of the Tarsh Exiles regard Androgeus as a Sky Captain, which is a bit more flattering than some assumptions people tend to make.

There isn't a lot of art for Androgeus.  I think this comes from the Gods of Glorantha boardgame:

Edited July 26, 2022 by Darius West

[Joerg]

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Wait what?

There is a maybe two page travelogue about the EWF at the height of its power where these draconized versions of typical Heortling husbandry were mentioned. These beasts as well as the new improved crops raised by the EWF were highly dependent on the Dragon's Dream, though, the Proximate Holy Realm summoned by the EWF leaders through calling in worship from all the lands under their authority. After the "mass utuma" of 1042, causing the death of all Dragonspeakers, that Dragon's Dream dissipated quickly, leaving the crops to rot (whether on the the fields or in the granaries) and the beasts to grow sickly and die off, IMG.

That fate wasn't shared by the creatures made in Remakerely, though, and those mad geniuses might have transformed such a draconized sheep into a steed for Prax at a whim, or as a custom job.

Is that the case IMG? I don't know. Jaldon has yet to confront my gaming outside of the hex-based board games.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

There is a maybe two page travelogue about the EWF at the height of its power where these draconized versions of typical Heortling husbandry were mentioned.

What's the source for this please.

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

There isn't a lot of art for Androgeus.  I think this comes from the Gods of Glorantha boardgame:

That's Androgeus' character sheet for Last Faction Hero, which was available on itch.io for a while. A game of maneuvering a vertical map of Glorantha.

Androgeus features in Sandy Petersen's Gods War boardgane as one of the Cosmic Monsters, striding across a devastation in a menacing pose. So, the one in the middle, if you need the pointer:

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is a maybe two page travelogue about the EWF at the height of its power where these draconized versions of typical Heortling husbandry were mentioned.

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

What's the source for this please.

The Glorious Cities of the Dragons, from Middle Sea Empire p.49.

The author of the travelogue starts with the strange effect the draconic Proximate Holy Realm had on his logical thinking and memory, the way that reality itself was shifting as inside a dream. He then describes the countryside:

Quote

The lands between cities have some of that incertitude, but much less. In general the hilly lands are pleasant, with many herds of strange sheep or bovines grazing under the watchful eyes of their keepers. Wide fields are plowed by farmers guiding oxen so strong that a mere pair suffices for the work. They raise grains that they call velt and kreet, similar to those outside the land but different. I’ve seen none of them beyond the borders of Kerofinela, and have been unable to acquire any to export. When I tried to secret some away they molded into a putrid slime in my pocket and packet. Yet, when eaten there they are tasty, hearty and sublime.

Now compare this with Jeff's history of the Proximate Holy Realm from January 2022 on the Well of Daliath:
https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/heroquesting-the-proximate-holy-realm/

The reason why the author's velt and kreet declined so terribly was that they were taken out of the "field" of the Dragon's Dream.

The beasts have mythical qualities, and one mythical quality of rams and sheep is superior size (e.g. allowing people to ride them).

Why should Jaldon ride a weird beast? Possibly because his mother came with it to the bisons, and left it for her son. Naming the steed "Home" might be an orphan's main anchor to their identity.

 

 

[JRE]

From a storytelling point of view, I agree that being Androgeus son would fit with his role as a scourge of the world, but I would have him getting nothing from his parents. It is more heroic, it fits with what we know of Androgeus, and it fits with a pan-praxian hero to have a mount that is not one of the known beasts, and yet is accepted by Eiritha as one of hers. It would make it easier for the tribes to accept his leadership. A recovered green age remnant, most likely.

I also would expect that during the first part of his career it was a living beast, proof of his heroism and the support of the goddess, but his deaths and returns have taken a toll in both of them. Yet it is tied to his destiny, so it always returns, even if now it is just a bag of bones.

[jajagappa]

On 7/26/2022 at 1:39 AM, Darius West said:

Clearly Androgeus chooses to throw in with the Tarsh Exiles, even against Jaldon Goldentooth who is likely Androgeus' own son, but why?  

First, because the Tarsh Exiles are suffering (i.e. likely arrives during the reign of Mularik Ironeye).

Two, because she falls in love with one of the Twins, and he falls in love with the other.  Thus, both of Androgeus' forms are satisfied (for a time).