Agriculture as Civilization, or “We were all herdmen, once”

[mfbrandi]

25 minutes ago, moonwolf8 said:

Interestingly enough this is the hypothesis of Zecharia Sitchin in his Earth Chronicles series.

I think he just nicked it from Mesopotamian religion whose “basic operating premise … is that humans were created and placed on earth so the gods did not have to work” (Tammi j. Schneider, An Introduction to Ancient Mesopotamian Religion). The flying saucers he nicked from somewhere else.

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Is there current canon on who their parents are?

Within the modern monomyth (aka Belintar orthodoxy) they're the daughters of Gata and Genert, which implies a secret story behind the origin of agriculture as opposed to other expressions of Earth Rune. But other people might recollect it differently.

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Within the modern monomyth (aka Belintar orthodoxy) they're the daughters of Gata and Genert, which implies a secret story behind the origin of agriculture as opposed to other expressions of Earth Rune. But other people might recollect it differently.

And by extension, Pamalt as father for the southern goddesses. The ancestry of Britha, whoever takes care of Jrustela, and whatever you find on Teleos and further east remains unclear.

Seshna might be somewhat different, too - in the recent genealogical chart, she is the only serpent-tailed of the land goddesses.

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

I write as a provocation from what I imagine to be a Hsunchen perspective, because I think we read too much about the perspective of the colonial and imperialist cultures in Glorantha, and I think that distorts our perception of the world.

Oh, ok... Cool, I like it!

[Darius West]

On 8/12/2022 at 12:30 AM, mfbrandi said:

Academia.edu is a useful and legitimate source of stuff likely of interest to some Gloranthaphiles.

This — from The Oxford Handbook of Cuneiform Culture — dropped into my inbox today:

    “Agriculture as Civilization: Sages, Farmers, and Barbarians”
     Frans Wiggermann

Even if that doesn’t fascinate, it quotes from a “Sumerian disputation”, Ewe and Wheat, which might find in-game use:

     The people of those distant days...(etc.)
 

It must be said that Ewe and Wheat does make a bit of an intellectual assumption about hunter-gatherers being a pack of lack-wits, which we know simply wasn't true, especially as they were responsible for Gobekli Tepe and other sites, even with only a hunting and gathering economy.

We also know that the adoption of agriculture had more to do with rising populations creating food pressure than any idea of a better lifestyle and more free time.  Most Hunter-gatherers would likely spend a tiny proportion of their day obtaining food in comparison to agriculturalists, who were all but state slaves if you stop and consider their back breaking labor and taxation to a largely uncaring central authoritarian government.  Of course everyone likes to imagine that they are better than other people, and so agriculturalists imagine slack-jawed hunter-gatherers who are little more than herd beasts.

Now lets consider this in relation to Glorantha.  Even in the Green Age, there is the assumption that humans and beasts were of similar intelligence.  The difference is that it is assumed that the beasts were smarter back then, not that humans were more stupid.  They stupefying of the animals comes later as a result of the Lesser and Greater Darkness, when certain gods are broken or enslaved or form covenants that stupefy their descendants.  Obviously by the Golden Age, agriculture is in full swing across Glorantha with Yelm ruling everything, but back then even the animals are not "herdman stupid".

I like the fact that “Agriculture as Civilization: Sages, Farmers, and Barbarians” deals with Oannes the Fish man, who according to legend brought agriculture and other blessings to humanity in ancient Sumer.  I first bumped into him while researching for Call of C'thulhu and said "jackpot!".  He's a lot like the goddesses Wheat and Ewe discussed in the Ewe and Wheat disputation you provided, and by that I mean he's a "culture hero"; a figure who comes and introduces a technology that changes everything.  It is interesting that Glorantha doesn't have a lot of immediately obvious culture heroes, but when you look a bit harder, they are there, you just have to read between the lines a little.

[svensson]

There is no way of living that is better or worse than any other, save of course for criminality.

Hunter/gatherers are no more 'free' than agriculturalists inasmuch as they are both slaves to weather, disaster, deterioration of natural conditions because of an imbalance of the natural cycles that have nothing to do with the presence of Man.

For that matter, let's not over glamorize  indigenous peoples as living in some idyll like eff'ing Adam and Eve, shall we? Natives aren't born with an innate and 'natural' understanding of the balance of nature and their role in it. Indigenes over-predated areas, suffered sickness and diseases easily cured by modern medicine, warred for no other reason than the enemy was 'somebody else' and made every one of the mistakes that settled people do. They are and were no more virtuous than anyone else for all the mythological 'simplicity' of their lives.

Mind you, this DOES NOT mean that I disrespect any indigenous culture or people. I just don't mythologize them as automatically having a 'better way' to live than anyone else. They're people... human beings... who make mistakes and suffer all the faults and foibles of the human condition. You can find wisdom in everybody's culture. You can also find mistakes. Real wisdom is sorting out the truth from the errors and applying those truths no matter where you find them.

Last thing on this subject: there's a lot of 'off the grid' envy out there nowadays where people decide that they don't want to live in society and head out into the boonies to homestead. That's fine as far as it goes, but most are complete hypocrites about it. You see these TV shows where people want to 'go primitive' but they're still completely covered in the products of the society they claim to reject... from wool flannel shirts, to GoreTex coats, to blue jeans and work boots. And that's not even getting into the high carbon steel tools, plastic buckets, copper wiring, glass windows and the rest of it. Look, if you want to go find your inner Cro-Magnon feel free to do that but until you're wearing buckskins made from the skin of your last meal and fabrics made of raw flax and hunting with knapped-stone weapons you made yourself from absolutely nothing but local sources, you're just a poser who just doesn't like to be around other people. You remember that idiot, Christopher McCandless who starved himself to death in Alaska because he wanted to live outside of society but didn't have the slightest idea of how to survive living off the land in Alaska -- and refused help when it was offered? There's absolutely nothing sympathetic or idealistic in such a death. It's not even a tragedy. Yeah, that clown literally died because of a terminal case of The Stupids.

[Brian Duguid]

6 minutes ago, svensson said:

Hunter/gatherers are no more 'free' than agriculturalists inasmuch as they are both slaves to weather, disaster, deterioration of natural conditions because of an imbalance of the natural cycles that have nothing to do with the presence of Man.

Most hunter/gatherer peoples were nomadic, so had the ability to do more about these issues than the agriculturalists, simply by relocating, which just wasn't an option for settled peoples. Indeed several of the early farming communities in West Asia failed, and returned to the hunter/gatherer lifestyle precisely because it was easier to survive in smaller, more mobile groups. And there is ample anthropological evidence that hunter/gatherer communities have less authoritarian cultures than others, and found the submission to authority in agricultural neighbours difficult to comprehend. So while we can accept that there are no absolutes, it's hard not to imagine Gloranthan cultures feeling likewise, especially as it's already written into the official lore.

Those Dawn Age histories of Theyalan missionaries bringing the "good news" of the Lightbringer cults to the heathens in the forests read very much like IRL evangelical missionaries and colonisers. Complete with genocidal massacres of "primitive" peoples (the Kivitti etc), even down to deliberate destruction of their cultures and religions (the imprisonment of the Tawari bull gods, and that people's conversion to the culture of the victors). These are good things: they make Gloranthan history credible, and sow seeds for ongoing conflict and story.

15 minutes ago, svensson said:

For that matter, let's not over glamorize  indigenous peoples as living in some idyll like eff'ing Adam and Eve, shall we? Natives aren't born with an innate and 'natural' understanding of the balance of nature and their role in it. Indigenes over-predated areas, suffered sickness and diseases easily cured by modern medicine, warred for no other reason than the enemy was 'somebody else' and made every one of the mistakes that settled people do. They are and were no more virtuous than anyone else for all the mythological 'simplicity' of their lives.

Sure, but in Glorantha what people believe matters, it comes from their myth, and it determines their reality. The Hsunchen consider agriculture taboo. Why? Like all Gloranthan peoples, they see their lifestyle as mythically correct. I think it's far more interesting to have the indigenous people in Glorantha having myths about a fall from paradise; to have the close relationship to their natural environment that follows from being able to talk directly to nature spirits; etc. They have fertility, healing and curative magic. IRL there's ample evidence that many indigenous cultures did (and do) live amidst relative abundance with an excess of leisure time compared to "civilised" people; it would defy rationality to imagine that similar cultures in Glorantha don't have the same blessings.

 

21 minutes ago, svensson said:

Last thing on this subject: there's a lot of 'off the grid' envy out there nowadays where people decide that they don't want to live in society and head out into the boonies to homestead. That's fine as far as it goes, but most are complete hypocrites about it. You see these TV shows where people want to 'go primitive' but they're still completely covered in the products of the society they claim to reject... from wool flannel shirts, to GoreTex coats, to blue jeans and work boots. And that's not even getting into the high carbon steel tools, plastic buckets, copper wiring, glass windows and the rest of it. Look, if you want to go find your inner Cro-Magnon feel free to do that but until you're wearing buckskins made from the skin of your last meal and fabrics made of raw flax and hunting with knapped-stone weapons you made yourself from absolutely nothing but local sources, you're just a poser who just doesn't like to be around other people.

I'm struggling to see the relevance of this. Modern indigenous peoples use clothing and other technology from their industrialised neighbours. Gloranthan Hsunchen work for or rob neighbours to get what they want. In real history, there are many examples of "civilised" peoples going to live with the "savages" precisely because their encounters taught them that they had an easier, less stressful, less anxious life, with less obvious political oppression. They happily sacrificed the supposed merits of modern life to gain that. And I doubt very much they don't like to be around other people - they sought comfort amongst a different community. In Glorantha, the Hsunchen have a specific mechanism to welcome refugees from other cultures: an adoption ritual.

A good book on this from the anthropological perspective is "The Dawn of Everything" by David Graeber and David Wengrow.

[svensson]

1. Hunter/Gatherer cultures were 'nomadic' only until they ran up on a natural barrier they couldn't cross or another people who wouldn't let them cross. And most H/G societies got VERY nervous traveling into an area where they didn't know the plants and game pattern. They DID have borders, just not national ones.

2. I take your point insofar as Glorantha is concerned. However, theism is a more powerful and effective magic than spiritualism is, especially since most theist worshipers have access to that powerful magic at a lower level than Spirit Magic users. H/G's are at a distinct disadvantage in this situation. Some H/G cultures have become sophisticated enough to hold the line against theists [Pralorela and Rathorela for example], but that just slows the conversion rate to theism. Every year more youngsters initiate into 'foreign gods' rather than local spirits. These youngsters go out into the wide world and return later with marvelous tales and useful items that convince the next generation to try it. It is only the provable and manifest presence of effective Shamanistic magic that keeps most of the curious at home.

3. Trade with Europeans was as much a detriment to the Native American tribes as smallpox was, just slower. It led to a degradation of their cultures as many tribesmen absolutely NEEDED goods from European sources to give away in potlaches. If you can get a steel knife, wool blankets and bright beads from Walks Tall at his feast, you're going to ignore Fire-In-His-Eye's feast that only has skins and flints. Introducing widespread greed killed as many Natives as firewater did, and nobody's found a cure for that yet.

[Brian Duguid]

6 hours ago, svensson said:

1. Hunter/Gatherer cultures were 'nomadic' only until they ran up on a natural barrier they couldn't cross or another people who wouldn't let them cross. And most H/G societies got VERY nervous traveling into an area where they didn't know the plants and game pattern. They DID have borders, just not national ones.

There were also clearly plenty who migrated IRL, or we would not be able to have this conversation. Glorantha looks pretty "filled-up", but it's less than two millennia after people expanded from very small pre-Dawn populations. There will have been plenty of migration pre-Dawn, and adaptation to new habitats. Since the Dawn, the Telmori are the most notable migrators, but all the Fronelan tribes will have been pushed further north (at least twice). The territory of the Manirian tribes changed markedly because of flooding.

6 hours ago, svensson said:

2. I take your point insofar as Glorantha is concerned. However, theism is a more powerful and effective magic than spiritualism is, especially since most theist worshipers have access to that powerful magic at a lower level than Spirit Magic users. H/G's are at a distinct disadvantage in this situation. Some H/G cultures have become sophisticated enough to hold the line against theists [Pralorela and Rathorela for example], but that just slows the conversion rate to theism. Every year more youngsters initiate into 'foreign gods' rather than local spirits. These youngsters go out into the wide world and return later with marvelous tales and useful items that convince the next generation to try it. It is only the provable and manifest presence of effective Shamanistic magic that keeps most of the curious at home.

Theist societies in Glorantha have an advantage of technology but not necessarily of magic. Top-level shamans are some seriously scary shit, hence the initial success of the White Bear Empire and before that the Eleven Beasts Alliance, showing what they can do when they work in concert. And it's not a clear-cut difference anyway: many of the Hsunchen tribes follow Lightbringer or other theist cults alongside their traditional ways, and have access to additional magic through local Spirit cults over and above their ancestral tradition. I'm not sure there is any evidence in canon to suggest that "every year more youngsters initiate into foreign gods than local spirits". That doesn't explain why there remain traditional Mraloti even amongst a much larger population of semi-traditional boar-worshippers, and the larger still population of mixed Entruli / Theyalan descendants. A visceral loathing for the way-of-life they can see amongst their neighbors is a credible explanation, and more likely than that the curious just stay at home.

In the real world, there remain over 100 "uncontacted" indigenous tribes (i.e. known mainly from evidence such as sightings from the air), even today. And our dominant culture has vastly superior technology for traveling to, locating, and killing the indigenes, relative to the magic and technology gap within Glorantha. Even in modern times, people have left civilisation to go and live permanently with "traditional" peoples. People are motivated by more than just their view of what is more "powerful", as is evident even in the West where large numbers would prefer to adhere to their "primitive superstitions" than avail themselves of modern medicines such as vaccines. Customs and myth will remain strong motivators amongst the Hsunchen, as with all Gloranthan peoples. It's not the weakness of the Lunar Empire that makes Orlanthi barbarians struggle to resist what is evidently a superior and more enlightened civilisation.

In The Children of Hykim, I've specifically addressed the inevitable conflict between the pro-contact and anti-contact factions in Hsunchen society. These strands are an obvious source of narrative interest.

Take the words of the Wendat chief Kondiaronk quoted here, and put them in the mouth of a Rathori chieftain. I will quote in part below, with amendments. As Glorantha is a fantasy world, I choose to grab hold of the Hsunchen as a way to understand that society as Westerners perceive it is not inevitable, and that other ways of life are not just possible but desirable. And in doing so I'm not departing from canon in any way, just unpicking what is already there.

Quote

Kondiaronk (with amendments): I have spent 6 years reflecting on the state of Loskalmi society and I still can’t think of a single way they act that is not inhuman and I generally think this can only be the case as long as you stick to your distinctions of “mine” and “thine.” I affirm that what you call “money” is the devil of devils, the tyrant of the Loskalmi, the source of all evils, the bane of souls and slaughterhouse of the living. To imagine one can live in the country of money and preserve one’s soul is like imagining one can preserve one’s life at the bottom of a lake. Money is the father of luxury, lasciviousness, intrigues, trickery, lies, betrayal, insincerity—of all the world’s worst behavior. Fathers sell their children, husbands their wives, wives betray their husbands, brothers kill each other, friends are false—and all because of money. In light of all of this, tell me that we Rathori are not right in refusing to touch or so much as look at silver.

[mfbrandi]

[deleted]

Edited August 19, 2022 by mfbrandi
just noise

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

Theist societies in Glorantha have an advantage of technology but not necessarily of magic. Top-level shamans are some seriously scary shit,

Just being pedantic, and you mention it anyway (but not to the full credit deserved) - yes, top level shamans are scary shit... but those are few and far between (and yes, so too are the Rune Priests, although I'd suggest a few more God Talkers).

However, initiates in the various theistic cults have similar spell access to the tribes who need to go to the shaman for their spells (granted, some limits, especially with some cults), AND they have a bit of god magic to back them up. So, what I'm saying is that the average tribal member in a theist culture has a bit more magic than the average tribal member in the spirit traditions.

Add to that that while you are correct in that spirit traditions can access Rune magic, it is usually a lot more limited than standard theist practices.

This, in some ways, gets right to the root of the thread... when spirit traditionalists see the power of the Ernaldan or Orlanthi priests at work, they would be fairly mightily impressed, and the younger generations might just take a shine to it... and, for that matter, when a regular Joe/lene initiate pops off a Lightning, Thunderbolt or Flight,.. or Bear Fruit or Heal Body... that's pretty impressive, compared to a most of the magic they've ever seen in their lives.

[Brian Duguid]

2 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

However, initiates in the various theistic cults have similar spell access to the tribes who need to go to the shaman for their spells (granted, some limits, especially with some cults), AND they have a bit of god magic to back them up. So, what I'm saying is that the average tribal member in a theist culture has a bit more magic than the average tribal member in the spirit traditions.

Add to that that while you are correct in that spirit traditions can access Rune magic, it is usually a lot more limited than standard theist practices

Well, I'm specifically talking Hsunchen. In rules terms, everyone has to visit a Temple to learn new Rune spells after initiation: the Priests are as much a gatekeeper as a shaman is. And everyone gains access to all Common Rune magic known by their cult at initiation, plus one cult special Rune spell. In practice a starting Hsunchen adventurer begins with the same number of Rune points and access to the same number of cult special spells as their more civilised counterparts.

Most Hsunchen cults have access to very little in the way of Common Rune magic: that's the key difference, and true for other animist cults in general. However, in counter-balance to this, animists can access pretty much any Rune spells that they can learn from an appropriate spirit with their shaman's help - they are not limited to Cult and Associated Cult special spells. This will become a bit more obvious in Cults of Glorantha when the many spirit cults are described as part of the Horned Man shamanic tradition. The Children of Hykim makes extensive use of this possibility.

The animist access to a wider range of spirit magic than is available through a theist cult clearly does not make up for this deficit.

So I agree entirely that animists are generally "under-powered" compared to Gloranthan theists. But perhaps less so than is sometimes perceived. Their much bigger disadvantage in times of conflict is that they rarely organise. No doubt people think they are back in the forests living the simple life again. But who knows what they are up to in there, especially the Rathori still smarting from the loss of the WBE?

12 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

This, in some ways, gets right to the root of the thread... when spirit traditionalists see the power of the Ernaldan or Orlanthi priests at work, they would be fairly mightily impressed, and the younger generations might just take a shine to it... and, for that matter, when a regular Joe/lene initiate pops off a Lightning, Thunderbolt or Flight,.. or Bear Fruit or Heal Body... that's pretty impressive, compared to a most of the magic they've ever seen in their lives.

I'd expect many animists to be able to learn Bear Fruit from a suitable nature spirit, or other examples of fertility magic like Bless Pregnancy, Bounty, Reproduce etc. But yes, they'll only access the more impressive magic if they start hanging out with theists or if their Great Spirit has a typical theist cult as an Associated Cult (very rare!)

But what would a Hsunchen hunter-gatherer do with Lightning? It's hardly relevant to their day-to-day concerns, any more than is a Howitzer to a member of an indigenous tribe in the Amazon. I think they can appreciate that others have powers they don't without caring about it very often. That regular Joe/lene initiate of Orlanth: do they know how to find the akhratish tree and persuade it to share its nuts? Can they ask Grandfather Salmon to summon fish into the local river? No? Useless storm fools!

I think in general Gloranthan cultures value power that is relevant to their daily lives, and to a lesser extent which helps succeed in conflict. And relevance will be greatly defined by the way-of-life that their ancestors taught. For the Hsunchen, they are people who are also animals: they have an animal soul. Would you give up part of your ancestral soul and isolate yourself from your community just for magic that goes Boom? Some clearly do. Equally clearly many do not.

Note in that regard that there are nearly twice as many bear Hsunchen in Rathorela than there are Orlanthi in Dragon Pass. Once a year, when the bear-folk assemble in Bear Grove for their annual rituals, they outnumber the population of the enormous city of Nochet by a factor of ten.

Sticking with tradition can be very much the right choice, in the right environment.

[scott-martin]

26 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

do they know how to find the akhratish tree and persuade it to share its nuts? Can they ask Grandfather Salmon to summon fish into the local river?

I love a lot of this (and will be reading CHILDREN OF HYKIM when I can) but just want to call this bit out as brilliant. This is exactly what we've known since earliest days the God Learners exploited . . . the spirit ecology and economy of the people they encountered, harvesting the various buffs available for short-term fun and profit. And before them, the hrestolic heathen busters. A little of that wonder regenerated but a lot of it went extinct. How The West Was Won.

[Manunancy]

1 hour ago, Brian Duguid said:

But what would a Hsunchen hunter-gatherer do with Lightning? It's hardly relevant to their day-to-day concerns, any more than is a Howitzer to a member of an indigenous tribe in the Amazon. I think they can appreciate that others have powers they don't without caring about it very often.

Probably as an insurance in the odd case they bump into something seriously nasty - sur it's not something you're likely to need very often, but when you need it, you're quite happy to have it (of course flight, teleport or similar 'run away' spells work there too - but won't help you buddies much)

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

15 hours ago, svensson said:

There is no way of living that is better or worse than any other, save of course for criminality.

Sure there is. The better way of living is the one that results in a higher quality of life for the average adherent. There is significant evidence of widespread malnutrition in most of the population of preindustrial agricultural societies while there are strong evidence that the average hunter gatherer suffered from less malnutrition. As such the quality of life of most hunter gathers was higher and therefor their way of living is better. I don’t see how criminality is inherently better or worse than activity the society deems legal. If the expected quality of life of someone who engages in a illegal activity is higher than that of those who do not than it is rational to engage in such behavior.

15 hours ago, svensson said:

Hunter/gatherers are no more 'free' than agriculturalists inasmuch as they are both slaves to weather, disaster, deterioration of natural conditions because of an imbalance of the natural cycles that have nothing to do with the presence of Man.

They are free of the oppression of the aristocracy and they tend to be less vulnerable to individual crops/plants  failing to grow.

while it is flawed l think that sapiens: a brief history of humankind does a good job of describing the consequences of the transition to agriculture on the average individual.

[Eff]

3 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

Sure there is. The better way of living is the one that results in a higher quality of life for the average adherent. There is significant evidence of widespread malnutrition in most of the population of preindustrial agricultural societies while there are strong evidence that the average hunter gatherer suffered from less malnutrition. As such the quality of life of most hunter gathers was higher and therefor their way of living is better. I don’t see how criminality is inherently better or worse than activity the society deems legal. If the expected quality of life of someone who engages in a illegal activity is higher than that of those who do not than it is rational to engage in such behavior.

Not really accurate, I'm afraid- the picture is significantly more complicated. For example, the evidence used by Larsen in the primary source for these statements, "Biological Changes in Human Populations with Agriculture " (Annual Review of Anthropology vol. 24) has been challenged in terms of its direct applicability, as there is an equal degree of variation due to local conditions in peoples with similar diets for the evidence of dental lesions, (https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/703376) and in turn, recent analyses of Catalhoyuk suggest that while there is an increased risk of malnutrition at the time of transition, the longer Catalhoyuk was inhabited (growing the whole time) the lower the frequency of particular bone lesions like tibia diaphysis which are associated with the transition period, and the people of Catalhoyuk consistently ate diets that sustained them to similar levels of nutrition as contemporary humans (https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1904345116#sec-3).

Which is to say, the idea that agriculture was purely a negative was always somewhat suspect given that it was adopted so frequently without evidence of violent domination, and the evidence used to argue it from physiological causes is increasingly pointing towards the idea that agricultural transitions produced stress in communities as they aggregated into denser living environments, rather than that agriculture is bad for your body.

All of this is applicable to hsunchen in that hsunchen claims of a superior way of living should be evaluated as the subjective and value-laden claims they are. (Hsunchen also don't really seem to be strict foragers from the evidence of the Guide, as many appear to be pastoralists and others may well rely on horticulture contra agriculture and reject the plowed field...)

[Bill the barbarian]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:30 AM, mfbrandi said:

Academia.edu is a useful and legitimate source of stuff likely of interest to some Gloranthaphiles.

 

I have to agree great idea for a thread and thanks for the info dump. 

Cheers

On 8/11/2022 at 8:30 AM, mfbrandi said:

Even if that doesn’t fascinate, it quotes from a “Sumerian disputation”, Ewe and Wheat, which might find in-game use:

 

Now ya just gotta know Stafford et al. read this when it was first put out and incorporated it into their ideas on myths. 

 

On 8/11/2022 at 1:54 PM, svensson said:

Besides, one of the first translations from the Cuneiform alphabet was a recipe for beer in lieu of bread for taxes in ancient Sumer. Can't go too far wrong with that. As an aside, for those that might be interested, the Anchor Steam Brewing Company of San Francisco bought the recipe for said beer and did a run of 'Sumerian Ale' [link to the story at the end of this post].

 

Gotta love that, eh?

 

On 8/11/2022 at 2:42 PM, mfbrandi said:

Hello, again. (Gene Wolfe/RQ fiction thread.)

 

Gene Wolfe, ya don’t say... I love me some Gene Wolfe!

 

On 8/12/2022 at 4:25 AM, Darius West said:

Fair enough.  From what I read, the honey goes into the bread, and only indirectly into the beer, though I have had honey beer (I called it Quasimeado).

On 8/12/2022 at 2:58 AM, mfbrandi said:

Beastly!

On 8/12/2022 at 3:45 PM, Brian Duguid said:

Agriculture as a marker of difference is baked into Glorantha through the ongoing survival of people for whom agriculture is taboo: the Hsunchen shapechangers. This dramatises the idea that agriculture was a much a curse as a blessing.

Nice catch, and it also falls very nicely into the Gilgamesh/Enkidu dichotomy that Glorantha mines so well!

On 8/13/2022 at 8:05 AM, JRE said:

Wine travels relatively well because the alcohol content is usually high enough to reduce spoilage. It is also usually the highest alcohol content you can get easily, so that is a drink for dedicated alcoholics. Wine probably did not taste that great for our palates, so adding honey or other taste modifiers was typical, as well as diluting with water to make it drinkable (and the water less dangerous to drink).

 

Nice factoid JRE!

21 hours ago, svensson said:

For that matter, let's not over glamorize  indigenous peoples as living in some idyll like eff'ing Adam and Eve, shall we? Natives aren't born with an innate and 'natural' understanding of the balance of nature and their role in it. Indigenes over-predated areas, suffered sickness and diseases easily cured by modern medicine, warred for no other reason than the enemy was 'somebody else' and made every one of the mistakes that settled people do. They are and were no more virtuous than anyone else for all the mythological 'simplicity' of their lives.

 

Alas, svennson, ya just gotta know me, a long hair from Kanuckistan, well I just gotta disagree. Not to be mean or to contrarian, but to show there are opposing views welcome and def allowed here. Thankfully Brian has me covered with his next post... Very tired ad weak for a long debate or thought.

(Thankfully y’all, svennson and I do not get into matches... he lives, I let live and vis a versa... it seems to flow!)

20 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

Most hunter/gatherer peoples were nomadic, so had the ability to do more about these issues than the agriculturalists, simply by relocating, which just wasn't an option for settled peoples. Indeed several of the early farming communities in West Asia failed, and returned to the hunter/gatherer lifestyle precisely because it was easier to survive in smaller, more mobile groups. And there is ample anthropological evidence that hunter/gatherer communities have less authoritarian cultures than others, and found the submission to authority in agricultural neighbours difficult to comprehend. So while we can accept that there are no absolutes, it's hard not to imagine Gloranthan cultures feeling likewise, especially as it's already written into the official lore.

 

and the rest as well...

 

10 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I love a lot of this (and will be reading CHILDREN OF HYKIM when I can) but just want to call this bit out as brilliant.

Yep, it’s a cool read, no?

 

13 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

Top-level shamans are some seriously scary shit, hence the initial success of the White Bear Empire and before that the Eleven Beasts Alliance, showing what they can do when they work in concert.

Or truly terrifying Shaman Priests, gadzooks!

Thanks Brian.

 

[svensson]

@Bill the barbarian are good. We approach life from very different angles, but that doesn't make either one of us 'wrong', per se. As usual, and just like with everything, the middle ground is where our, um, 'dissertations' [cough-cough] end up.

The sad fact is that we're both infected with the deadly disease of 'Yeah, but'-ism. 😅😁😆

[Bill the barbarian]

yeah but...

 

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

Note in that regard that there are nearly twice as many bear Hsunchen in Rathorela than there are Orlanthi in Dragon Pass. Once a year, when the bear-folk assemble in Bear Grove for their annual rituals, they outnumber the population of the enormous city of Nochet by a factor of ten.

Sticking with tradition can be very much the right choice, in the right environment.

I think that's much less an indicator of the wonders of being a Traditionalist, and much more of the vast (vast vast) majority of them never having real contact with 'civilisation'. Especially not in their younger years, during which the clan/tribe has been saying "stay away from them there fools! They'll taint your blood".

(add to that the reputation of those Hsunchen with the local agriculturalists, and they wouldn't be welcomed anyway, further keeping the Traditions alive).

 

The real test of this would come from when Hsunchen tribes are close to towns and cities, and have a good relationship with those people (to the point of being allowed to stay and live there) - what do the younger Hsunchen do, say and think? (other than "phew, this place stinks!")

[Brian Duguid]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

The real test of this would come from when Hsunchen tribes are close to towns and cities, and have a good relationship with those people (to the point of being allowed to stay and live there) - what do the younger Hsunchen do, say and think? (other than "phew, this place stinks!")

Well, that's the story right there, and it will be much more than just the obvious issues. Different conceptions of the sacred, of property, of authority etc all come into play.

The traditional view is clear: "agriculture, politics, war, priests and wizards" are vices (GtG, pg 21). Anyone "who submits himself to [a deity's] command, like the priests who worship the sun or storm, is a slave forever" (HQ Voices, Rathori shaman). It is taboo to "cut the Grandmother's skin with a plow, [or] bind beasts like a slave" (HQ Voices, Rathori, What my Uncle Told Me). We have the voices of Hsunchen authority figures; it's inevitable that contact with other cultures leads to intra-cultural conflict. I've drawn on that in several places in The Children of Hykim.

6 hours ago, Eff said:

All of this is applicable to hsunchen in that hsunchen claims of a superior way of living should be evaluated as the subjective and value-laden claims they are. (Hsunchen also don't really seem to be strict foragers from the evidence of the Guide, as many appear to be pastoralists and others may well rely on horticulture contra agriculture and reject the plowed field...)

This is the glory of Glorantha. Everything is subjective and value-laden. It's just that, just as IRL, the perspective of the dominant cultures is often seen as having more validity because it's all that we often see. I think all these tropes about the nastiness of agriculture, or the "original affluent society" of hunter-gatherers are to some extent fantasies, and where better to bring that to life and explore what they might mean than in a fantasy game? I quote the Native American chief Kondiarok earlier - it's entirely possible that the words attributed to him were pure invention. But I think it creates a more interesting game world if some of these rather idealistic conceptions (let's just call them "myths", shall we?) are taken literally and brought to life, and then yes, seen to be incomplete and afflicted by contradiction.

Some of those tropes are right there in canon, just waiting for their moment of attention. The skunk-people, the Akkari, "live peacefully in isolation", having a "sensuously indulgent lifestyle" (GtG, pg 233). The original affluent society does exist, in one corner of Fronela, anyway!

Some Hsunchen of course, like the Uncolings and Pralori, canonically eat their own kin. How horrid! But their very recognition that they are kin to animals is radical, in a Glorantha where animals are either "other" - wild beasts - or "property" - domesticated beasts. I think it's clear that Gloranthan canon was written by a human who sees animals as "other": only a human could write that the Uncolings "are reindeer who just happen to be able to turn into humans" (GtG, pg 21) and then later depersonalise the Uncoling reindeer as "their herds" (GtG, pg 233), like property. I think the Hsunchen create a fantastic opportunity to explore a different mindset and see what stories arise from that.

Returning to Shiningbrow's question above: what is it like for a young Hsunchen encountering town and farm people, given that they understand themselves to be a wild beast in human form?

[Shiningbrow]

9 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

it's inevitable that contact with other cultures leads to intra-cultural conflict

Not necessarily.

Sure, very likely, but not "inevitable".

Besides, even if conflict does occur, it can be overcome - as has happened since the beginning of life.

Trade eventually happens, and with trade, occasional (and later more regular) inter-breeding. Both cultures change (although, rarely, in equal proportions).

 

 

16 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

what is it like for a young Hsunchen encountering town and farm people, given that they understand themselves to be a wild beast in human form?

Why did animals allow themselves to be domesticated? Imagine the conversations between the awakened alynxes - one from the wilderness, and one from the town. You're definitely right in one respect - the wilder ones would think the urbanites have been "enslaved", because they took the creature comforts over that freedom. They don't need to travel to get food - food comes to them... from places the wild cat will never get to!

The young Hsunchen will be thinking the same sort of thing. Add in things like clothes (ok, for a shapeshifter, not so important... but differences in cloths will be amazing!), vastly different varieties of foodstuffs... even during the winters. Harder metals, nicer pottery. Amazing smells (mixed in with the stench of the humans).

 

Is it 'better'? Depends on what's important to you...

 

 

22 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

I've drawn on that in several places in The Children of Hykim.

Yeah, I'll get it... after I've finally been paid... I'm sort of between jobs, and moved cities. So, I've gone through so much money in the last month... but, should be able to recover it fairly quickly (assuming they don't fire me! :p)

[Brian Duguid]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

3 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

it's inevitable that contact with other cultures leads to intra-cultural conflict

Not necessarily.

Sure, very likely, but not "inevitable".

Besides, even if conflict does occur, it can be overcome - as has happened since the beginning of life.

Trade eventually happens, and with trade, occasional (and later more regular) inter-breeding. Both cultures change (although, rarely, in equal proportions).

We have useful examples in Glorantha, some explicit and others perhaps obscure. Many Hsunchen peoples were entirely assimilated by agriculturalist colonisers, notably the lowland Hsunchen in Kralorela. Whether they went willingly or not, we don't know. In the West, there were several "post-Hsunchen" peoples who seem to have arisen from various processes of conquest and assimilation: Pendali (lion), Entruli (boar), Enerali (horse), Redeli (bear), Enjoreli (bull), Bemuri (cattle) etc. Even at the Dawn those Western peoples were in most cases fairly distant from any Hsunchen antecedents. The Pelorian bull peoples (KefTavari, Bisosae, Kereusi, Enelvi) appear to have Hsunchen roots related to the Tawari. The Brithini are fairly explicit in claiming racial superiority over the descendents of the "animal-men" (i.e. almost everyone else).

Less explicitly, there is the relationship between Odayla and Rathor, and possibly between Yinkin and Rinkona (down to the myth in Anaxial's Roster which claims that those bobcat / lynx people who allied with the theists conducted purges of those who remained loyal to their animist traditions, resulting in the murder of Rinkona).

Much of the process is what those who were vanquished would IRL term "cultural genocide". Some of it may have been benign.

In Third Age Glorantha, we can easily find examples of peoples who were driven to extinction; peoples who were conquered and assimilated (willingly or otherwise); people who maintain a hybrid culture, as with those Hsunchen who worship Lightbringer deities alongside their ancestral tradition, or the "degenerate descendents of Mraloti Boar Hsunchen" in the Mralot Hills; and even civilised people who romanticise their ancestral past and seek to partially recover lost traditions, as with the Ancient Beast Society in Safelster. Yet despite the best efforts of the "civilising" cultures, many Hsunchen thrive in those areas not yet converted to agriculture, the forests, mountains and jungles, following their traditional ways. Many of these are in active contact with neighboring cultures (the Pralori and some Fronelan tribes who hire out as mercenaries; the Rathori who trade at Pelt Post; the Telmori in Sartar etc) without showing much sign of any inevitable process driving them towards assimilation.

Perhaps there are even Hsunchen tribes made up entirely or mostly of adoptees, refugees from "civilisation" who have chosen to buy into a different myth.

 

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Yeah, I'll get it... after I've finally been paid... I'm sort of between jobs, and moved cities. So, I've gone through so much money in the last month... but, should be able to recover it fairly quickly (assuming they don't fire me! :p)

I hope things work out well, fingers crossed.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Brian Duguid